Thread: atropine = waking dreams?

I've been reading quite a bit on erowid about Datura Stramonium and its uses as an intoxicant, and from every experience I've looked at, it seems like this plant causes hallucinations that are so real that the user has no idea that he is even hallucinating (unlike psychedelics where it's pretty obvious that something weird is happening)...it seems like all of the experiences are exactly like non-lucid dreams, where all sorts of weird stuff is going on, but you don't even for a second consider that it might not be real. Anyone know anything about this?

I think I had a hallucination that I hallucinated!

I have heard of this atropine before. Let us no more of what you find mongreloctopus

I did a paper on atropine for vet school. We use it mainly as an anticholinergic preanesthetic agent before inducing general anesthesia. Here are some excerpts from my report (hope you can understand all the medical jargon):

Atropine is used as a preanesthetic agent in small animals to competitively antagonize the effects of acetycholine (ACH) on the muscarinic receptors of the parasympathetic nervous system. Being a monocyclic alkaloid, its molecular structure reads C17H23O3N. It is extracted from the Belladonna plants that belong to Solanaceae and include Atropa belladonna (deadly nightshade), Datura stramonium (jimsonweed) and Hyoscyamus niger (henbane). Atropine is a racemic mixture of d-hyoscyamine and l-hyoscyamine and can also be known as dl-hyoscyamine. Atropine sulfate occurs as colorless and odorless crystals or white crystalline powder. One gram of atropine sulfate is soluble in 0.5mL water. Aqueous solutions are practically neutral or slightly acidic, but commercially available injections may have the pH adjusted to 3.0 – 6.5. The dosage rate commonly used in veterinary medicine is 0.02 mg/kg and may be administered intramuscularly, subcutaneously, or intravenously.

The main anesthetic-related benefits of giving atropine preanesthetically include: reduced gastrointestinal (including salivary) and respiratory tract secretions, bronchodilation, and blockade of impulses in the vagal nerve tract. It has a low incidence of toxicity at clinically recommended doses in dogs and cats. Atropine is metabolized in the liver and excreted in the urine while approximately 30-50% of a dose is excreted unchanged in the urine. Of all anesthesia-related drugs, atropine is probably one of the least toxic and least likely to cause life-threatening complications when used correctly.

Intraoperatively, atropine is strongly recommended for the effects of certain procedures where vagal reflexes are likely to be present. These may include when intestinal viscera are handled extensively, when hepatic lobes are retracted or stretched, when ocular pressure is applied, when the heart and lungs are handled or retracted, and when cardiac vascular shunts are placed, such as with patent ductus arteriosus. Atropine causes mydriasis (pupil dilation) which can reduce ocular pain and prevent complications in various ocular diseases as well as antagonizing compounds that constrict airways and cause coughing. It may also be used as muscle relaxant and as an anti-spasmodic.

The physiological disadvantages to a patient that receives atropine is a sustained rapid heart rate with lowered diastolic filling time and stroke volume, decreased coronary blood flow, increased myocardical oxygen consumption, and iotrogenic sinus tachycardia. Atropine may inactivate antiarrhythmic drugs given to reduce tachycardia.

Sorry I don't anything about atropine and it's effects on dreaming. Basically, I posted those excerpts so you could see exactly what atropine is, and how is affects the body.

hm, that's interesting....but it wasn't exactly the effect on dreaming that i meant...rather, that the atropine has psychoactive effects (on humans, at least), that result in a strange kind of mental-state where you hallucinate, but are unable to determine that you are hallucinating (unlike most psychedelics containing psilocybin, lsa, dmt, etc, where you KNOW something otherworldly is happening). unfortunately, it seems that as a result of this inability to tell the difference between reality and your imagination, many people end up with bruises, broken limbs, arrested, in the ICU or dead. i just wonder if this changed brain functioning is at all similar to what happens during a non-lucid dream, and if there is maybe some sort of connection between specific neuro-transmitters and becoming lucid. i feel like i'm rambling..

Originally posted by burns91
Atropine is used as a preanesthetic agent in small animals to competitively antagonize the effects of acetycholine (ACH) on the muscarinic receptors of the parasympathetic nervous system.

"Competitively antagonise" puzzles me - do you mean the atropine and the ACH are competing for the same receptors on the "knob" end of the synapse? (I need to revise my vocab!)

I'm surprised a preanaesthetic has a hallucinatory effect. Surely the point is to prevent neurons firing, not excite them? I'm not a vet, so please set me right.

Originally posted by Grey Dragon
"Competitively antagonise" puzzles me - do you mean the atropine and the ACH are competing for the same receptors on the "knob" end of the synapse? (I need to revise my vocab!)

I'm surprised a preanaesthetic has a hallucinatory effect. Surely the point is to prevent neurons firing, not excite them? I'm not a vet, so please set me right.

To understand the effect of atropine on the brain, you must first understand how and where it works on the nervous system. Your nervous system is broken down like this:

I. Central Nervous System (CNS) - where most of the information processing is done.
____a. Brain
____b. Spinal cord
II. Peripheral Nervous System (PNS) - transportation of information to and from the CNS.
____a. Cranial nerves - paired nerves attached directly to the brain.
____b. Spinal nerves - paired nerves attached directly to the spinal cord.
____c. Autonomic Nervous System (ANS) - automatic, total-response system.
_______i. Sympathetic Nervous System - "fight or flight" response center.
_________- pupils dilate
_________- heart rate increase causes blood pressure increase
_________- respiratory bronchial dilation
_________- digestive tract slows/shuts down
_________- increased urine production from increased blood pressure
_______ii. Parasympathetic Nervous System - restores body to normal after "fight or flight" response
_________- pupils return to normal size
_________- heart rate and blood pressure return to normal
_________- respirations return to normal
_________- digestive activity returns

So, knowing the above physiology, atropine blocks the parasympathetic nervous system - so it mimics the effects of the sympathetic nervous system (causing "fight or flight" responses on the body), and doesn't allow the body's return to normal activity levels.

Anticholinergic drugs such as atropine exert their effect by blocking the muscarinic receptors for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (ACH). ACH is produced by the parasympathetic part of the autonomic nervous system and is the transmitter at both the nicotinic and muscarinic receptors of the nerve synapses. Muscarinic receptors are found in the heart, gastrointestinal tract, bronchi, several secretory glands, and the iris of the eyes. Atropine blocks the action of ACH at the muscarinic receptors, which are the terminal ends of the parasympathetic nervous system. It therefore acts to reverse parasympathetic effects and is therefore called a parasympatholytic drug.

Mongreloctopus, I know this info has nothing to do with dreaming or your original question, but I thought understanding the physiology may help.

Edit: Sorry the indenting didn't work with the outline. I tried using spaces but it won't show up indented for some reason. So I used underlines instead to indent.

it's very interesting actually. i now know what anticholinergics do beyond:

Main Entry: an·ti·cho·lin·er·gic
Pronunciation: -"kO-l&-'n&r-jik
Function: adjective
: opposing or blocking the physiologic action of acetylcholine

i think it's important to know the full scope of effects a chemical has on you before experimenting with it...that post should be submitted to erowid....

here's what they have to say about it:

These drugs are not usually regarded as psychedelic, although they have a great deal in common historically, ulturally, and pharmacologically with other drugs taken for their mind-altering powers. They are called anticholinergic because they block the action of acetylcholine, a nerve transmitter substance that controlls the contraction of skeletal muscles and also plays an important role in the chemistry of the brain. They are called deleriants because their effects at high doses include incoherent speech, disorientation, delusions, an halucinations, often followed by depression and amnesia for the period of intoxication. The classical anticholinergic delirients are the belladonna alkaloids:

These tropane derivatives, the most powerfull and important of which is scopolamine, are found in differing concentrations in various plants of the Nightshade Family or Solanaceae, among them deadly nightshade (Atropa belladona), mandrake (Mandragora officinarum), black henbane (Hyoscyamus niger), jimsonweed (Datura stramonium, and over twenty other species of henbane and datura. Of all psychoactive drugs , only alcohol has been in use for so long over such a large part of the world. For thousands of years on all inhabited continents the belladonna alkaloids have been a tool of shamans and sorcerers, who take advantage of the sensations they evok to leave their bodies, soar through the air, or change into an animal in their imagination. They also produce toxic organic symptoms like headache, dry throat, loss of motor control, blurred vision, and greatly increased heart rate and and body temperature; death from paralysis and respiratory may occur.

The belladonna alkaloids are so terrifying and incapacitating - the physical effects often so unpleasant, and the loss of contact with ordinary reality so complete - that they are used only with great caution and rarely for pleasure. For the same reasons, ironically, they are not regarded as a drug abuse problem and can be bought in small doses on perscription or in over-the-counter sedatives and pills for asthma, colds, and motion sickness.

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I guess this should probably be in beyond dreaming...sorry

The jimsonweed is indeed very powerful. This was one of the plants used by ancient shamans to further their mystic journeys. Unless you're experienced with this type of stuff, I'm not sure if I would recommend it. If you do a bit more reading on erowid, you'll see there are numerous accounts of extreme experiences (good and bad). If you think you are ready, just make sure you're in a good safe enviroment or out in nature.

Under the influence of a different substance I had an amazing lucid experience. It was just as real, or more-so, than waking life. I am convinced it was deeper than just a hallucination. Also, a friend of mine smoked salvia and told me he felt like he went into another world. I guess you could think of it as lucid dreaming in your waking life.

// cybereality