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    Thread: The levels of lucidity.

    1. #1
      Eprac Diem arby's Avatar
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      The levels of lucidity.

      Levels of lucidity


      The know all, encompass all, definition for lucid dreaming has always been “Are you aware?” But, it’s often not that black and white. Where do semi-lucids fit in? Where can you find all the variations in non-lucidity? There is a vast grey area that has rarely been addressed. This system has been created to attempt to organize and categorize that grey area in relation to the white and the black and so to make it easier to understand and use.

      By strict dictionary definition, yes, there isn’t much between awareness and being unaware. However, there is much more to lucidity then can be expressed by a simple definition. A foremost factor when you think of the “lucidity” of dreams is how much that you realize you can do and how well the world conforms to fit you. In a dream where you are completely unaware, you will not realize that you can do anything. You may not even have control over yourself. In a dream on the opposite end of the spectrum, you understand – fundamentally- that you can do anything. This system is built upon that.

      Before continuing, I would first like to address one very important point. In our dreams, rarely is the world as it would be normally. There are many weird things that happen that are natural to the dream. These are the things we do not control and compose the “reality” in the dream. These are the Laws of the dream. Gravity is a good example of a law. In a dream, gravity can be different then the normal world. Often it is less. If gravity was half of what it is normally without any intervention, that would be a natural law of the dream. If you were to change it then it would then not be a natural law anymore. Laws can be anything. They can be naturally occurring super powers, bodily mutations or the fact that pink elephants do indeed exist. Understanding the laws and how you effect them is crucial in your understanding of your lucid level.

      The Levels

      0% - (Non-lucid)
      • You have no control over any aspect of the dream and you are not aware you are dreaming at all.
      • This is pretty self explanatory. It’s like watching a movie.
      • You can't even control your own actions.
      It’s often accepted that you get many of these dreams per night but fail to remember most to all of them. This can be attributed to the lack of engagement. Everything that is happening goes “into one ear and out the other” because you’re not really paying much attention.

      10% - (Non-lucid)
      • You are still blissfully unaware you are dreaming.
      • All that you do to effect the dream is limited and far between.
      • Any control you exert on the dream generally governs your own actions and decisions.
      Getting this level is rare because of how awkward it is. There is generally no precedent for “watching a movie” then every so often making the character do something else in your experiences. When this level does occur, it often will simply slide towards 0 or the 20-40 range and you will not remain in it for long.

      20% - (Non-lucid)
      • You do not know you are dreaming.
      • You control most of your own actions but the dream still pulls you along the path that it follows regardless of your personnel goals.
      30% - (Non-lucid)
      • In a perfect 30, you think you are in real life. You act and usually even make decisions as if you were in real life.
      • This is the level that most FAs start out on.
      • You have full control over yourself but you must abide to all of the laws of the dream. You can only jump so high, run so fast and can’t make things randomly appear.
      Now, here’s where the laws really come into play. If gravity was lower, you could jump higher and still be within the laws. If you were a star athlete, you would be able to run faster and if you had magical conjuring powers, you could make things randomly appear. These powers however would feel natural, normal, every day. They are what “should” be happening in the dream.

      40% - (Partial-lucid)
      • You begin to realize that it is a dream on a subconscious level.
      • You are bending the laws every so often but in small ways and you normally don't notice much of it
      For an example I’ll use my handy gravity scenario. You have to jump farther then you would normally be able to in the dream. Instead of finding another way around, you jump and make it! Here you’ve either bent gravity or your ability to jump. Normal circumstances tend to resume after the occurrence and the dream continues without a hitch.

      50% - (Partial-lucid)
      • You have realized it is a dream on a subconscious level.
      • The laws start to bend more in your favor. You could find yourself (moments before just an average human) wall jumping between buildings and jumping gigantic distances on a regular basis.
      • The dream laws however, stay intact for the most part.
      Here, when you are faced with an obstacle, your gut tells you that you can overcome it because in the back of your mind you know that it is just a dream. If you follow your gut and go for it, the dream will usually play out according to how your gut predicted ignoring most laws.

      60% - (Semi-lucid)
      • You know it is a dream on a subconscious level.
      • The laws of the dream begin to crumble and be replaced by what’s convenient.
      • In the 60% range, you only effect smaller things or things on a small scale.
      Now, it is often wondered how semi-lucidity can exist. Don’t you need that conscious awareness of the dream state that comes with full lucidity to choose what you do in a dream and have control of your surroundings? No. Simply put, a semi alters the dream by solving all problems. Lets use the typical nightmare scenario. You are running away from a monster and come to a brick wall. You look to the sky above it and think “I need to get up and over that NOW to avoid the monster behind me.” Then somewhere deep inside you think “I could get over that if I flew”. Your dream then manifests itself to that reality and your feet leave the ground. Your mind must already be assured in the fabrication of the dream for this to work however. You must also fail to realize it's a dream on the conscious level when everything does the limbo under the reality bar.

      70% - (Semi-lucid)
      • You know it is a dream on a subconscious level.
      • You are now doing things in the dream that blatantly contradict reality but still sort of meld into the fabric of the dream.
      • The dream laws are all but ignored when they get in your way.
      79% - (Semi-lucid)
      • The peak of semi-lucidity right before you break the barrier of awareness.
      • You pretty much know you are in a dream already. So much so that even the use of the word “dream” would dump you right in full lucidity.
      • Your dream conforms exactly to what’s convenient.
      • You are so engaged with the dream world that events in it can affect you as they would in real life. You get blaring emotional attachments to DCs and events can trigger actual bodily reactions such as mass adrenaline release.
      80% - (Full-lucid)
      • This is a lucid with a problem.
      • You have realized that you are dreaming but fail to control it.
      • You can barely control your own actions (If at all!)
      For example, you could panic about not knowing how to move your “dream limbs” and are therefore not be able to.

      85% - (Full-lucid)
      • You know it is a dream.
      • You can control most of your actions but there are laws that severely restrict you or work to ruin the dream.
      Examples could be that you are moving as if you were walking through wet cement (really slow movements) or an occurrence such as falling into the sky when you become lucid without logical cause. (both are real situations members have had)

      90% - (Full-lucid)
      • You know you are dreaming at a conscious level.
      • You can control your own actions but nothing else.
      • Your actions are all restricted to what the laws allow.
      92% - (Full-lucid)
      • You have the ability to bend some of the physical laws but still cannot make major changes to your reality.
      • You can jump higher but you still cannot ignore gravity completely(flying)
      94% - (Full-lucid)
      • You can bend and perhaps break most of the minor physical laws.
      • You can generally fly at this level and you are about as over-powered as a well-balanced superhero
      96% - (Full-lucid)
      • The majority of physical laws bend and often break whenever you try and go against them. You still cannot touch many of the fundamental laws however.
      • Here is the level where you can contradict reality by summoning things out of thin air.
      The fundamental laws contain the things that tend to make the dream world unstable if they are toyed with. This includes things such as time, what you are (transforming into an animal or object) or attempting to get 360 vision.

      98% - (Full-lucid)
      • You can break all physical laws and can bend most fundamental laws.
      Here is where you can do pretty much anything but there are a few elusive concepts that still slip beyond your reach.

      100% - (Full-lucid)
      • The dream is at your command, SIR!
      There is knowing that you are dreaming, then there’s Understanding that you are dreaming. You are the latter. You know you can do anything at a whim and are able to do so. You can manipulate the dream world fully. I think we all know what this level is all about so I’ll leave it at that XD

      And finally...

      110% - (Super-lucid)
      • This occurs when you dive way too deep. You realize that its actually you who is generating the textures, colors, sound ect. You then attempt to consciously fill in everything in the dream.
      Here's a little oddball. Its unstable and doesn't last very long. Our conscious mind is not nearly as efficient/powerful as our “dream mind” So, when we get passed the baton and attempt to maintain the perfection, we utterly fail. This usually leads to the dream imploding and you waking up. The best thing to do when this happens is to let the dream fade away and become vague enough with the eye candy that you can support is consciously.


      This is also the level the VILD begins on. Regaining control can be done in much the same way as entering a VILD.

      End Notes

      This system originated from my very own DJ (kept with pen and paper, not on this site). I started marking the lucidity levels down along with everything else. It worked so well that I thought I’d share it. =D Its main purpose is to tell a while lot about the dream without the dreamer having to go explaining a lot. Helps communication =D.

      If you like it be sure to use it in your journals =P

      You probably noticed a sharp decline in control from high Semi-lucid to low Full-lucid. This is because full lucid presents all those mental barriers (the foremost being placebo) that restrict what you can do. On that note, in no way does a higher percent mean a better dream. Its simply a classification. A 100% can become boring while the movie playing in 0% can be quite enjoyable.

      Comments/Constructive Criticism is appreciated. I want to know if this is actually helping anyone. =)

      Hope you like it.

      Cheers.
      Last edited by ExoByte; 10-18-2007 at 03:34 AM.

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      nice work arby, this will help when categorising my lucids, when i next have one, thanks alot


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      Member Riley's Avatar
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      Wow... this is a really good system. I think it'll help me greatly for trying to lucid dream.

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      Similar to mine, but you took a slightly different approach. I classified dreams by clearity and recall as well as what one can do in them. I had many more lucid levels and only a few levels for normal dreams: Dream Levels

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      I don't understand 20%. How is it possible to control your own actions without consciously doing it (you'd have to be lucid to consciously control your actions)? It is a bit of an oxymoron:

      You can't know what you are doing and not know what you're doing at the same time.

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      with a "gh" Oneironaught's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Casualtie View Post
      I don't understand 20%. How is it possible to control your own actions without consciously doing it (you'd have to be lucid to consciously control your actions)? It is a bit of an oxymoron:

      You can't know what you are doing and not know what you're doing at the same time.
      Keep in mind that dream control and lucidity in a dream are not the same thing. They often go hand-in-hand but, they are different entities.

      With dream control, I believe you are doing the "control actions" consciously, on some level. The distinguishing factor is that you do so without being aware that you are dreaming. You're performing the actions with the assumption that you're wide awake - you don't put two and two together. If or when you do you become lucid.

      For example, say you decide that the next time you have a nightmare you will confront your fears and dispatch of the dream threat. You may have a dream in which you are chased by a monster. If you suddenly remember that you wanted to defeat the next monster that threatens you one of two things might happen:

      1) You can realize, "Hey, this means I'm dreaming!"

      or

      2) Given the realism of the dream world - and typical blindness of the mind's eye to the illusory nature of the dream realm - the context of the dream may allow you to face the monster, beat it to a pulp, turn it into a butterfly, fly off on a dragon's back and return to your palace constructed entirely of gold and diamonds: all without ever realizing that you are dreaming.

      In the second possibilty, you merely realized, "Hey, that monster can't hurt me if I face it." You consciously chose not to run and to face the creature because you recalled information from waking life. The dreamer made the decision, not the dream. That's an example of dream control independent of lucidity.

    7. #7
      Member Edmaster's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaught View Post
      In the second possibilty, you merely realized, "Hey, that monster can't hurt me if I face it." You consciously chose not to run and to face the creature because you recalled information from waking life. The dreamer made the decision, not the dream. That's an example of dream control independent of lucidity.
      What if you still thought the monster could hurt you? I mean, in a non-LD, those claws and fire can seem pretty harmful. Let's say instead that you turned to face the monster for a slightly more rational reason, say because you thought you could fight back (like if in the dream you're a hero, have magic powers, a trained Navy SEAL, etc.) or because of another reason, like protecting someone?
      First LD: 2/4/07
      Second LD: 5/1/07

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      Eprac Diem arby's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Edmaster View Post
      What if you still thought the monster could hurt you? I mean, in a non-LD, those claws and fire can seem pretty harmful. Let's say instead that you turned to face the monster for a slightly more rational reason, say because you thought you could fight back (like if in the dream you're a hero, have magic powers, a trained Navy SEAL, etc.) or because of another reason, like protecting someone?
      That would be about 30%. The "real life dream". You have enough of your wits around you to control your actions and you follow the laws of the dream. (if you have magical powers in the dream and its because thats how the dream ended up turning by itself, thats one of the laws of the dream. Something that should "logcally" happen.

      What One described is more among the ranks of 50%

      I need to revise this. XD... I simply sat down and typed this all up. Ninja, your system is pretty good. It's given me ideas on how to expand uopn somestuff as well as wording. I also have to make everything clearer (always a problem with my writing >.<) and easier for people who are just starting off to understand.

      I've no time right now but its the first thing i'll do whne I get home this afternoon.

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      with a "gh" Oneironaught's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Edmaster View Post
      What if you still thought the monster could hurt you? I mean, in a non-LD, those claws and fire can seem pretty harmful. Let's say instead that you turned to face the monster for a slightly more rational reason, say because you thought you could fight back (like if in the dream you're a hero, have magic powers, a trained Navy SEAL, etc.) or because of another reason, like protecting someone?
      You're completely correct in that being a possible conclusion. That's what I mean by "the context of the dream". The two examples I listed aren't intended to encompass all possible paths a dream may take. I only choose those two possibilities to illustrate the contrast between dream control and lucidity and that they can, indeed, occur independently of each other.

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      To be lucid dreaming, or have lucidity, is to know that you're dreaming. You can't know that you're dreaming more or less. Either you know it, or you don't.

      Nice anyway though. Don't see how it helps though.

      ---------
      Lost count of how many lucid dreams I've had
      ---------

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      with a "gh" Oneironaught's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo View Post
      To be lucid dreaming, or have lucidity, is to know that you're dreaming. You can't know that you're dreaming more or less. Either you know it, or you don't.

      Nice anyway though. Don't see how it helps though.
      Who are you responding to? There definitely are multiple levels of lucidity. Like arby said:

      There is knowing that you are dreaming, then there’s Understanding that you are dreaming.
      I love that line because it points out that there are subtleties to lucidity that aren't always apparent on the surface.

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      To be lucid means to know that you are dreaming. Understanding that you are dreaming can not be defined as lucid-dreaming. It's something else.

      ---------
      Lost count of how many lucid dreams I've had
      ---------

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      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo View Post
      To be lucid means to know that you are dreaming. Understanding that you are dreaming can not be defined as lucid-dreaming. It's something else.
      Huh? The understanding of the dream state means that, not only are you aware that you are dreaming but, you realize the implications that come along with it. Those implications are things like: "Everything around me is a construct of my own mind" and "I don't have to go around this wall, I can pass directly through it. In fact, there is no wall here; I only perceive it to be so."

      It's common to be aware of the dream yet still be a slave to the dream, doing things that are required in real life but that are mere convention in the dream world. Let's say you know full well that you're dreaming and you want to go somewhere. If you seek out a taxi - because 'that's the way to get places' - then you may be at a lower level of lucidity than, say, you realize that taxis aren't required here and that you don't have to follow rules such as gravity and normal modes of physical transportation.

      In other words, you can very well be lucid (tacitly knowing) yet be implicitly convinced that the world around you is solid and "real" (not understanding that you are dreaming).

      To put it another way: Your boss gives you the keys to the store and says, "So long. Take good care of this place; I'm done here. Time for me to move on." You know that you are now in charge of the store but you may not understand that you now own the place and can make your own rules, sell your own product, hire your own employees and rearrange the place to your own liking.

      Knowing and understanding are not necessarily the same discipline at all.

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      That's what I said. To be lucid is to know you're dreaming. To understand is something else.

      There are only 2 levels of lucidity. The "I know I'm dreaming" level, and the "I do not know I'm dreaming" level. You can't know it 'more'.

      ---------
      Lost count of how many lucid dreams I've had
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo View Post
      That's what I said.
      But, that's not what you are saying.

      To be lucid is to know you're dreaming. To understand is something else.
      But, to understand requires that you first know, which means that understanding is a higher level of lucidity (knowing). Knowing is knowing but understanding is knowing what it means.

      There are only 2 levels of lucidity. The "I know I'm dreaming" level, and the "I do not know I'm dreaming" level. You can't know it 'more'.
      You actually can "know it more". Ask just about anyone here at DV. "I do not know I'm dreaming" is not a level of lucidity. It's a level of non-lucidity.

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      I don't care what anyone else thinks. According to what lucid means in the connection with dreaming, there is only one possible level. To know that you're dreaming.

      Control and awareness is something else.

      You were right on the last one though, it's a level of non-lucidity, I was wrong there.

      ---------
      Lost count of how many lucid dreams I've had
      ---------

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      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo View Post
      I don't care what anyone else thinks.
      So be it.

      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo
      You were right on the last one though, it's a level of non-lucidity...
      Do you agree that there are levels of non-lucidity or is that clear-cut black and white as well?

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      Huh? There should only be one level. You can't be less of something you arren't.

      What I meant about not caring was to this.

      Ask just about anyone here at DV.
      I'm quite sure other people will agree with me. It's quite obvious, that you can't be more aware that you're dreaming. Either you know it, or you don't.

      As I said, awareness and control is something else. So is understanding.

      ---------
      Lost count of how many lucid dreams I've had
      ---------

    19. #19
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      I've been watching this discussion with interest. The Levels thing is something that really seems to apply to my lucid dreams, as my awareness of ability to control circumstances and even stay lucid varies wildly. Another thing that varies is my "immersion" in the dreams - how much "into" the dream I am and how realistic it all feels. That ranges from a sense of watching a lousy cartoon to more intense than real life.

      So I think you guys are getting tangled up in semantics here. Sure, you are either aware or not - but how aware are you? How much of your consciousness is ENGAGED? You can be aware there is a dog crouching off to the left of your field of view, or you can be staring the critter down... much different levels of awareness there, too.

      With LDs, that level of engagement varies wildly, along with control, sensation, ability to THINK, and general awareness of the circumstances. None of these can be defined in a binary manner.

      IMHO. Your mileage may well vary.
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      60% - (Semi-lucid) You know it is a dream on a subconscious level. Your actions generally go ungoverned by the laws of the dream world. You may sometimes effect the dream world (such as manipulation of objects, or time) but it doesn't come to your attention you are doing it.
      So THIS is why sometimes my dreams seem real and I think I'm awake but I do really stupid things that would usually get me beaten up or something... Thank you for explaining it!
      The lucidity levels are interesting because of what could trigger them... I believe dreams are always vivid and we either are present in them or not...
      LD count: 25 and counting
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      As many have said the two levels are


      Im not dreaming=
      like watching a movie,you have no control and you cant think im just gonna go throughe this wall,unless your unconciouse mind chosses to force you to go through.


      I realize i am dreaming=
      close to complete control,have the choice to go through the wall or summon other people or other things.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dream_Dood View Post
      As many have said the two levels are


      Im not dreaming=
      like watching a movie,you have no control and you cant think im just gonna go throughe this wall,unless your unconciouse mind chosses to force you to go through.


      I realize i am dreaming=
      close to complete control,have the choice to go through the wall or summon other people or other things.
      Well that's your view... It's a subjective classification so there are no rights or wrongs.
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      Lightbulb My final analogies (then I give up):

      Quote Originally Posted by Dream_Dood View Post
      As many have said the two levels are


      Im not dreaming=
      like watching a movie,you have no control and you cant think im just gonna go throughe this wall,unless your unconciouse mind chosses to force you to go through.


      I realize i am dreaming=
      close to complete control,have the choice to go through the wall or summon other people or other things.
      Those are two possible states: on or off, yes or no. They aren't levels, per se`. You see, a stereo can be on or off as well. But do you realize that even those conditions can have degrees, or levels, of being or not being? If your stereo is off is it really completely off? Or is it in standby? Quiescence isn't really off but it sure isn't what you'd consider "on".

      When that same stereo is on is it really completely on? Is the output muted? Is it at full volume? Or how about some level in between?

      On/off, to be/not to be, yes/no - those are all sets of opposing states, or conditions, but they aren't the only two states that can be.

      Off: I'm not on a sports team and don't care to be. Some one else is also not on a sports team but they are in the process of being hired. Those are both degrees (levels) of not being but I think you'll agree that they are indeed different levels, albeit, both in the same family.

      On: Player X is on a sports team but serves as a glorified bench warmer, almost never getting play time. Player Y is also on that very same team yet gets play time every game. He has the ability to carry the team to victory while player X is barely 'on the team'. Those are both degrees (levels) of being but I think that once again you'll agree that they are two different levels of involvement.

      I know I'm giving all these wild examples but I think it's worth understanding that just because you're lucid doesn't mean that you're fully "there" in all its glory. Being aware only puts you in the class. "Understanding" (awareness with faculties) puts you at the front of the class. They're both in school but, only one is getting honors.

      Quote Originally Posted by pj
      The Levels thing is something that really seems to apply to my lucid dreams, as my awareness of ability to control circumstances and even stay lucid varies wildly. Another thing that varies is my "immersion" in the dreams - how much "into" the dream I am and how realistic it all feels. That ranges from a sense of watching a lousy cartoon to more intense than real life.
      I completely agree. My experiences parallel your assessment. That's why I can state with such conviction that levels within each group - lucid and non - can and do exist.

    24. #24
      Eprac Diem arby's Avatar
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      [UPDATE!]

      I was just able to get my post updated by a mod (thanks PJ) and my internet dies... XD. Figures. It was a problem with my router. My router randomly died and my computer rebooted.. (WTF?)

      Anyways, I rewrote/revised pretty much everything. Most of it will actually make sense now to those that didn't get it. I'm gonna take comments then i'll probably do a small, final revision and sumbit it as a tut on the weekend.

      But dam.. it's sexy now XD

    25. #25
      with a "gh" Oneironaught's Avatar
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      Let me note that in the pre-lucid, or semi-lucid, state you may suspect you're dreaming or even think you're probably dreaming but fail to become lucid due to failure to perform an RC or a failed RC.

      I've had several dreams in which I suspected a dream but for one reason or another I did a [email protected] reality check or simply decided to wait to confirm that I'm dreaming. These cases did not result in lucidity but, the notion did occur to my conscious mind.

      It's often said that if you think you're dreaming then you are. That's a good rule of thumb but it does not guarantee that the suspicion will bootstrap lucidity.

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