Thread: Acknowledging Ignorance

First post.

I have read and scanned through these boards for the last few days, and I can say that I'm pleasantly suprised that I've found a small, yet dependable and functioning community based on this. I have become somewhat familiar with a few of you, the main two being Leo and SKA.

I am 17 and (somewhat) new to lucid dreaming. I have been quite familiar with the idea, but new to the term and specifics behind it. I've had numberous lucid dreams as a child, but they all seemed to stop. Years later, I encountered a problem of sorts, and I needed not only to solve it, but to delve deeper into my own subconcious. Lo and behold, I found lucid dreaming, a mere week from today. That same night about reading about it and it's practices, I had a lucid dream.

My reasons behind practicing is much different than most of what I see on these boards, but that's okay.

Enough with my own trivial blabber and whatnot.

Ignorance truly is bliss, and lucid dreamers are truly in a euphoric state.

"Dreams are a truth fabricated by our brain; a truth that can exist only within our mind."

Do you believe that to be so?

I am no educated scholar, nor am I some kind of New Age realist. I am perhaps a simple layman with some knowlage and an idea.

Before I go any further, who believes in shared dreams? I am almost postitive many of you do, as it is widely accepted that they are very much possible.

Has anyone ever tried to create one? Have you tried to delve deeper into your mind, deeper than your own subconcious? Gustave Le Bon's assumpion that multiple people creates a new mentality - a "group mind" can be used in somewhat relative terms; perhaps there is a force beyond gravity that bonds us all together.

I am trying to relay one question: what if our minds are simply doorways to each other? Being God within our dreams is fine, but we are still grounded by reality (if we weren't, then there wouldn't be much purpose in defying it, now would there). We all share a common idea of what is possible and what is not, what is real and what is not and so on. What if the shadows (a la Allegory of the Cave) that we see and pass everyday was revealed to be not as a shadow, but as a real object - a common idea of perfection?

What if perfection was truly a common thought shared between all of us?

Can Lucid Dreaming take us there? Can we control our subconcious into moving not into what we fabricate within the dream land, but what is perfect?

How deep does it really go, considering we are asking our minds for complete control?

I'm sure you all have your intelligent (and not so much) ideas, so please, share.

Can we slip into and realize a world that is perfect and true? Can we find each other's conciousness in the land of dreams?

Wow your 17? I believe that there is a way, but it's yet to be found. I'm pretty sure no one has ever done it and could prove it. I think over time that the human mind might evolve to the point where it is possible. I heard from my science teacher that in the last 100 years the human mind has started to expand the algebraic part of it, because we are beginning to use it more commonly. I think if someday meditation or even lucid dreaming is taught in general education, that the mind will start to develope an area that might make us be able to communicate without talking, shaping matter (BTW: My grandmother and a few of my dad's brothers and sisters said that they were listening to a radio station where a guy was claiming to be able to bend metal with his mind and said that a few people listening to him would have their rings on there fingers flattened so take them off. She said she didn't want to listen to BS so she turned it off. A few minutes later noticed her ring was slightly bent and she couldnt get it off. She had to cut it off and she still has it to this day.), and maybe even going deep into meditation to the point where it is possible to leave our bodies.

I hope this is somewhat of a reply to your question. I have a feeling I'm not completly answering the question about the perfect (which I'm guessing is about explicite and implicite order). But I haven't read to much about it, so I can't say to much. Besides the fact that at subatomic levels there are no LxWxH demensions, only one demension(strings). So I might believe the whole "this is a hologram" theory if they might be able to prove it. Well anyway I strayed off topic.

I see two major flaws in this theory. The first being there is no possible way for a universal idea of perfection. No one thing could appeal to every person's unique needs and desires. It's almost as if you're implying by transferring into this collective conciousness one would be exposed to some blinding truth that would shape the subject into this uniform mold that would be known as "enlightened". There just isn't any such thing as a common idea. My idea of love is something totally different than you could ever know due to the fact that we are assimilations of experiences and genetics. When you think of an idea or an object and what it is, requires you to run through all your experiences with this particular thing and largely depends on your mental and emotional capacity.

The second is in what possible way would this communication take place? Some energy that is beamed from brain to brain of the sleeping? In what biological way would that ever be needed as a survival trait? Abilities don't just evolve just because they can. So maybe it's the idea of soul leaving the body and wondering in this dreamland that exists outside any kind of reality we could ever percieve. That's just more mysticism. No reason to believe in what there is no evidence for. It's likely you've heard an point like this before but when there's no physical evidence to support something it seems easy for most to claim to most ludicrous things. For instance I don't believe that trees grow of their own accord, there are magical invisible fairies who cause photosynthesis.(Its an example) But try to prove it wrong... Sometimes people get too wrapped up in their philosophies or religion to see what they claiming to exist has been pulled out of thin air.

It's not that I dont wish for this to be possible. It really would unify the human race a bit but some would just be interested in terrorizing other's minds just as in waking life. Oh well, that's my thoughts on those ideas.

Originally Posted by Angelus

First post.

I have read and scanned through these boards for the last few days, and I can say that I'm pleasantly suprised that I've found a small, yet dependable and functioning community based on this. I have become somewhat familiar with a few of you, the main two being Leo and SKA.

I am 17 and (somewhat) new to lucid dreaming. I have been quite familiar with the idea, but new to the term and specifics behind it. I've had numberous lucid dreams as a child, but they all seemed to stop. Years later, I encountered a problem of sorts, and I needed not only to solve it, but to delve deeper into my own subconcious. Lo and behold, I found lucid dreaming, a mere week from today. That same night about reading about it and it's practices, I had a lucid dream.

My reasons behind practicing is much different than most of what I see on these boards, but that's okay.

Enough with my own trivial blabber and whatnot.

Ignorance truly is bliss, and lucid dreamers are truly in a euphoric state.

"Dreams are a truth fabricated by our brain; a truth that can exist only within our mind."

Do you believe that to be so?

I am no educated scholar, nor am I some kind of New Age realist. I am perhaps a simple layman with some knowlage and an idea.

Before I go any further, who believes in shared dreams? I am almost postitive many of you do, as it is widely accepted that they are very much possible.

Has anyone ever tried to create one? Have you tried to delve deeper into your mind, deeper than your own subconcious? Gustave Le Bon's assumpion that multiple people creates a new mentality - a "group mind" can be used in somewhat relative terms; perhaps there is a force beyond gravity that bonds us all together.

I am trying to relay one question: what if our minds are simply doorways to each other? Being God within our dreams is fine, but we are still grounded by reality (if we weren't, then there wouldn't be much purpose in defying it, now would there). We all share a common idea of what is possible and what is not, what is real and what is not and so on. What if the shadows (a la Allegory of the Cave) that we see and pass everyday was revealed to be not as a shadow, but as a real object - a common idea of perfection?

What if perfection was truly a common thought shared between all of us?

Can Lucid Dreaming take us there? Can we control our subconcious into moving not into what we fabricate within the dream land, but what is perfect?

How deep does it really go, considering we are asking our minds for complete control?

I'm sure you all have your intelligent (and not so much) ideas, so please, share.

Can we slip into and realize a world that is perfect and true? Can we find each other's conciousness in the land of dreams?
[/b]

*Knowledge

BURN!

No offense to Angelus though.

Ok well first of all that is definately a very interesting post which mentions some very interesting possibilities, anyway first thing I guess is personally I don't believe that perfection exists cause it is merely an adjective to describe what you BELIEVE an ideal person should be, but really since we are all different, there is no possible way for anything to be perfect (also i'm an atheist so god is out of the question too). Anyway another interesting thing is, I don't know if you have checked out the new Stephen King book yet called Cell? Anyway the basic jist is that a "signal" sent through phones strips the brain of all but it's most primal instincts, that to kill and that to survive. Anyway the interesting thing is that these very "basic" humans which have been stripped of all thoughts and personal beliefs that they are limited to what they believe is possible, begin to develope a group mind and they function as one...I mean in a broader sense, like maybe each individual is a piece of the whole which would be all the minds on this planet synchronized and working together as one....anyway btw no i'm not on drugs before someone asks

anyway I think that currently (we use a small portion of our brains AT A TIME) we send out a sort of "weak signal" which is picked up on by others, and that's why occasionally a person will suddenly be thinking of the same thing that the other person near us is...I bet if we could figure out to use the full capacity of our brains to generate that signal, it would be much more powerful and a new level of telepathic communication would emerge.

anyway I think that currently (we use a small portion of our brains AT A TIME) we send out a sort of "weak signal" which is picked up on by others, and that's why occasionally a person will suddenly be thinking of the same thing that the other person near us is...I bet if we could figure out to use the full capacity of our brains to generate that signal, it would be much more powerful and a new level of telepathic communication would emerge.[/b]

This ended up being a myth. Says here "if all neurons of the brain were generating action potentials at the same time, it is highly likely to result in dysfunction." And there are different parts used for different things, I don't think you could focus your parts of the mind used for things that arent relavent to what your doing. It only calls upon a certain part of the brain when it's needed. http://www.brainconnection.com/topic...=fa/brain-myth

Oh and PS I'm not completly sure, but I think the whole "perfect" he's talking about might be explicite and implicite order. One is supposed to be here on earth and the other is whats after this. "heaven"/"perfect"

Well whatever.. I don't know if there is a Collective Spirit World we go to when we are Dreaming, or that it's all just the Biggest Hypnotic hallucination ever we experience every night. I personally find the Last Theory more Credible.

But whatever is the ''paradox'' Behind Lucid Dreaming and Dreaming in General: It's Defenitely a Paradox, and it's defenitely ''out there''. Of course the Why and How Questions quickly arise thinking about something as immersively spiritual as Dreaming: It is like we truely come to ourselves: to the essence of our Being: The Psyche. I can see why you mentioned ''Acknowledging Ignorance'': Your Concious Mind is taught to supress feelings and desires and such. And although one may conciously surpress, for Instance, Sadness, one part of you ( Your Subconcious ) Will take non of this Bullshite-acted behavior and you can't fool it: It wil continue stating how Sad you actually feel. It's why People who ''Pretend to be'' and ''act'' alot are likely to have Nightmares at night: When they are submerged deep into their own SubConcious Mind: Which will be Crualy Rightious to them and Confront them with all the Feelings they supressed and ignored with Their Concious Mind. There's no escaping the Indenieable truth about yourself in your Dreams, since in Dreams we become our True selves.


That is how I see it. Now mumbo Jumbo New Age Spiritworld Theory: It's all just in the Head if you ask me: That doesn't make it any less intrueging than some ''universe where the spirits be''. In Fact I find it a Psychological explanation to Dreaming a 100 times more Intrueging than some cheap story I've read a 1000 times before in a 1000 of different variants.

The Human Mind, Your own Psyche, Your Subconcious & Dreaming: mightily Interresting

Originally Posted by DyerMaker

I see two major flaws in this theory. The first being there is no possible way for a universal idea of perfection. No one thing could appeal to every person's unique needs and desires. It's almost as if you're implying by transferring into this collective conciousness one would be exposed to some blinding truth that would shape the subject into this uniform mold that would be known as "enlightened". There just isn't any such thing as a common idea. My idea of love is something totally different than you could ever know due to the fact that we are assimilations of experiences and genetics. When you think of an idea or an object and what it is, requires you to run through all your experiences with this particular thing and largely depends on your mental and emotional capacity.[/b]

First off, great critique, but you aren't understanding what I mean by a "common idea of perfection."

Take, for example, Heaven.

Although we all share different views on this place (or state of mind, whatever you believe in), we all have a particular idea of what it is and what it offers. Heaven can be a place of endless happiness, or it can be a place of, for lack of a better term, an endless orgasm. It can be a place of pure silence and peace, or it can be a place where you are with all of your loved ones.

But we all share a common idea, no? Of course it will vary from person to person. But it is the concept that is the same. We experience things differently for different reasons, I agree, but you are thinking of things a little too... realistically. Remember - this is an intellectual concept, not a philosophy you can live by. Once you release your preconcieved notions of what is capable and what is not, perhaps you can understand where I am coming from.

The second is in what possible way would this communication take place? Some energy that is beamed from brain to brain of the sleeping? In what biological way would that ever be needed as a survival trait? Abilities don't just evolve just because they can. So maybe it's the idea of soul leaving the body and wondering in this dreamland that exists outside any kind of reality we could ever percieve. That's just more mysticism.[/b]

You are too grounded to physical belief and known-science, friend. Don't misunderstand me, that's perfectly fine that you believe in only your physical self as a walking mass of electrical charges, tissues and fatty oils. I don't, however.

Mind, body, soul? Maybe not, but there does not have to be a particular reason for something to be able to do something. Humans are intelligent creatures, and they can do what they please without worry of natural predators and whatnot. But what about chimps and dolphins? Hear me out.

We have sex for not only procreation, but also for simple stimulation and pleasure. Did you know that apes and dolphins do the same also? For stimulation and pleasure, not for purpose. I'm no Jane Goodall, but I'll have to say that two chimpanzees in the doggy style position while wailing at the top of their lungs isn't exactly key to their survival, let alone save their ass from getting bitten by a large snake. And dolphins? Ha.

I hate to break it to you, but the mind is much more undiscovered than I'm comfortable with.

No reason to believe in what there is no evidence for. It's likely you've heard an point like this before but when there's no physical evidence to support something it seems easy for most to claim to most ludicrous things. For instance I don't believe that trees grow of their own accord, there are magical invisible fairies who cause photosynthesis.(Its an example) But try to prove it wrong... Sometimes people get too wrapped up in their philosophies or religion to see what they claiming to exist has been pulled out of thin air.[/b]

*blink* Excuse me?

Goddamnit! You've caught me. Yes, my friend, I've learned radical points from a travelling mystic that told me that there was another world that coexists with the physical. I also bought some snake oil from the guy that was driving the horse-drawn carnival.

In any case, I don't even feel like commenting on this, as it's an insult to what intelligence I have, as well as it is pretty much diotic that theories cannot exist without "physical evidence" (hey, last time I checked, our dreams arent' exactly the most physical thing in the world)

It's not that I dont wish for this to be possible. It really would unify the human race a bit but some would just be interested in terrorizing other's minds just as in waking life.[/b]

Who said they can join?

In fact, who said that the "human race" can join? You are jumping the gun, my fellow Zepplin fan.

Oh well, that's my thoughts on those ideas.[/b]

Sure. These were mine on yours.

We have sex for not only procreation, but also for simple stimulation and pleasure. Did you know that apes and dolphins do the same also? For stimulation and pleasure, not for purpose. I'm no Jane Goodall, but I'll have to say that two chimpanzees in the doggy style position while wailing at the top of their lungs isn't exactly key to their survival, let alone save their ass from getting bitten by a large snake. And dolphins? Ha.[/b]

Why do you think sex is pleasurable? It's an incentive to procreate and keep the population alive of course. If sex were something unpleasant that species would probably die off quickly. Animals don't even have the capacity to think why they are having sex. It's instinct and pleasurable they aren't thinking of the far off results, that's what separates us from animals.

*blink* Excuse me?

Goddamnit! You've caught me. Yes, my friend, I've learned radical points from a travelling mystic that told me that there was another world that coexists with the physical. I also bought some snake oil from the guy that was driving the horse-drawn carnival.

In any case, I don't even feel like commenting on this, as it's an insult to what intelligence I have, as well as it is pretty much diotic that theories cannot exist without "physical evidence" (hey, last time I checked, our dreams arent' exactly the most physical thing in the world)[/b]

Was it really an insult to your intelligence or could you just not come up with any kind of reason to believe in this? Because it was not meant to be an insult it was more of a request that you back up your theories.

Also dreams operate physical law. REM, my friend. Neurons firing electric impulses, brain secreting different chemicals etc. It's all physical in nature we can observe the things causing dreams the only thing we can't observe is the dream itself(when occuring in another) because there is no way to translate what a brain is imagining since like you said it's still largely unknown territory.

Who said they can join?

In fact, who said that the "human race" can join? You are jumping the gun, my fellow Zepplin fan.[/b]

Join the perfect world? You said us lucid dreamers that's who.

Originally Posted by Angelus

Who said they can join?

In fact, who said that the "human race" can join? You are jumping the gun, my fellow Zepplin fan.
Sure. These were mine on yours.
[/b]

So I'm guessing you are going to be the only person able to do it?

Originally Posted by Angelus

First off, great critique, but you aren't understanding what I mean by a "common idea of perfection."

Take, for example, Heaven.

Although we all share different views on this place (or state of mind, whatever you believe in), we all have a particular idea of what it is and what it offers. Heaven can be a place of endless happiness, or it can be a place of, for lack of a better term, an endless orgasm. It can be a place of pure silence and peace, or it can be a place where you are with all of your loved ones.

But we all share a common idea, no? Of course it will vary from person to person. But it is the concept that is the same.
[/b]

Exactly, The CONCEPTS are the Same and they are Really ''out there'', allthough they are differently interpretated and explained from person to person and culture to culture. Same as for any Spiritual vibe experienced by all of us: Religion is different from culture to culture, person to person: But they all are built around the same CONCEPT. You can obviously see that Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism...etc are different yet ALL built around the same Concepts.

Great post.

Originally Posted by Angelus

Just to clarify, I don't believe in New Age teachings.

Question for SKA: I remember someone saying that he was able to gather his memory in his dreams.

Were you able to do this?

I want to know if that guy truly thought rationally or if he just was able to manifest his memory, though he acted through his subconscious. I would think the latter would be the case; he acted with his subconscious, while his memory just acted as a side companion of sorts. Perhaps seeing the memory as a bag of tricks would be more appropriate; the person is the subconscious, and he/she takes "items" (in this case, memories and experiences) out of the bag when needed or as the need arises. Of course, this is just hypathetically.
[/b]

Well it is as I see it that when we reach the Dreaming State of Mind( The Subconcious) And are able to act conciously (LDing) one could easily REACH his or her Subconcious Mind: A part of you that has like an infinite archive of memories and experiences in the deepest Visual, Emotional, Olfactory and Auditile details.
I can understand why it would be easy to REACH and relive memories and experiences stored in the SubConcious since I believe we ''ARE'' in our Subconcious when we are Dreaming.

Just to clarify, I don't believe in New Age teachings.

Question for SKA: I remember someone saying that he was able to gather his memory in his dreams.

Were you able to do this?

I want to know if that guy truly thought rationally or if he just was able to manifest his memory, though he acted through his subconscious. I would think the latter would be the case; he acted with his subconscious, while his memory just acted as a side companion of sorts. Perhaps seeing the memory as a bag of tricks would be more appropriate; the person is the subconscious, and he/she takes "items" (in this case, memories and experiences) out of the bag when needed or as the need arises. Of course, this is just hypathetically.

About shared dreams, Leo himself had a shared dream.

You seem to be making a lot of "what if" statements, and not giving a whole lot of reasons. It's possible that as plato suggests, that glimpses of things that are beautiful are shadows on the wall of some greater realm or concept of truth and beauty that we're missing, that's one way to describe some of the experiences that can be had in lucid dreaming. However, it's not necessarily the logical descendant that these experiences are part of some kind of unifying idea of perfection. Just because shared dreams may be possible, that doesn't rule out an infinite number of other explanations. Perhaps there are currently unexplainable telepathic links between people and other objects through some kind of force we haven't identified or name d yet. We definitely haven't, and won't ever pin down the cause of everything in the universe. It can't be proven false or true for sure, so I'd say it suffices to say that it's possible.

Originally Posted by John

Perhaps there are currently unexplainable telepathic links between people and other objects through some kind of force we haven't identified or named yet.
[/b]

Case in point.

And you are right, they ARE all what if statements.

I don't claim for any of these points to be true. In fact, most are in question format, so you can answer.

This is simply a thread, not to be taken seriously. If I believed it all to be be pure and true, wouldn't I write a book? I am ignorant and quite possible oblivious to the truth, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

Leo? A shared dream?

Most interesting.

Also, is it normal for me to have 3 lucid (though not fully vivid yet) dreams within a week and some change? Perhaps I'm a "natural." Or maybe it'll all slip away in a few days. *shrugs*

I've had that many in a week (sometimes 2 in a day, one in the morning and one during an afternoon nap) without being particularly experienced at induction techniques, but I am somewhat of a natural as well, having had at least 10 or 15 over the course of my life before even doing the slightest bit of reading on the subject, where most people have a few or none. So yeah, you're probably more naturally inclined to have them than the average person.