*twitch* guess.. what i just found out.... *twitch*

[Beef Jerky]

i just found out... my friend has a natural ability to lucid dream almost every night... here is my stages of shock :

[Leo Volont]

You know, there are friends and there are friends. Sometimes 'friends' simply want to zero in on exactly one's most vulnerable spot just for the fun of watching one squirm. Does this mean that your friend really does Lucid Dream every night, or does it mean your friend just says this in order to screw with your head? You see, there are shelves of books in the Self-Help Sections of Book Stores which advise people on the best ways in which to 'make friends and influence people'. The primary method is to find out what a person's interests are and then to appeal to those interests -- ask appropriate questions, and nod with understanding and be agreeable. This can fool a lot of people until you read such a book one's self and then one can begin to discern when one's self is on the receiving end of The Method. But The Method, in and of itself, is not so bad. After all, it only makes one dissimilate interest. However, as a person becomes accustomed to dissimilation, they may begin to go way beyond where any book advised them to go. After a while people begin to enjoy the feeling they get when they manipulate people, deceive people, lie to people. You must be careful about whom it is that you regard as your friend. A person who will tell to you simply so he or she can be amused by the signs of your discomfort... that is not so much a 'friend' as it is a vampire that wishes to feed off of your psychic energy.

[MAXxyz]

One of my friends also has this ability. Allmost all of his dreams are lucids, and i really trust him about that, he's not the type that lies about stuff like that.

[Barbizzle]

Leo, I think your being a bit parinoid As for idontknow, I have found out that some people ( more then we think) Lucid Dream quite often. And those people always assme that everybody dreams like that. I know when I was younger that was how it was for me. as I got older though, the natural Lucids slowly subsided ( I still have them, tbu I wondr if its from all my LD experince, or from my old natural tendancy to have them) My history techer has Lucid Dreams all time. I am somewhat jelous that he does, only because it comes so easy to him. Well, thats good that you and yoru friend have more in common now

[Leo Volont]

If I am paranoid, then it is because I have something solid to be paranoid about. Think about it. One of the most popular genres of Books being sold world wide are these Self Help Books, and the Best Sellers of this genre of Books are those very books which instruct people on how to lie in order to 'make friends and influence people'. And so we have it that so many of our 'best friends' just so happen to be better at Lucid Dreaming then we are who are the actual enthusiasts. But how is that at all likely? You should all consider that if so many books instructive on the arts of lying and deception are being sold, then it only figures that somebody out there must be reading them.

[Grrrrrrawwwwrrr]

I think I agree with Leo because I have a friend who used to lie constintly about anything said in a conversation. Weather it was a movie or a skateboard trick or really anything at all he would just say yea I saw that and yea I can do that. I don't think he had anyother reason to lie rather then to talk but I think Leo was right with the to screw with your head thing it makes a lot of sence.

[nina]

Hey Bizzle Wizzle easy on the name calling, yeah? I sort of agree. When I first talked to my sister about lucid dreaming she proclaimed, OH I do that like every night. I was shocked. But the more I've talked to her about it the more I think she has no clue what the heck she is talking about. I don't know if she's ever had a really CLEAR highly vivid LD. Though, I'm not saying your friend is lying. Some people do have the ability to LD every night and the reason they are most likely not "enthusiasts" as Leo suggests is because they think it's normal, and that everyone dreams like this. OR they are sick of LDs and just want regular dreams. I've met a couple people on this forum who are "cursed" with only being able to have LDs.

[Placebo]

Originally posted by Leo Volont the Best Sellers of this genre of Books are those very books which instruct people on how to lie in order to 'make friends and influence people'. I've read the book you're referring to, and throughout the book it stresses being sincere about it, and that faking it is really see-through and ineffective. Just another example of not judging a book by it's cover, IMO. But I do agree that there are a lot of self help books out there that emphasize things they shouldn't

[Goldsplinter]

Originally posted by Placebo I've read the book you're referring to, and throughout the book it stresses being sincere about it, and that faking it is really see-through and ineffective. Just another example of not judging a book by it's cover, IMO. But I do agree that there are a lot of self help books out there that emphasize things they shouldn't "How to make friends and influence People" by Dale Carnegie.... Awesome book. Author really teaches you how to tame the ego a bit and be genuinely interested in people and put your own needs aside for a bit. How people use it......is up to them.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by armyhelmetman I think I agree with Leo because I have a friend who used to lie constintly about anything said in a conversation. Weather it was a movie or a skateboard trick or really anything at all he would just say yea I saw that and yea I can do that. I don't think he had anyother reason to lie rather then to talk but I think Leo was right with the to screw with your head thing it makes a lot of sence. Yeah! You see! I'm not the only one who has noticed that it seems a lot of people have taken on this Discipline of outright lying. Most people are trusting and would not guess that their friends would simply be talking out of some studied design to impress them. But then, ask yourself this... how did these people become your friends in the first place. Was it not by flattering you and talking up to your interests? They read all of the Books on how to make friends, and so they knew exactly what bait to use to catch you. and now you should consider how your own behavior has changed toward these 'friends'. The friends who claim to have Lucid Dreams... do you treat them better than your other friends who are being honest to you? Well, if so, then these liars are being well rewarded for having purchased and studied all these books which taught them how to so expertly deceive. Or maybe they even went to the Work Shops and Week End Seminars. We must all stop being so naive. Lying and Deception have now become Industries within our Western Society. If you believe anybody for simply following your lead in a conversation, then you are being a well-warned idiot.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Placebo I've read the book you're referring to, and throughout the book it stresses being sincere about it, and that faking it is really see-through and ineffective. Just another example of not judging a book by it's cover, IMO. But I do agree that there are a lot of self help books out there that emphasize things they shouldn't Again, Placebo, one should remember to take one's Smart Pills in the morning. But in the meanwhile, ask yourself exactly what the author might mean by imposing deceptions upon people with 'sincerity'. What we have here is the technique of hiding one's villiany in 'Sheep's Clothing'. It only fools the silly housewives, and yourself. Everyone else understands the subtext. And it is not just one book, though I congratulate you if you have finally been able to read an entire book (the whole thing?) There are hundreds of books, and hundreds of authors crisscrossing the Western World giving Seminars on these Programs, all alittle different but all about the same, on how to promote oneself through misrepresentation and deception. And this is not the only area where people are taught to lie, and where some idiots do not know they have been told to lie. I went to a Channelling Workshop years ago when Channelling was the Big Thing. One silly woman asked what she should do if she is receiving nothing. Well, she was told that sometimes Channelling comes through not in the possession of one's vocal chords or by the imposition of Visions in one's Mind's eye, but that it comes through the Imaginative and Creative Areas of the Brain, and that if nothing is coming through, then the person should actively go into one's mind in pursuit of some ideas and that once one establishes an idea or a story then it should flow well after that. Well, to me that sound exactly like "If you cannot really channel, then you have to begin to make things up and lie about it". But that is not what the silly housewives heard at all. Placebo, you need to be able to discern what is being said, under the euphemisms, under the sheep's clothing. You have been smart enough to learn English, and you have been smart enough to be precise in your grammer. There is no reason why you can't be smart enough to get just under the surface of what is being said.

[Burns]

So, Leo - are you saying that you think anyone who says anything in general is lying just because there are self-help books available that can teach you to manipulate people? I think you are being paranoid. Not to say that the one particular friend mentioned in the first post may not be lying, but I think you're jumping to conclusions about people you don't even know. For all you know, this person may have lucid dreams every night - who are we to call them a liar right off the bat??

[Awhislyle]

Leo, You've convinced me. You are lieing to us right now, every biased, one sided, strange post you make has been a deception, you really find pleasure in making the most bias posts and watching people become frustrated in you not showing any willingness to try to accept what others have to say. You have obviously read these books on lying many times Or... atleast.. Thats what I would tell you if I hadnt read the books on lieing, but I have, so... Leo, I like your post.

[Burns]

Right on. LOL.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Awhislyle Leo, You've convinced me. You are lieing to us right now, every biased, one sided, strange post you make has been a deception, you really find pleasure in making the most bias posts and watching people become frustrated in you not showing any willingness to try to accept what others have to say. You have obviously read these books on lying many times Or... atleast.. Thats what I would tell you if I hadnt read the books on lieing, but I have, so... Leo, I like your post. Well, at least I have gotten somebody to think of the possibility that not everybody may always be telling the Truth. What one needs to do is look to the details of what is being said. Now, if I were continuously lying, then it would be to my credit that I have been doing a great good deal of homework in order to flesh out my lies. And then there is the matter of the complexity of my lies. I would be not only lying about being a Catholic, but lying also about being something of a heretical Catholic with a bazaar set of almost unique beliefs. Whenever one is particularly unique in one's beliefs, it is difficult to assign any degree of lying to it, because, after all, who is the Unique Person trying to impress if he is the only one with such an opinion or belief system? And about my Dreaming, if I am lying there, it is toward the opposite direction of being lazy. In the examples I give I am referring constantly again and again to maybe the same 8 or 10 Big Dreams that I have had in my lifetime. If I were lying, I could be more creative then that. So, where I would expect to catch the liars would be in their Grandiose Claims and Assertions where the subsequent details are slim or few. Oh, this reminds me of how a friend of mine used to catch liars who claimed they had been at the famous Woodstock Concert in Upstate New York back in the old Hippy Days. he would say "You know, I don't understand those idiot Promoters -- there was this beautiful paved parking lot for all the cars, while for the Concert itself everybody had to wade into this big muddy field. So why didn't they turn it around and put all the cars in the big muddy field and let the people settle down on this nice dry parking lot for the Music". Well, there was no big paved parking lot, but the people who hadn't really been to Woodstock would not have known that, since nobody talks of parking lots and the Movies do not show parking lots. In many of the Mystical and Yogic Traditions, a great deal of detail is shielded from publication just so that liars cannot pretend to be among the Elite Few. But, nowadays few such precautions are exercised. Now, anybody who reads a few books can detail the highest and most transcendental of Religious and Spiritual Experiences -- drawing exact portrayals of the Real Thing, and who is to guess that they are lying. But in the good old days, the Gurus would keep people in the Dark until the actual Experience Itself would be described by the Student, in his own unique and probably illchosen words, and so there would be the acknowledgment there of something genuine. But nowadays everything is too well known. I've only known one guru who came up with a special trick to sort out the liars... but it would sort of defeat the purpose if I revealed it... wouldn't it.

[wombing]

most people lie at least sometimes in order to impress, or appeal to, people. personally, i used to do it quite often, until i realized a friend of mine did the same thing. after not being able to know for sure whether he was lying or speaking truthfully, i decided i didn't want to be deceptive. it took many years, but i rarely lie anymore, and never consciously. that being said, it is absurd to assume everyone is lying to you. and incredibly absurd to assume you need to read a book in order to be deceptive. you refer to 'housewives' in a condescending manner semi-frequently leo (at least in the posts i've read). what do you suppose is the subconscious reason behind this?

[Awhislyle]

Hmmm very interesting Leo, I your story about the spiritual traditions being lied about and research by those who do not truly believe and or act out such actions somewhat sad, obviously(or you may just be lieing very well ) you have put in alot of effort and belief into those traditions, and to find people defiling things that people put so much effort into like that just seems sad. It is true, there are liars in this world, but there are genuine people too.

[Placebo]

Leo, I agreed with you that many books do in fact do what you propose. I simply don't believe the one you mentioned is one of them. Of course, I could now take the time to write a lengthy post explaining why, but it's going to be lost on you anyway. And honestly, I'm busy. Despite your bitter posturing, I happen to be a bright boy, and more than entitled to my own opinions. If I'm wrong, that doesn't make me a liar (as you often accuse me of), it makes me wrong. There's a huge difference. Regarding your statement that you're telling the truth based on the complexity of your posts: When something is elaborate, it could simply be an elaborate lie. After all, how many religions are highly complex lies? You of all people should relate to this.

[BillyBob]

I used to lie to people all the time about stuff just so they would shut up, such as them saying "hey did you see that movie that came out yesterday" and i would think to myself, if i answer yes it was good and just nod and laugh about scenes they bring up and say they are funny then this topic should last a good 5-10 seconds, or if I say no i havnt seen it and i dont plan to (the truth) then they would most likely feel inclined to tell me all about the movie and tell me loads of reasons why i should see it, taking around 30 seconds to a minute of just them talking, then i would think "less listening" and tell them i had seen it and that had settled that boring topic in a few seconds... I dont do this anymore since now i see that lying like that is pointless, maybe they actually had a good reason why i should watch the movie, and if i had heard them through i could have had a lifechanging experience... not everyone realizes this so yes, there are many liars in this world just shooting off lies to beging or end topics for no real reason whatsoever, you dont have to read self help books to know how to do this...

[kafine]

My brother is a natural lucid dreamer. My own brother

[CryoDragoon]

when i read the title i thought you did something like this: http://www.foundrymusic.com/opieanthony/di...vs__TONGUE.html "electwicity ischn't gewd fuw yuw toungue"

[Keleiter]

As I am sure there are many people that do feel the need to lie about stuff like this..I am not one of them. I am a natural lucid dreamer..I have been doing it since I was 11 and have never had to try to do it. I can't help that.

[djk99]

I think the most popular self help book is The Bible, not quite as accurate as the other ones thou.

[dreamtamer007]

My son-in-law clams to have lucid dreams all the time. I questioned him on it with questions such as, how do you know you’re aware you are dreaming. He would say stuff like, if I can walk threw walls and similar effects. I have to admit I believed him for the time being but after reading Leo’s posts I think I’ll take little more skepticism into account before questioning him again. A list of pointed questions would be helpful if someone can come up with some good ones. Then we could report back with the results.

[Burns]

What ever happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise? Everyone is turning into skeptics and don't trust anyone or anything. I know there are liars and bad people out there, but there are just as many honest and good people. I wouldn't take Leo's novel-sized posts very seriously because I think he tries to make his points sound legitimate by fancy word-play and long-winded replies. Playing devil's advocate is important for the development of discussion, but not necessarily words to live by.