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Is it a long WBTB? Stabilization? Self awareness? All?
A lot say it is increased awareness.
Can we train to have our LDs very vivid? Is there a technique? I have these dreams occassionaly, and a boost of awareness sometimes does it, like a long WBTB.
Any thoughts?
I've found that self awareness for at least 3 hours straight that one day will boost my vividness of the dreams that night, and my recall would be great.
But I've never been able to go lucid during those nights.
That was fast. Thnx for the rply
You mean like RRC? Or do you use another tech for self-awareness?
Maybe say mantras or something if that works idk. Lol but yea, try self-awareness :D
Mmmmm could be!
Maybe SSILD too increases the awareness in the dream?
As you suggested Louai, a WBTB ( some minutes is enough ) combined with some kind of meditation usually does the trick :)
Edit: not a coincidence that WILDs are more vivid
Thnx!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by VagalTone
Does meditation have a special effect? I watch tv during a WBTB(that is a yes yes for me cuz it makes me more aware but I can still fall asleep) so I become more aware. Does more awareness during the WBTB mean more awareness during dream?
I believe it is heightened awareness as well, but more on the idea that you're conscious which makes you aware. My WILDs are always most vivid because there's never one point in a WILD where you lose consciousness--you are always "awake." In DILDs you still need to "wake up" once you become lucid, which can be helped by stabilization or reminding yourself that you're dreaming, taking in the dreamworld, wondering what it means to be in a dream, testing your waking life memory, etc. I don't have any solid evidence for this, but by personal experience I think this encourages your consciousness (and as a side, your awareness) to kick in more than what's required to just be lucid.
Meditation activates brain areas associated with self awareness so i'm sure you like to hear that :D There's some other reasons why it maybe a good thing to do on a WBTB..Your second question is a bit tricky i guess..but i feel there are some different kinds of awareness. You know that watching TV doesnīt necessarily stimulates your self-awareness otherwise we all would have it.. I think it's pretty standard to say that more awareness during the WBTB mean more vividness during the dream, so yup TV is good for that :D, maybe you can watch TV and do some RCs when you find yourself more emotionally engaged or just check how you feel and think while you watch TV ??Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
Like achieving tholey's 7 conditions for a LD?Quote:
Originally Posted by VagalTone
Yeah I like hearing that:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Maxis
So it is self-awareness we are aiming to increase to have a vivid dream?
Lol, Louaib did you switched questions by mistake ? :P
I would say that any kind of awareness is good to have a vivid dream. But with self awareness you probably achieve lucidity and vividness at the same time !
And if you take in consideration that self awareness can make you lucid, then you can control the vividness of the dream, instead of letting the dream itself control the vividness of your nonlucidity :P
No idea what RRC is but what I do is basically try to focus only on what is happening NOW, not even consider what I'm about to do or what I did a couple minutes ago. Sometimes though it gets me in trouble since someone will ask me to do something and I'll forget what it is in about 3 seconds =)Quote:
RRC
But if it helps, why not do it?
I personally didn't have good experience with SSILD, partly because I have tinnitus that gets worse when I try to focus on hearing, and I kept forgetting to do the cycles when I was nearing sleep.Quote:
Mmmmm could be!
Maybe SSILD too increases the awareness in the dream?
I've found that self awareness helps the most. But I never was able to use self awareness to help with becoming lucid since when I do self awareness my dreams are usually more ordinary looking than real life so I never think to question it.Quote:
So it is self-awareness we are aiming to increase to have a vivid dream?
Yeah I did switch the questions :P
Thnx! Also, doesn't achieving all tholey's 7 conditions (be lucid then achieve the other 5) mean more self awareness?
I donīt know exactly what they are ( although i have glanced at them on a Zoth's post ). From what i remember yes, they are the hallmarks of a fullblown LD, so yes the peak of self awareness training.
can we actually put a goal to do in a Ld, the goal being us becoming lucid then considering these conditions, all of them(like remember we are actually sleeping in bed), then when we intentionaly remember in the LD, our self awareness increases and the LD becomes lifelike?
It's difficult to know if it's the memory that's vivid or the dream itself, but I've found that being well-rested and stress-free seems to result in vivid dreams more often. My longer LDs come from nights full of vivid, long dream recall. And I'm not sure I agree about DILDS and "waking up," it may be the other way around in fact, that lucidity comes at the times where awareness is high or on the rise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxis
In EWOLD, it is stated that stabilization is enough to make the dream more vivid. Couple it with increasing your self awareness and BAM! I like Sivason's stabilization techniques, but a question rises:
If it is as simple as stabilization and increasing your self awareness, then all the LDs of the experts must be lifelike, since these actions are easy for them to do in the begining of a LD, but I'm not sure that most of their LDs are lifelike.
You have a dream yoga workbook in Sivason's class, Fryingman. Would you mind asking him? He gets so much LDs he wants to reduce them!
Waking up from a dream straight away at the end of a rem period instead of going into delta sleep. That's what produces dream recall on par with waking memory. If you try to recall your dreams in the morning you'll only be retrieving the last two sleep cycles of dream material, tops, and the memoris will be 'second hand' on account of passing through a period of NREM unconsciousness. If you want to have waking level vivid recall start training yourself to wake after each sleep cycle and recall your dreams.
Ctharlhie, I agree, but I think if we start with the assumption that one is already waking from one's dreams after each sleep cycle, is there anything else that can be done to raise the vividness of LDs? I have never (that I know of, unless I totally forgot some LDs after losing lucidity) not woken up directly from an LD, and they're mostly very vivid, but some more so than others. My last one was very very unstable so even though I woke up from it directly, it felt "not vivid." My head felt like it was buzzing and I felt dizzy. I think additionally when we're very well rested, the dreams are also very vivid, assuming some stabilization/solid self-awareness. Expectation must also play a role, since I've seen numerous reports of people with vision impairments and doing some dream control to make the "visuals" clear and bright.
I believe that achieving full lucidity in the LD is the action that determines vividness through increasing self-awareness. By 'full lucidity' I tend to think in terms of Deirdre Barret's 'corollaries'.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
The dreamer is aware that they are dreaming
The dreamer knows that objects/character/locations disappear after waking
The dreamer knows that physical laws need not apply in the dream
And the dreamer has a clear memory of the waking world
Self awareness and memory are key. Any awareness practice and the improving dream recall.
More entities in the dream mean more subconscious work, meaning less stable dream. Well then, intention might help in vividness cuz we intend for the sub to produce clearer image. It would be like dream control, in a way, I think.
What would lead you to believe that? On the contrary, I have found the most difficult state to maintain is a dream without visual, or other, input.Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
In an LD I had the night I chanted 'clarity' like a mantra, and the dream progressively increased in apparent tangibility. Not many people know that mood and cognition determine biochemistry, as well as vice versa. It makes sense that auto-suggestion has impact on vividness.Quote:
Well then, intention might help in vividness cuz we intend for the sub to produce clearer image. It would be like dream control, in a way, I think.
This is very much that, what I try to aim at, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxis
I like the idea of chanting - sounds very useful - and nicer than shouting about something - incant it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
Yeah, I quite enjoyed it at the time. It became quite rhythmic, and bigger than my physical voice. It was effective beyond all expectation, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Or as a scientist you might want to inKant it… :shadewink:Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
Maybe I should write an LDing Immanuel.
:laugh::bravo:
Ooh - this sounds very good - I hope, I remember trying it out!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
Naah - can't see a need for Mr. Kant here. :cheeky:Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
I rather thought about "Anathem" by Neill Stevenson - there are two half-mystical schools of "avout" - a sort of monks - the Incanters and the Rhetors.
The former do a lot of "magical" real-life-control by chanting..:D
My favourite book - highly recommended* - I linked the title through to Wikipedia!
What the article fails to mention, is how humorous this book is - and how suspenseful of an adventure and how human and loveable and deep the characters are portrayed - this is a phantastic novel in several senses of this neologism.
^ I've looked at that book before and thought about reading it. Maybe I'll add it to the bedside stack.
And Ctharlhie, if that's anything like what I've experienced a few times falling asleep with music on, where it suddenly becomes amazing and fills your entire world and becomes a powerful rhythm moving through and all around you, then yeah - sounds pretty cool. I've also experienced it without music playing, usually if I'm fixated on a song that I can't get out of my head.
Yeah that's exactly it! Happens sometimes during hypnagogia when I'm merely imagining music. Amazing experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
Our diet helps vividness too. Biochemistry, like you said. Mantras must help. Yaaaaay!
As for the less entity thing:
Sivason uses a very effective stabilization tech which is tofocus on one entity only while letting the other entities fade away. I think that means more entities equal less stabilization, I THINK.
As I recall what Sivason wrote, the emphasis was on "reducing the processing load on the brain" and "allowing the brain dream processor to reboot". So the emphasis is on creating a simpler scene. Is that really what's happening? Maybe....if the dreamer believes it entirely, then it seems to work! Maybe that's what's most important?
Well recently to stabilize my dream, I just kept feeling a fence that was near me and putting rust and stuff onto it until it looked as real as a real fence, then that made the whole world look and feel just as real.
I was outside as well, so there was quite alot of objects to 'render' into real life imagery.
This is extremely interesting! I'd like to hear more experiences like this. Did influencing a part of the dream to be more life like influence the whole dream to be? Do you think it was pure expectation effect, or a way the subconscious was 'inspired' by your act to increase the reality of all it's landscape as so?Quote:
Originally Posted by PKJacker
P.S: I hope I'm not bumping this thread, because I don't think I need to make a new thread about the same subject, especially that I want to continue with this perticualr conversation
What I found last night, was that it was good to first concentrate just on a small patch of ground, and take a look around slowly, not whip my head about, when just before having gotten lucid.
I guess some of my optical problems at the onset of LDs had something to do with that. Not sure, though.
But it kind of resonates with some of the advice in here - "re-booting", starting with something small, confined and getting it stable before trying to take everything in at once.
Interesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
I don't seem to be affected by this so much, since I can move around inside the dream without losing lucidity, but always end up losing it because I reach a moment of fear of the LD ending.
I should try this next time I'm lucid, to Fuchs on one part of the dream and make it more vivid, so then hopefully the whole dream will become vivid.
Lol but I'm still struggling each time just to teleport, never succeeded much.
Well I'll ghet the REM Dreamer soon, so I'll have lots of chances to practice control and increasing dream awareness and vividness! I'll couple this stabilization tech with rubbing my hands(should I?), and add it to my reflection-intention.
Also might order calea Z too, which will be awesome for generating realistic vivid aware dreams and LDs, and it's not expensive!!!(of course a 100$ a month wouldn't be expensive for us LDers in return for vivid aware LDs ;) ) It costs like 9$ and lasts for a good while
Something I read recently on another thread that resonated strongly with me is the idea of carrying something around with you at all times in your hand, like a favorite drink in a bottle, and taking a drink from it every few minutes. Provides multiple senses engagement with the dream environment. I'll try that the next time I can remember it :).
Ooh cool!!Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Not only is it effective, but also very cool! I can't wait to tell my DCs that it's some magical juice that keeps me more in this alternate body lol(I tell my DCs that I'm a teleporter, because I like having the LD world run even though I'm not always in it):D
Yeah,Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
I wrote something a couple of years ago about walking round with a Banana I'd picked up and took bites of it throughout the Lucid, that seemed to work well the times I tried it.
My reasoning behind this is that it sets a framework for the rest of the dream, before everything was unclear and unrealistic, so I did what I wanted it to be and the rest followed the clarity.Quote:
Did influencing a part of the dream to be more life like influence the whole dream to be? Do you think it was pure expectation effect, or a way the subconscious was 'inspired' by your act to increase the reality of all it's landscape as so?
Fascinating! I'm gonna try it next time. Thnx for answering :DQuote:
Originally Posted by PKJacker
Usually when I get lucid it's all very blurry, but sometimes I feel the urge to open my eyes (which feels really difficult), I can see but my eyes feel closed so I try opening them with all my might and then they pop open and I can see stuff 2x sharper than IRL.
And when you're done with the Calea, because it tastes like Dementors in liquid form (if you're into the Harry Potter universe :), otherwise: Calea tastes bitter beyond all prior imagination), then you might try ordinary oregano (oregano vulgaris). I've found that it too can increase dream time massively, like Calea does. Not sure about vividness though, but that is also not Caleas strongest point, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
How do you prepare the oregano?
Hm. I don't quite understand your thinking - you sound like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
"Yeah - I might try to make my dream more optically vivid by focussing my attention on something.
But I cannot even "just" teleport! - So how should I manage to focus my attention on a flower, if I can't even teleport?"
Can you see, what I am getting at here?
Focussing attention is simpler and basic - teleportation is advanced dream-control.
Yeah - exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by LDman
My last LDs were quite nice concerning optics - but I have exactly this feeling often as well. It seems to take an immense effort to rip them open.
One time I forced the issue and ended up awake with eyes wide open, looking disappointedly at real life.
When I'll have that again - I plan to pretend to have a hood, or scarf or something over my head - and take that off.
I would like to know more about this too, please!Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldmer
How do you prepare it, how much, when to consume it - and what do you mean with prolonged dream-time?
General REM prolongation? Or maybe recall for wider patches? Or even more lucid time than usually, once there?
How many times have you done this? Do you still do - and if not - why not?
Please don't feel like under inquisition here - it's just, that I have and quite like the stuff - and I'd love to find some new magic in my kitchen! ;-)
Preparing the oregano is like any other herbal infusion; pouring water (just off the boil) over the dried, shredded herb, and letting it steep for at least 10 minutes. Actually, I let it steep for an hour or so. I drink it immediately before bedtime.
So far, I have used 1 tsp. of the dried, shredded herb with very good effect, and 1/2 tsp. also with some effect. In all, I have probably tried this about 5 times. The statistics are therefore still quite uncertain. [Edit: actually 8 times, but the statistics are still quite uncertain].
In my view, tolerance develops quickly, and more than two days in a row is likely not going to be a success. [Edit: the beneficial effect seems gone already on the second night].
With "increased dream time" I mean that both Calea and Oregano, in my experience, increase REM time at the cost of deep sleep time. This has a weird distorting effect on time perception. Many times I have woken up after a dream, feeling like many hours must have passed since I went to bed, because so much has been happening in the dreams, only to realise, that I've slept for less than 45 minutes! Normally, there is little time spent in REM during the early part of the night, but that changes drastically with Calea - and oregano too, I think - which tricks the mind into believing, that the awakening happened much later in the night, than was actually the case.
I suggest trying oregano a few times, but not on consecutive nights.
Fantastic Voldmer - this is everything and exactly what I was asking you - and the more different substances one brings into play - the longer one can make the cycles, rotating supps to avoid repetition with tolerance. I still did not get at the topic properly - reading up and acting - but oregano is easily available just like peppermint, if that really does something - not sure there. I can even grow them myself next to my basil!
Attachment 7265
I can testify the effect of menthol (mint) on dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by StephL
@Voldmer: That sounds very handy! Especially that celea is only available by shipping. But yeah I've heard it tastes really bitter, so I'll buy them in capsule forms, but I can take the bitterness, I mean I would drink anything, ANYTHING, for the sake of better LDs! :)
@StephL: I was just talking dream control wise, didn't mean to sound like I'm associating the 2 sentences. Actually I'm working on a little trick for full dream control, the 3 phrases technique:
First phrase: Function( I say what function I want to activate( Eg : teleport function Eg2: Summon function))
Second phrase: Subject( I say the subject that the function will work on (eg: My bedroom Eg2: Chocolate cake))
Third phrase: Specificity (I place a condition that would allow only one possible outcome (eg: closet eg2: my hand))
Eg and eg2 from each phrase are one dream control action (first one to teleport to my bedroom, to be specific my closet, and second to summon a chocolate cake, on my hand)
This can work with anything at all!
It's even cooler for dream vividness: Vividness function, whole dream. There is no 3rd phrase, Instead a 'knob' should pop up, like a volume control in androids (that glows if you want!), that you raise to raise the dream vividness (and senses and awareness) gradually.
Pretty cool no? I like it because it's simple, fast, wide ranged, and effective(I guess it is) since it feels like a controlling function that is supposed to do what we choose it to do (expectation).
I think it's just memory. When I'm dreaming, they are just as vividly realistic as when I'm awake. But as I forget the dream in the morning, it becomes less and less vivid. The same applies to my waking life. As I forget things that happened, those experiences seem more hazy and unclear. The main difference is that most of the time I am in waking life, and it's pretty easy to remember things from 1 second ago, making it seem very vivid. When I'm in a lucid dream, it is always just as vivid as waking life.Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
Another potential for vivid dreams might be in terms of more unusual details and settings that we don't normally see in waking life? In that case, creativity seems to play a big part.
Interesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmaven
It does make sense, but some supplements can make LDs more vivid, so this isn't related to dream content. Memory still sounds like a main factor, but I doubt it's the only one. Also stabilization increases the vividness right when we are inside a LD, so yeah I guess there are still more factors.
Yes I more and more realize that all my dreams are experienced vividly, it's just the memory of that vividness and detail that starts to fade with waking. I think though that the closer to lucidity one is while dreaming, the less damaging to dream memory the transition to waking is. Waking from a lucid dream with good awareness is basically no transition at all: everything goes right into the conscious memory bank.
So I do believe that it is more than just memory: the closer you are to lucidity, the more "awake" you are in your dreams, the better you will remember those dreams (which means the more "vivid" they will seem).
It is no coincidence that supplements that cause "vivid dreams" also can cause insomnia: the result is a more awake brain.
Just random question please,, when ld were are u in that dream and does it change alot???
I just noticed this thread, and couldn't help but notice that the discussion is more about memory than vividness. In the end it really is all about memory, isn't it? In the world of dreaming we're really never measuring vividness (or lucidity) when we're there as much as we are remembering an event as best we can.
I'm sure that this has been said, but as long as I'm here: For me, a lucid dream is a waking-life consciousness event, so it is immediately stored in the same sort of memory bucket that any other exciting conscious event occupies -- as opposed to non-lucid dream, which slide from memory quite quickly, having almost no memory bucket at all to occupy.
I think I've also said once or twice on other threads that, from a here & now standpoint, lucidity has nothing to do with vividness: you can be incredibly lucid during the dullest of dreams, and not lucid at all during the most vivid of dreams -- and vise-verse.
For me not so much the change as its the ld part ,,but others,,,,,,,cant be sureQuote:
Originally Posted by abcde
Yeah this does make sense, about the memory fading according to the gap between the LD and waking up. But still, aren't details increased when we stabilize inside a LD? I mean, the world becomes clearer and more detailed when I focus on making it so. But that might not be related to vividness as much as 'summoning' those extra details I guess.
So awareness plays a role too because the more we are aware, the more details from the dream that will be stored in our memory, thus the dream will be remembered better and with more details when we wake up. Makes sense.
There are different dream vividness levels though, right? Do we have dull dreams just because of low memory of it? And more awareness gives more memory? So all dreams are of same vividness, it just depends on how much we store in our memory? And the difference in dream vividness while we are lucid? I mean we can spot increasing vividness as we stabilize inside a LD. Is that because we 'summon' more details and textures, not actually increase dream vividness?
What a great idea, summoning detail! Think about it, everything in a dream requires attention to exist. We've essentialised this 'dream state' that can be more, or less, 'realistic', but really how is detail any different to the nightmarish monster pursuing you? Both will vanish if you stop paying attention, both are simply objects of attention. These objects do not have an independent existence, all are products of expectations based on mental schema; sometimes photorealistic, sometimes videogamy, sometimes cartoony - there's no 'natural' or 'absolute' dream state, only attention fueled schemata.Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
Increased awareness leads to greater attention leads to greater memory, this is the principle of ADA and why it benefits recall so much as well as LD induction.
Yes, but I'd say that objects and places in dreams don't 'require' attention to exist. Think about it, when you open a dream door and a whole new place appears, you did not focus on any of it, maybe not even the possibility of that setting at all! The subconscious still has a big part in generating the dream objects and places, and that is what makes me think about dream vividness not only being about memory, but also how much detail we and our subconscious generate to it, though my only defense for this is the fact that the dream becomes HD and more detailed often when we stabilize or will it to, but again, it might just be extra detail summoning, wait, which is what vividness essencially is, right? The dream is more vivid because of more details. So this means that regular dreams, can be more vivid, not just because we remembered them better (due to gab between dream and waking, and also awareness and brain chemistry that effect memory stirring), but also because our subconscious integrated more details to it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
So there is different vividness to regular and lucid dreams, it is how much details we and our subconscious integrate to the dream, other than the memory storing.
Also ppl think that because a dream was vivid, they remembered it better, but it is the opposite. Because they remembered the dream better, it was vivid (since they remembered more details). This is a defense to the memory part of dream vividness (which I totally support), and I'm still ready to debate the details part being the second factor of dream vividness. I mean, it must be, it makes perfect sense that other than the memory, how much details are incorporated to the dream increase it's vividness! I don't mean it awareness wise, but actual dream content.
On a side note, ADA may increase our focus and thus details to dreams, but induction wise, extra details don't help in becoming lucid, because we already do notice the monsters and irrational things in our non lucid dreams, but the problem is our semantic memory that fails to remind us that these things aren't normal. So, ADA doesn't fix that, thus not much effect in induction as to that particular point.
Could anyone give a straight up definition of a natural, everybody tends to say different things, like one has ld every day, or they started at a very young age, my story's a bit long and emotionally confusing for me to just write it in a random thread, i just want some simple answers, it was a curse for me in the beginning, then i just give in to its uncontrolable effects it had on my life ,,," here i am , i do know im dreaming, and ill have deal with it in silence" on this site i feel my silence has been broken, but still feel the people im talkinging to or the ones listening will never real understand or ever grasp the depth of truth im looking for,,, natural or no natural means shit to me , what i know means everything,,,,,your the creator of everything in your dreams, even you thoughts, ie " i can fly" is a thought u created, or "is this a dream" yet another thought you created,,,,, gods lucid dream called reality is one of the most elaborate creations anyone has thought up,,,, shit it even has feelings and emotions ( a far cry from the creation of jumping of a building and been imortal"*****don't be afraid****
Creating flying and imortality in a dream is one thing,,,,next time u ld try creating the best feeling ever, a place of pure emotion, and true love with no broken hearts,and why not throw a few superpowers in for good measures,,, then you will start to begin to understand the question everbodys asking them selves ,,,,WHATS IT ALL ABOUT,,, the world according to abcde *****DONT BE AFRAID OF THE TRUTH*****
LDs are defiantly wonderful and so amazing! You get to have self awareness, all your senses, emotions, and desires, and be able to control everything and see how the dream world around you is influenced by your wildest emotions and desires! I defiantly have a philosophical view of reality. I think of it as an illusion. LDs shouldn't be dismissed just because they "aren't real"(oh what, they aren't real just because they aren't waking life?!). I say if you can see it, feel it, and enjoy it, then it is real, because real is what we can interact with, what can influence and effect us.Quote:
Originally Posted by abcde
About the natural thing, it is simply someone who has a regular amount of LDs without practicing. It doesn't matter how much he has them (as long as that amount can be considered a regular amount though), or when he started having them, it just matters that he started having them without willing them, like, unintentionally having them, without practice. Of course naturals aren't so different than us, they don't have any special extra brain parts that help them, they just have more potentials that pushed them to the lucidity 'threshold' , but this subject is still vague.
Tl;dr: A natural is someone who started having LDs unintentionally, without practicing or willing them.
U say " this part is still vague" every one has intense dreams to the point they wake up, that is point of a ld to be or not to be , an unatuaral can train to realize this point and take it further, ie ld, a natural gets to this point in a dream and is just naturally trained to take it to an ld,,,, i think i may have understood the word natural a bit more today, after 100+ ld ( lost count about 10 years ago) its all making a bit more sense,,,,*****DONT BE AFRAID OF THE TRUTH, LD MAKES U JUST A BIT OLDER AND WISER THAN U WERE YESTERDAY****KEEP YOUR INTELLIGENCE TO YOURSELF, AFTERALL NO ONE LIKES A BIG HEAD****
For the sake of clarity, when I'm saying attention, expectation, etc., I'm referring to their usage by The Cusp in this thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...m-control.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
This is where things get theoretical. You're in a room in a dream, what is outside that room? The walls of your skull. We don't make any physical movements, it would be more accurate to say that the dream moves around our point of attention.
When you open the door you have shifted your attention to a new environ, which could be anything. Think of your attention as an empty space that is filled in by your unconscious but is nonetheless constitutive of that very filling-in. Afterall, there wouldn't be a dream without you there to witness it. Attention can be thought of as empty, non-physical dreamspace.
I'm not a big fan of the term stabilisation, because it implies a duality between dreamer and dream. When we stabilise, really we focus our awareness by attending to the sensory immersion of the dream as opposed to the sensory immersion of our waking life bodies.
I feel a need to say this, because "vivid" appears to be interpreted quite differently in this thread, from how I use the word.
To me, a vivid dream is one where my "inner" senses receive particularly strong signals. I.e. the sound volume is loud, the colours are very bright, textures feel very intensely, etc. Memory plays no direct part in this, and neither does the level of detail. There could be one single petal from one single flower in the dream, and nothing else, and it might not remind me of anything at all, but still it could be an intensely vivid dream.
I'm not a native speaker of English though, so my usage of the word may be excentric.
When I'm using the word 'detail' I mean the same as your usage of the word 'vividness'. When I say detail I do not mean one petal or one hundred, but the quality of said petals.
Why do you think that memory plays no part in vividness?
@Ctharlhie Sorry I interpreted what you meant by attention as focus. I thought you meant we need direct focus on something in the dream or else it won't interact with us. Clearly you meant we need attention, as in be in our field of 'interaction' (as in we can interpret it and what is happening, essentially what can effect us). My bad, sorry.
And you are right, I guess nothing happens where you can't see, but what I meant is like, if there is a monster in the room and you shift your attention to something else, this won't stop the monster from like hitting you, yes because he is still part of your 'attention field' that can effect you.
@Voldmer oh I was using the word vivid as in clarity, like let's say an HD(resolution level), and details and textures. When ppl say "increase the dream's vividness by stabilizing", they mean the clarity and details part, right?
For the same reason that I do not think memory is involved if I turn up the volume on my stereo. The impression gets stronger, but I don't have to remember anything in order to experience it. It's just the direct experience of the current condition which is made more forceful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
Of course memory is necessary to remember the vivid dream, and better recall will - almost by definition - involve more details remembered. But that's just the memory of the dream; it's not the dream itself.
Maybe they do. But if I ask for more vivid dreams, what I hope for is a more intense experience - less dull. A non-vivid dream to me is like being somewhat drunk in waking reality, where you don't really experience the world all that intensely, because your senses have been dulled down. A vivid dream is like sobering up. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by LouaiB
Oh, so esencially it's that we are not aware enough to soak it all up, so we feel it is dull. Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldmer
So I would say there are 3 categories:
_Awareness: How much aware we are (like being sober not drunk)
_Memory: How much of the dream was saved to the memory (more details saved means dream feels more detailed and senses and emotions remembered)
_Details: basically how much details there is inside the dream( like let's say a table with that flowy surface texture vs solid Single color, or a mountain with all it's roughness vs a dull looking mountain( imagine a full dream scene with low textures, it's like a bad art piece vs a good art piece))
I think these are factors that play.
The concept of decibel doesn't have any more bearing in a dream than the concept of metres. When you turn up the volume on your stereo there is a material effect in terms of the vibration of the speaker cones, those vibrations as sound waves in the air which then excite your ears and finally are interpreted as electrical signals in the brain. In a dream all you have is electrical signal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldmer
I don't necessarily disagree with you completely, I just want to explore this idea of vividness as memory as far it will go. :P
Also, even that physical stereo in your waking life is being remembered, albeit so quickly we don't notice. Everything we experience is working memory relayed by the hippocampus at such a speed that it appears as continuous sensation.
Well I've been pondering this "vivid" thing for a while now. I can remember that a dream was vividly experienced even if I cannot conjure up the details in to my waking mind. But this doesn't happen all the time, sometimes the entire dream session is hazy. And sometimes I have detailed memory remain upon waking.
Although my most favorite aspect of "vivid" that I enjoy is the feeling of vivid awareness: that it's really me there, responding to dream stimuli, acting, and observing the results, even non-lucid. That's the best.
And every non-lucid dream I've woken from directly without passing through more NREM is like that! Like a waking event that I've just lived out. I honestly believe that it is the passage through deep sleep and the way it distorts memory that affects vividness, and the sooner that technology can wake us directly from dreams, the sooner we'll start experiencing the entire day as a lived event (lucid dreams or not - although such technology will undoubtedly help in the pursuit of lucidity).Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
^^ Interesting. Yes, 3 nights ago I summoned up the willpower to record after every waking (didn't quite achieve that, I woke more than I recorded I believe), and I ended up with such a cool collection of remembered scenes:
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/fryi...rn-body-58433/
And two nights ago it was such a "I was *there*!" experience (right after the linked one above).
Yes I guess the trick is waking yourself before dipping back into NREM. I think that's where being generally caught up on your sleep plays into better recall: if you're too tired you simply fall right away back into sleep without the chance to even summon any willpower to wake up enough to recall and the dream memory is severely shredded.
It never ceases to amaze me to realize how much we dream every night, and it's upsetting that so much of it is lost forever. So much funny/strange/interesting stuff.
Me too, right after waking from a dream. This may be because the memory is still intact, and we feel we were very aware, but still it is not entirely about memory, and how a weaker memory of the dream makes us feel we weren't very aware, because, don't forget, WBTB serves to increase our awareness in dreams, so awareness does vary. No, wait a second, maybe it is all about memory. WBTB doesn't increase awareness, it changes the brain chemistry allowing us to remember the dream better, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Edit: there is a way to always succeed in waking ourselves up right after a dream, use a REM Dreamer, and set the light power to max so it will wake you up during REM (I think you can set the time when during REM for the light cue to activate (like maybe 20 minutes after initiation of REM) so you would have time to actually dream.
There was a fascinating study I read about where students were hooked up to EEG machines while sleeping; those woken during REM reported vivid, life-like narrative experiences; those woken 5 seconds after REM ended reported your classic kind of dream recall; and those woken a few minutes after REM ended reported only hazy half-remembered images.
I can't remember the source now, but when I do, I'll post it here.
Gives new meaning to "Gone in 60 seconds"....
Aw man just 5 seconds? Yeah I suppose that feels right. I only a few times have woken "aware" from a non-lucid, actually feeling the dream fade, into being fully awake, and the recall from that dream was amazing, like a lucid just without realizing I was dreaming. I guess those were nearly-lucid at the end. Otherwise there's always this darn discontinuity that seems to sap away the details. It's possible that it involves falling back into NREM before realizing you've woken.
One thing's for sure: when I have an active and operational "wake up after every dream" intention, my recall is wayyyy better. Like 17 paragraphs vs. 3-4 sentences.
Daggum it that intention never works for me! I can sleep through a hurricane, literally! I slept through a gas station explosion a few blocks away, literally! Lol (or woke up then fell asleep right back lol). I'm such a deep sleeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
This gives me hope that it's mostly memory issue, meaning I can have crystal clear memory of amazing HD dreams if I directly wake myself up from it !
Interestingly, the "wake up after every dream" intention worked for me right from the start, as did "I remember my dreams". I also used LaBerge's "I have interesting and meaningful dreams." . You have to *really* want that waking one. However, I let it drop a bit, and I believe that my progress has stalled a bit due to that.
The competitions really helped since you get points for any recall, so there is strong motivation to reach for the DJ upon every waking.
There's no doubt that waiting until morning to do recall causes detail to seriously suffer.
As a middle-ground, if I'm just too wiped out to actually record, I will remain still and do recall, and try to maintain a running list of dream keywords from waking to waking. Sometimes they all seem to make it to morning, sometimes not. But I think that's better than "sleeping through".
If possible, you may want to try some daytime naps to take off the edge of your deep sleep at night. Or alarms, even, if you sleep that deeply.
Here's the case, literally 30% of the time, I don't even remember turning off the alarm, and I have the alarm far from the bed so I have to vet up to turn it off! LolQuote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
The recall intention works wonders for me, but it's just this waking up after each dream that is pretty impossible lol. I'm seriously gonna buy the REM Dreamer, cuz less than 20 LD during my first year isn't satisfying me.
Yeah I found Laberge's affirmations very effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by FryingMan
Imo one of the most successful LDers here, Brandonboss, recalls around 10 dreams a night, and can have nearly as many lucids, because he is so in tune with his micro-awakenings.
Also, I found a paper on dreams and memory. It's not the same one I was thinking of, but it's certainly relevant: http://apsychoserver.psych.arizona.e...ent%202011.pdf
^^ Wow. How about not getting back into bed then for a bit? Or eating a chocolate covered espresso bean (or more)?
Now known as Sensei if you wanted to check out his threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctharlhie
Yes, Sensei is amazing :). The trick is how to get in touch with those micro-awakenings, and not be tired all day long.
Huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ Dreamer ~
Who else namechanged while I was gone?
*cracks knuckles*
Everybody buckle up, this is gonna get messy.
Vividness has always been interesting to me, as a conceptual framework from which to approach the study of dreams and lucid dreaming. In many models, it's very easy to segregate vividness, clarity, detail, whatever you want to call it, from the usual core concepts (like dream control or lucidity for instance). As if it's some nebulous thing that doesn't belong in traditional models! But vividness actually follows very distinct patterns and rules in the context of both lucid and non-lucid dreaming.
Let us first consider the difference between lucid dreams and non-lucid dream from a neurological perspective. A cursory glance into the literature reveals activity in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex which is only present during lucid dreams. "So what?" you wonder aloud. Well, for those unaware, that section of the brain is most closely associated with self-awareness and....wait for it....working memory. And working memory is responsible for your ability to not only focus, but process information (through retrieval and storage of long-term memories).
The astute among you will have noticed by now. Tell me: what are the three fundamentals necessary for lucid dreaming? That's right, Sageous! Self-awareness, focus, and memory! And so, when we develop these aspects of ourselves, we strengthen the pathways allowing our dorsolateral prefrontal cortex to activate while we're asleep. And that activation inevitably results in lucidity! Cool!
"But vividness!" you shout, expecting me to hear, "What has any of this got to do with what causes vividness?" Good question! But patience is important, and this writing stuff takes awhile! To understand how vividness occurs, you must first understand how dreams are formed. This takes us to the non-lucid dreaming portion of the tour. Please--no flash photography.
BillyBob does a great job of explaining it! I explain it at a slightly higher and metaphorical level! Read the relevant parts--the rest is extra credit and won't be on the final exam. Great, now you know how dream formation works! Which means you now understand--really and truly understand--that images in all dreams are formed from memories. The stronger the memory, the stronger the associations to that memory, the more vivid the imagery. This is why focusing all your attentions on a single object--or group of objects--or part of the dreamscape--will bring out more and more detail and vividness. Thus, the level of detail--the level of realism--is directly determined by the net strength of all associations and their schematic tangents. In layman terms, the better you know the environment and the objects in that environment, the more vivid things will be.
Of course, with lucid dreams, you have the benefit of working memory, which allows you to traverse synaptic passages and retrieve or store memories as easily and naturally as you would if you were awake. Of course, the simple biological laws of dream formation are still in effect--but that's beside the point. The point being that lucidity gives you the ability to directly affect how vivid a dream can be, precisely because you've activated your dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. Yay!
Please leave your valuables on the seat on your way out of the vehicle. Thanks, and have a pleasant evening!
