Time and dreaming

[madmagus]

This probably has been discussed, but the search feature is futzed and keeps giving an error message. I was initially looking at dreaming in terms of short-term vs. long-term memory. It's obvious that dreams take place and are stored in short term memory and only occasionally make it to long-term, which is verified by the fact that we lose our dreams almost immediately upon having them. I was thinking that long-term memory was somehow related to lucidity, but I was thinking along the wrong path. I was confusing long-term memory 'storage' with the recognition of an 'old' memory as being 'old'. In other words, the Time element in the dream state is what is missing. We are perpetually in the 'Now' in the dream state, even when we are recalling old memories. The Old memories (pulled from long-term memory storage) exist within the normal dream as if they were happening at that very moment, as if Time didn't exist. Dead grandma starts talking to us, and it does not register as a past event. It registers as a 'Now' event. There is no Past or Future. There is only Now. What we really need to do to kick-start lucidity is learn to discern Time in dreams, because it is when we realize that grandma is actually dead that we become lucid. We suddenly recognize Time as an element of our reality. We became Self-aware when Time is brought into the dream state. I can't even count the number of dreams that I would have been lucid in if I had only perceived Time the same in the dream state as I do in the waking state. I don't have an answer off the top of my head, but I felt like sharing this thought nonetheless. I'm processing the info and formulating a plan. Any comments or ideas?

[snoop]

The memory system is pretty complex, it's a deep rabbit hole to go down. The common conception of short-term memory and long-term memory don't reflect the reality of our current understanding of memory. Even memories of something that happened just a few minutes ago is already a long-term memory, although that doesn't mean they've been fully encoded in the same way as the long-term memories you'd typically be thinking of using long-term memory, the lay-term. Unfortunately the interaction and function between the two is complicated enough of an explanation and to understand that thinking of short-term and long-term memories in the way the general populace usually understands it is effective enough for a bit of deeper discussion as long as you keep in mind they're not really that accurate, and that basically everything we normally think of as a short-term memory is actually classified as part of long-term memory. Explicit/declarative memory is a part of long-term memory and generally divided into two large subgroups which anatomically function using different circuits in the brain (although both are still involved with the hippocampus mostly iirc): semantic memory and episodic memory. Semantic memory is the memory of facts about things and episodic memory comprises of memories of experiences you've had in specific times and places (and emotions and other perceptions involved with that experience). There's also implicit memory, and more specifically procedural memory, which are also part of long-term memory and encompass memories of how to perform certain actions like tying one's shoes or riding a bike. If I remember correctly the brain structures and circuits involved most specifically with semantic memory and procedural memory have fairly regular activity that more or less mirrors or at least resembles waking consciousness while detecting brain activity in people who are dreaming during REM sleep, while the area most associated with episodic memory has little to no (or otherwise significantly reduced) activity. Hence, the resulting dream experiences are typically influenced less by memories of specific experiences you've had, and, more importantly, the memory of the dream you have does not get encoded by the normal neural circuitry that's responsible for recording your experiences of events. In this case, of course, the events that occur during your dream. The problems you've identified all center around not being able to remember specific events in time that we've experienced (such as talking with grandma being impossible because she already died) and not having what just happened being properly stored or encoded both while the dream is taking place and directly upon waking (in the case of the former, it's easy to forget what just happened or completely change trains of thought or in the environment, etc., on a dime). That, and centers most responsible for attention, awareness, and logic (and the utilization thereof) also has significantly reduced activity while dreaming, which means we're very open to simple explanations or suggestions for why or what reasons something is the way it is, and find it difficult to concentrate or consciously guide one's conscious awareness toward certain thoughts, feelings, or perceptions.

[madmagus]

I appreciate your extended explanation relating to how memory storage occurs and the breakdown of memory elements. However, as I pointed out near the beginning of my post, I'm not looking at long vs. short term memory specifically. It was merely an aspect of the conversation, not the point of it. What I am specifically trying to deal with is the recognition of the time element attached to existing information (memories), not the coding of new data. Further, I grant that logic function is impaired during normal dreams, which certainly contributes to the lack of recognition of illogical dream elements, if you will, but the point of my post was essentially to get input on how to train yourself to recognize the 'time element' of an existing memory that has been incorporated into your dream state as if it were happening at that very moment in time. In other words, the memory does not function as an actual memory. It is merely data dredged up for the dream scenario, because by definition a memory is data from our past not new data being generated in the present (and let's not get overly philosophical on this point please). It is the 'past' aspect (time element) that is missing. The memories are dredged up and co-opted into the dream, usually doing no more than functioning as background fodder for the actions taking place within the dream scenario. They are used as place settings, convenient pieces set up on stage, data plucked out of memory storage and plunked down out of context. And the out-of-context element is the problem. We use Self-awareness training during waking hours to teach us to be more logically cognizant in dreams, hoping that doing so will allow us to better recognize inconsistencies despite the naturally occurring logic deficit of the dream state. I'm thinking something similar is necessary for the element of Time, as it is also logic based, but may be approached as a separate training goal. I'm not sure. Maybe Self-awareness training is all one can do. Regardless, how do you train your mind to recognize the element of time during the dream state? How do you train while awake to make the time-evaluative state habitual so it insinuates itself into your subconscious and thus potentially into your dreams? Would you use a method similar to the current RC methodology, which is simply designed as a state test? Or is there a better way to accomplish it? Thanks again, Snoop, for your response.

[Goldenspark]

Recognising the passage of time, or that there is anything wrong with time in our dreams is quite a high-level thing to do, and I suspect needs critical reasoning which just isn't there. The normal way is to try and learn to stop and think back to where you have just come from, because in a dream you often just "arrive", whereas in WL there is a sequence you can usually remember. I can't really think of any other daytime practice that would use the time problem to spark lucidity.

[Sageous]

Hmm... I'm beginning to think, Madmagus, that this thread is not about time at all, but about memory. This is because I believe, that -- though NLD's are indeed Here & Now events, when we look back at them -- the perception of time works just fine in dreams while the dream is occurring. In other words, DC "You" is quite confident that it has a past, present, and future; just as the reality in which it believes it is firmly placed ought to have. In DC You's reality, Dead Grandma is still alive and well, and there is literally nothing to question, because DC You has been provided, in lieu of access to your actual memory, with a fictional history by your dreaming mind that makes perfect sense. This has driven me nuts for years, BTW; to miss such an obvious oddity (of course there is nothing odd in NLD's during the dream, but I suppose that is for another time). I think you sort of mentioned this already, but what may be missing in NLD's isn't a perception of time, it is access to memory. When Dead Grandma is talking to you in your dream, it isn't so much that her presence is a Here & Now event (which it is) as it is that you cannot remember that she is dead. Now, I guess semantically these are both the same thing, but in truth, phenomenologically, they are very different The Here & Now that we experience in dreams is effectively unintentional because we are unable to access the memory that would lend a dimension of "actual" time to the dream; we can't define the true nature of D. Granny's existence because we are unable to use memory to question her presence. In other words, the very tool we use to structure our world (including our own existence and identity) is unavailable during NLD's; and time is just one of the things that is out of whack during a dream thanks to the absence of access to memory. And yes, memory is most certainly accessed during even the purest waking-life Here & Now moments -- it is through memory that you are even able to appreciate and recognize such moments, and your presence in them, I think. This all sounded a lot better in my head, but if you want a slightly less addled take on this subject, you might check out a thread I started a log time ago about memory. But here's the rub: there may be nothing you can do about it anyway! This is because when you are not lucid, everything is just fine, so you will be literally, functionally unable to notice that time isn't present and history is all wrong; you, or rather "DC You," will be contentedly unable to remember that Grandma is no longer alive. Lucidity arrives after a spark of self-awareness has already fired, so any test you might concoct will only work after you are lucid. This includes RC's, noticing "the odd," remembering where you were 5 minutes ago, etc.. all of which are things that confirm lucidity, rather than induce lucidity. So practicing self-awareness might be the daywork to focus on, since this practice will help get you into a lucid mindset that might wander into your dreams and allow that spark. tl;dr: I'm not sure failing to notice the absence of time is the problem here; it seems to me, instead, to be a failure by natural design to access memory during a NLD. And, since the only way to access memory (and become lucid in the first place, for that matter) is by bringing your waking-life self-awareness into a dream, keeping up your daytime self-awareness practice is probably a good idea.

[madmagus]

Thanks for the response, Goldenspark. Unfortunately, i'm at a similar place. I'm hoping that if I think about it in more depth that something will occur that hasn't yet. I felt it was worth looking at nonetheless.

[madmagus]

Thanks, Sageous. I agree with your perspective in that access to memories in their true form, if you will, is a significant problem. And it does addle the brain and feel a bit semantic trying to determine whether memory access or the under appreciation of time is a true causative factor in our lack of lucidity. I try to envision my NLDs to determine how I feel in them regarding time, and thinking on it I agree that there does appear to be a rudimentary acknowledgement of a past while dreaming non-lucidly. It just feels very encapsulated, vague, and of course simply not true or at least not complete. The data pulled from memory storage is simply slapped into place as present-time information, out of context from where it was pulled. I'm not sure if this training regimen will be of any benefit, but I was looking at memory formation at its most basic level. Memory is created primarily through synapse linking in our brain, or the chaining of data. Few memories are created from scratch as independent elements, and if they are, they are harder to access if not drilled in with diligence. In other words, most memories are links in a chain, making later access to them much easier. My only thought at this point, beyond standard Self-awareness practice, is to practice creating memory chains related to dreaming. I.e., take all of your dream signs, for instance, and attach them to memory chains that are specific to dreaming. So, each time you think of D.grandma, the concept of dreaming comes to mind automatically. How much rote effort this would take before it became ingrained I don't know. Would this work? I'm not sure. I've thought about it but have not put it into practice. I currently use Memory Palace techniques for memory work that I do, but I have not worked out a best-practice approach for the dreaming application. I'll see what happens I guess. It's too easy to become single focused as to cause and effect when it comes to the dream state. I readily get caught up in an idea and just run with it. There is something rattling around in my brain on this topic, and I just can't get a handle on what it is. Thanks again for taking the time to respond in depth, and I'll look at your memory post.

[madmagus]

Looking at your memory post, I particularly like your comment regarding dream logic. As you stated, we assume too often that it is our logic that hampers our lucidity (which certainly it does), but for logic to have functionality, it must be based on the recognition of specific limitations. It must have a grounding in rules and existing data. We generate those limitations/rules from past experience and use them in present time as data to form new conclusions. If our information base (memories) is limited or missing, then we have no basis from which to form logical conclusions in the moment, no information source with which to compare current data with past data to recognize logic flaws. Thus, the data we perceive in the dream in the form of inconsistencies such as D.Grandma has minimal chance of being recognized as an inconsistency of logic because we don't have access to comparative data to divine a logical conclusion. The oddity stands alone, having disconnected from its memory chain. So, to the OP, do we get very specific and strive to attach the concept of dreaming to a dream sign (which initiates memory access), hoping that it will draw us into Self-awareness, or do we take a more general approach and somehow tweak our Self-awareness wherein we learn to remember who we are in the bigger picture, hoping it translates into our dreams. Yes, that last was exceptionally vague. Other than attaching the concept of dreaming to dream signs, I'm back to single-point meditation teaching us to penetrate the dross of irrelevant data to see the truth of the moment, whether it be in the waking state or the dreaming. I guess like most, I'm hoping for a technique button to push to fix the awareness problem. But I am sure there is something missing, something that I am just not seeing. At least it feels like there is. Good read your memory post. As a side note, logic training alone would not bring about lucidity, otherwise scientists, engineers, etc., would all be wonderfully natural lucid dreamers. Accessing our true past through memories is still necessary.

[Sageous]

^^ I don't have much time, but you gave me a couple of thoughts I'd like to share (please forgive the parsing): ... I try to envision my NLDs to determine how I feel in them regarding time, and thinking on it I agree that there does appear to be a rudimentary acknowledgement of a past while dreaming non-lucidly. It just feels very encapsulated, vague, and of course simply not true or at least not complete. The data pulled from memory storage is simply slapped into place as present-time information, out of context from where it was pulled. It sure is. When forming dreams, the dreaming mind/unconscious doesn't seem to care much about accuracy, consistency, or history, does it? Or, if you're the interpreting type, the vague stuff slapped into the "Here&Now" of the dream experience might simply seem vague and incomplete because it was all the information necessary to assemble the needed symbols and emotions of a meaningful dream (I'm not an interpreting type, myself, but that's probably for another thread). But remember that during NLD, "DC You" is in a world where incorrect, vague, or ephemeral data makes sense, and is more than complete enough to draw conclusions that seem quite reasonable at the time. For example, D. Granny has just enough history attached to her that there is no question she is alive and well, and DC You accepts her existence not for lack of logic skills, but because there is simply no need to question her existence -- your dreaming mind has already presented her being alive and well as historical fact. Indeed -- and this has happened to me a few times -- if a DC should walk up to you and tell you that D. Granny is really dead, DC You might very likely offer up a very clear logic stream, and one that includes historical references, that proves without a doubt that she is still alive. The trouble, again, is that DC You exists in a world that it believes is real, so even the vaguest data works just fun, because it is supposed to. I'm not sure if this training regimen will be of any benefit, but I was looking at memory formation at its most basic level. Memory is created primarily through synapse linking in our brain, or the chaining of data. Few memories are created from scratch as independent elements, and if they are, they are harder to access if not drilled in with diligence. In other words, most memories are links in a chain, making later access to them much easier. My only thought at this point, beyond standard Self-awareness practice, is to practice creating memory chains related to dreaming. I.e., take all of your dream signs, for instance, and attach them to memory chains that are specific to dreaming. So, each time you think of D.grandma, the concept of dreaming comes to mind automatically. How much rote effort this would take before it became ingrained I don't know. Would this work? Probably not, but it's worth trying, if only as a sort of mnemonic memory device: if your daywork includes lots of memory chaining, you might gain a bit of self-awareness when you remember to do the chaining during a dream... so, because you're remembering to remember, lucidity will likely blossom, and the chaining will make an excellent RC, I think, not to mention a pretty cool tool for designing a new dream (i.e., go on a search for the truth of D. Granny's demise, forcing your dreaming mind to create a deep, possibly explorable history to defend its creation). But, in the end, the chaining will not have caused your lucidity on its own -- in fact, I see no reason why DC You couldn't create very deep and thorough memory chains that will have nothing at all to do with waking-life reality, but they'll seem real during the Here&Now of your NLD. Looking at your memory post, I particularly like your comment regarding dream logic. As you stated, we assume too often that it is our logic that hampers our lucidity (which certainly it does), but for logic to have functionality, it must be based on the recognition of specific limitations. It must have a grounding in rules and existing data. We generate those limitations/rules from past experience and use them in present time as data to form new conclusions. If our information base (memories) is limited or missing, then we have no basis from which to form logical conclusions in the moment, no information source with which to compare current data with past data to recognize logic flaws. I might have said this already, but you're describing logic as it works in waking-life. If DC You chooses to be logical during a NLS, rest assured that it will have no trouble grounding its calculations in rules and existing data... that those rules and existing data are all wrong is meaningless to DC You, for whom, thanks to the "facts" and "memories supplied by your dreaming mind, proving that, say, the moon just gave birth to a purple dragon that just landed in D. Granny's backyard pool, will be a snap and make perfect sense... and, per the OP, DC You will very likely be able to remember fabricated historical "facts" that confirm the dragon's "reality." In other words, yes, DC You will have a "basis from which to form logical conclusions in the moment," and an "information source with which to compare current data with past data to recognize logic flaws;" It'll just all turn out to be wrong when you wake up and recall the dream (and, perhaps, go on to blame your failed logic skills for failing to assess even the most obvious mistakes in the dream)... but only after you wake up... Thus, the data we perceive in the dream in the form of inconsistencies such as D.Grandma has minimal chance of being recognized as an inconsistency of logic because we don't have access to comparative data to divine a logical conclusion. The oddity stands alone, having disconnected from its memory chain. Agreed. And on top of that, your dreaming mind will produce whatever comparative evidence might be necessary to prove to DC You that there is no oddity... so not only will DC You generally fail to find D. Granny breathing nearby to be an oddity, but even if it does, your dreaming mind is fully equipped to invent memories that will convince you that she can't be dead... but, again, just sprinkle a hint of waking-life self-awareness into the mix, and suddenly logic has something real to grab onto (i.e., "Hey, wait a minute, Grandma, you're dead!"), and lucidity ensues. So, to the OP, do we get very specific and strive to attach the concept of dreaming to a dream sign (which initiates memory access), hoping that it will draw us into Self-awareness, or do we take a more general approach and somehow tweak our Self-awareness wherein we learn to remember who we are in the bigger picture, hoping it translates into our dreams. I recommend tweaking self-awareness. Like RC's, recognizing dream signs generally happens after you are at least slightly lucid, and not before... also like RC's, I don't believe that recognizing dream signs ever "make" you lucid, though that is probably heresy to say so in our LaBerge-oriented universe; you really must already be lucid for that stuff to work. (The exception here is MILD, but even in that case you are training your mind to "remember to remember," which is in a sense installing a bit of lucidity into your dream before you do the remembering. Other than attaching the concept of dreaming to dream signs, I'm back to single-point meditation teaching us to penetrate the dross of irrelevant data to see the truth of the moment, whether it be in the waking state or the dreaming. That seems like a good plan! I guess like most, I'm hoping for a technique button to push to fix the awareness problem. But I am sure there is something missing, something that I am just not seeing. At least it feels like there is. Well, I for one have been at this for going on 40 years now, with some success, and I have found (in spite of decades of searching) that there is no button. Slow, careful daytme development of a lucid mindset really is the key to all this, I've found... which, yes, pretty much sucks. As a side note, logic training alone would not bring about lucidity, otherwise scientists, engineers, etc., would all be wonderfully natural lucid dreamers. Accessing our true past through memories is still necessary. To me, the logically trained are the worst LD'ers, because, as DC's during their NLD's they are the most accepting of the "truths" that their dreaming minds provide as needed; I've no time to explain why, so hopefully I already have.

[madmagus]

Thanks for the response. As you pointed out, I do have the habit of evaluating the dream state from a non-dream state reality and expecting similar conclusions. My whole conversation with myself on the above points doesn't take into account what you mentioned a couple times, i.e. the DC perspective. I keep superimposing my waking logic onto the DC, specifically involving the ability to access pertinent data to come to conclusions that are valid outside the dream environment. I still hope it is somehow possible to invigorate dream awareness to do just that, but for the moment......I meditate. Thus, your points are well taken. It was good having the chat, if for no other reason than to gain greater clarity overall regarding dream psychology. I'm going to try the chaining bit, if for no other reason than it will act, as you stated, as a form of RC if nothing else. Nothing ventured nothing gained. And old but forever true statement.