Thread: Memory: the Forgotten Fundamental

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

I've had LDs in the past where I suspect that my waking awareness had actually impaired my dream control. In those instances, I wonder if perhaps my waking preconceptions of what is and isn't possible had somehow snuck their way into my dream as part of my waking awareness? After all, some of my most controllable LDs have been ones where I've had little-to-no waking awareness...like there were no waking presumptions to counteract my will. Or maybe this inhibition of dream control only occurs when you have partial waking awareness? I need to experiment more with this memory thing to find out if my dream control increases, decreases, or stays the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if something like this is what I'm struggling with. In higher-level LDs, it's really hard for me, I suspect, to shake off my “real-life laws of physics” mentality. The reason for short LDs could be very similar. I've become conditioned to expect LDs to be short to the point where I tend to rush through things, and it's quite difficult to overcome the need to “get even one thing done before the dream ends” and actually take my time and enjoy myself for once. And it's really hard to unlearn a decade of that kind of conditioning! My challenge right now seems to be to somehow figure out how to do that.

We seem to have drifted off topic again, as this is not a dream control thread. Here are a few thoughts that might get the discussion back to memory:

Originally Posted by Sensei

In the dream I knew where I was sleeping, who I was, how old I was, etc. I ended up going into a FA because I knew exactly where I was and I lost lucidity. :/ A little strange considering the self awareness. Looking at the other dreams on there. I can say that I don't usually think about waking life more than "I am dreaming", but I definitely have memory in them, memory of past dreams. This makes it so that when I try to do a dream control, I remember how to do it from last time, If I want to go to a place I can remember how to get there, what it looks like, who DCs are, different things that I have done in dreams, etc. This is why I often repeat dream goals (and pick repeatable goals). Gaining awareness of the waking state didn't seem to do much for me, but that might be because I have done something quite similar in the past (lucid = Lying Under Covers In Dream) to remember where I was. So I know where I am usually, but that is all the waking memory that I usually have. I know what a dream is and all, but I don't know much about memory other than that. I am gonna try accessing near memories and far away memories next. I am hoping to be able to remember the previous day every time I am in a dream. That way it can be more linear with waking.

Remembering past dreams is still remembering, I believe... and this also implies that your connection to memory was already pretty solid.

You should not be trying to remember or think about waking life at all. Yes, thinking about waking life will probably end lucidity and even wake you up, because it might act as an instruction to your unconscious and body that you do not want to be sleeping anymore. It also takes your mind off the dream, and minimizes your participation in it in a subtle sort of way, so FA's seem likely too.

Remembering that you have a waking body sleeping peacefully in your bed (or remembering the date/time, etc.) should be as far as the thought should go... you don't need to consider the significance of that, and certainly don't need to include its general context in the thought (don't intellectualize about waking life). All you need to do is give your mind something "real" to briefly latch upon, to crack open the door to your memory.

In other words you were probably doing enough already in knowing who you were, because such knowledge demands some confirmation from memory to be correct. I could imagine that doing more might lead you away from lucidity... lucidity that for you already included a reconnection with memory.

And, finally, keep in mind that all this is not about recalling specific episodic memories. It is about regaining a connection with your overall global memory, the part of your mind that completes the definition of "You." Recalling specific memories can be a fun (or very frustrating, if you have no access to memory) exercise, but it really won't do much good with reconnecting you to your memory. Of course, I'm not sure you can accurately recall specific memories when lucid without access to memory, so as an exercise for gaining access to memory this seems a bit redundant.

[P.S. As usual, TheUncanny paired all this down to one clear sentence already, when he told you, "Instead of increasing your lucidity in the dream, I wonder if this exercise is creating a sense of detachment from the dream. I could see something like that resulting in false awakenings, or even real ones." Sure wish I could do that!]

Originally Posted by Travis E.

I wouldn't be surprised if something like this is what I'm struggling with. In higher-level LDs, it's really hard for me, I suspect, to shake off my “real-life laws of physics” mentality. The reason for short LDs could be very similar. I've become conditioned to expect LDs to be short to the point where I tend to rush through things, and it's quite difficult to overcome the need to “get even one thing done before the dream ends” and actually take my time and enjoy myself for once. And it's really hard to unlearn a decade of that kind of conditioning! My challenge right now seems to be to somehow figure out how to do that.

If you can't shake off your "'real laws of physics mentality," you probably were not in a high-level lucid... sorry if that sounds harsh; I say it respectfully.

It may have felt like one, but if you had strong self-awareness and memory on hand (my opinion of high lucidity), you would not have given a thought to laws of physics, much less still retained a (non-lucid) mentality that they still existed in your dream.

The real irony here is that if your access to memory was at a waking-life self-awareness level, the "physical" constraints you feel, and perhaps that conditioning to expect short LDs's (though that could have been something else altogether, which 3Cat already addressed), would probably become irrelevant, because you will simply "know" that stuff is irrelevant. The presence of memory in your dream dramatically confirms the non-reality of your dream, and the fact that all this stuff is inside your head. Physical laws become meaningless when you can know, without having to think about it, that they simply do not need to be present in a world comprise of noting but your imagination.

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

I've had LDs in the past where I suspect that my waking awareness had actually impaired my dream control. In those instances, I wonder if perhaps my waking preconceptions of what is and isn't possible had somehow snuck their way into my dream as part of my waking awareness?

I think I already said this to Travis, but those preconceptions would do just the opposite, were waking-life self-awareness and memory fully on hand. Your preconceptions will amplify the non-reality of the dream, and not diminish it. If they're creeping in in a manner that impairs your control, you might actually be experiencing your self-awareness and memory levels creeping out a bit. I'm sorry, again, if this sounds harsh or condescending (it was not meant to be!) but I think it needed mentioning: because memory has been so forgotten in the lexicon of the LD'ing community, I can see how you can assume you are very lucid even though memory is not accessed.

After all, some of my most controllable LDs have been ones where I've had little-to-no waking awareness...like there were no waking presumptions to counteract my will. Or maybe this inhibition of dream control only occurs when you have partial waking awareness? I need to experiment more with this memory thing to find out if my dream control increases, decreases, or stays the same.

I think I would go with the "partial" waking awareness conclusion. Take the next step up -- regain access to memory -- and that impairment will most certainly be cured.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think I already said this to Travis, but those preconceptions would do just the opposite, were waking-life self-awareness and memory fully on hand. Your preconceptions will amplify the non-reality of the dream, and not diminish it. If they're creeping in in a manner that impairs your control, you might actually be experiencing your self-awareness and memory levels creeping out a bit. I'm sorry, again, if this sounds harsh or condescending (it was not meant to be!) but I think it needed mentioning: because memory has been so forgotten in the lexicon of the LD'ing community, I can see how you can assume you are very lucid even though memory is not accessed.

In retrospect, perhaps the term "waking awareness" is a bit of an entendre. A more accurate term would be my "waking mentality", or the manner in which I think while in waking life. Part of this mentality is logic and awareness, such as recognizing when I'm in a dream, and that dreams are illusions not bound by physical laws. However, another part of this mentality consists of conditioned preconceptions about the fundamental nature of reality, and these deeply engrained constructs are not always receptive to the logic/awareness you try to impose while in a lucid dream.

Personally speaking, I've had far more LDs where I've felt "limited" in some way than those where I've felt completely unbound by limitations. And because most of my LDs have been WILDs, I feel confident in saying that this wasn't the result of not understanding the circumstances. But despite knowing without a doubt that I was dreaming, and despite knowing that dreams were not real, I often felt like I was swimming against an invisible current that insisted things behaved a certain way. Sometimes my will would trump this current, sometimes it wouldn't, but rarely has that current ever not been present to some degree in my dreams. I suppose it's my subconscious.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think I would go with the "partial" waking awareness conclusion. Take the next step up -- regain access to memory -- and that impairment will most certainly be cured.

This is what I'm hoping. In theory, there's no reason why our lucid dreams can't be as controllable as our waking imaginations or daydreams. I'm hoping that waking awareness/memory access is one of those things that, while it may temporarily lead to less control before it leads to more control, will ultimately be the key to having complete dominion over the dream itself.

P.S. sorry to keep bringing up dream control