OOBE's proved wrong

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Also how would you prove it's your soul leaving your body, then your head? first..you will have to know what a soul is made of if there is 1, and
then you will have to understand the functions of it wouldn't you? the Brain seems more likely because we know the brain...not the soul and how it would work with the body.
For all we know all the things happening can be part of the soul or something. Also, with the critics they will go out of their way to disprove the soul and shove asmuch scientific crap down our throats even if
the soul "somehow" gets proven which i got to say...it will be a LONG time if ever. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Neurons, and whatever else drives us to see these illusions/feel the things we do can be
all normal things. We understand it but not every inch of detail and because the body reacts the way it does to these things doesn't mean they are fake illusions, maybe they are part of the whole thing.

What would be the point in given a soul for the body if you cannot use the body to go whererever it is we go? or function to get to the places if you wish?
Maybe it is an illusion and there really is nothing and life is really a mistake. 1 life and nothing after would obviously mean we are a mistake..there is no point to even exist especially if you die at or just after birth because the rest of the time it is nothingness from something forever.

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So you're saying it's your brain leaving your body instead of your soul? Well, that doesn't really make sense because other people would see your brain floating around. Something would have to leave your body, and if your brain left your body I think your head would become split open. lol

I don't believe in souls, ghosts, miracles, or anything that cannot be logically explained through scientific methods. LDs I fully believe in because I've had them. If miracles could happen, why hasn't a severed arm ever grown back? I'd love to see that.

I know people are getting tired of this argument, but remember, a caveman could tell you that he has irrefutable scientific proof that the world is flat.

I don't see why people get so riled up at the idea of existence outside the body. Loss of control? God's punishment? I'll blame religion on this one.

see my last post. If OBE does not exist is shared dreaming possible? Or would it also be just imagination inside your own head, no matter how real it seems?

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Originally Posted by sivason

see my last post. If OBE does not exist is shared dreaming possible? Or would it also be just imagination inside your own head, no matter how real it seems?

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I've had tons of LDs where I was with someone from real life, and I actually thought it was them. I then realized we might be dream sharing, so I did a few things to see if they would remember it.

One day I woke up after a dream share with my mom, and realized she had been at work for the entire time I had been dreaming. So it was all in my head.

I'd like to think dream sharing is possible, but very very very unlikely. Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.

I have had the same thing before. Honestly beliving I met a family member only to realize they where awake at that time. I do however think I may be seeing other dreamers as my family, in forms familiar to me. I also run into the same DCs over and over who tell me they are real, they control the dream more than me even if I am 'god lucid' when I do not have the shared dream experiance. HMMM, if this is a 10+ year hoax my brain is pulling (and it just may be, who knows) it sure is cool that the brain could trick me like that and keep it up. Brains are so cool.

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Originally Posted by sivason

PROVE to me that man did not lie about his experiment. Prove to me he did not know the pattern his subjects eyes allways move in sleep and fake his results. PROVE to me that lucid dreams exist? It can not be done.

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Why should we prove it to you?
If you don't believe it read the articles and research on the subject, instead of just asking others to prove it for you. And if you aren't satisfied, than conduct experiments yourself.
Existence of LDs can be proved by asking people to move their eyes in a certain way while they are LDing, and making sure they are really asleep by checking their brainwave frequency.

What difference does it make whether an OBE is really an out of body experience, or whether it is just an extremely vivid lucid dream?

And who cares if someone else doesn't believe in them? That doesn't make them any more unreal to people who experience them.

The point is they are a lot of fun, and are much more vivid than a normal lucid dream.

Although some near death experiences may be nothing more than a very vivid dream or something a person is imagining, I think it would be a little hard to refute someone who actually left their body and then hovered over their body and watched what happened to their body while they were dead for a brief time, and who are later able to explain to other people what they saw happening.

The first time I came tumbling back into my body after having been out of it, and the first time I woke up to find myself floating above my body and being conscious of both my spirit which was floating above my body, and at same time being conscious of my body which was laying in the bed, was all I needed to be convinced that I am more than a body, and that a spirit does indeed exist on the inside of me which is capable of leaving my body at times.

I wouldn't expect someone who has never experienced an OBE to believe in them. The fact that they choose to limit their beliefs and the possiblities of what they might be able to accomplish by believing something like that is their own business.

I certainly won't allow their limited beliefs to limit me on what I am capable of accomplishing myself.

If I wanted to learn something about astral projection or having an out of body experience, I would be wanting to read a book by someone like Sylvan Muldoon, Robert Monroe, or Robert Bruce, who has experienced it, instead of listening to a couple of comics who don't know anything about it, and are able to present only a very weak and pathetic argument about its non-existence.

And as far as that video goes, I think the first word of the video BULLSHIT pretty well describes the video.

I'd be more inclined to believe the people in the video describing their near death experiences than anything the two clowns who made up this video are trying to prove, because I see absolutely no proof that they offered that OBE's don't exist, as it is very possible that the people who passed out while riding the simulator ended up out of their bodies when they passed out.

Where is the proof? This video is pure BULLSHIT! They no more proved that OBE's don't exist than the people describing their experiences proved that they do exist.

People can believe whatever they wish, because it really makes no difference whether they are an OBE or an extremly vivid dream. Whatever they are, they happen, and the people who experience them are usually moved by them.

It is interesting that a person can experience a near death type of experience by riding around and around in one of those simulators until they pass out. This might just be one of the safest and most reliable ways for a person to experience an obe or near death experience. I wonder how long it will take someone to start marketing this, and advertising it as a near death experience ride? Before long every amusement park may have one of these rides. I want one right here in my house. What an awesome idea. I wonder how dangerous it would be for someone to do this on a regular basis?

Meanwhile, until I can afford one of these for my own house, I may start experimenting with riding in something like this in my imagination when I go to bed at night to see if I can produce my own obe or near death experience.

Thanks for posting the link lvlindless. Although I consider their arguments to be pure BULLSHIT, it has at least given me some great ideas on how to have more obe's myself.

This doesn't really prove much in my opinion. It's a best guess at what happens. I mean blood leaving brain etc. causing hallucinations okay yeah, but as for other things.... I mean yeah I am still considering it as a possibility.

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Originally Posted by lvlindless

So you're saying it's your brain leaving your body instead of your soul? Well, that doesn't really make sense because other people would see your brain floating around. Something would have to leave your body, and if your brain left your body I think your head would become split open. lol

I don't believe in souls, ghosts, miracles, or anything that cannot be logically explained through scientific methods. LDs I fully believe in because I've had them. If miracles could happen, why hasn't a severed arm ever grown back? I'd love to see that.

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No, i am saying we have no idea what the right functions are working for OBE. The brain and the soul can have the same working functions in the body leading to OBE. Scientists say it's not the soul, but they have no idea what is a soul and what functions the body has with the soul. Neurons? they rule that out and think it's just the body. It cannot be the soul's functions with the body to them. Fact is no side can prove anything no matter what they say and the evidence that is thrown.

Just because there is a physiological explanation doesn't mean there isn't spiritual relevance in near death situations.
I agree it is essentially a dream or hallucination, but I think dreams and hallucinations might have great meaning.
It's just like somebody believing evolution means no God or God means no evolution.
Why can't people make the connection of science and spirituality.
Where theres physical there is also spiritual. Somehow it just doesn't make sense to just have one or the other. "Hallucination" is the scientific word for the religious "vision". We just call them visions when they have significant meaning or prophecy.

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Originally Posted by jamous

Penn and Teller are hypocrites too...
they say people bank off of OBE accounts, but they're the ones "out to make a buck", making a big pretentious statement that OBEs are "BULLSHIT". Because they know it means something to people, and it doesn't to them (because they half think it) and they profit off the big stink of "debunking spirituality".

These guys make athiests look really bad.

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Indeed.

I don't have a formed opinion in this matter but when I want scientific research I'll ask real scientists, instead of getting my answers from some pseudo-intellectual illusionists.

That's doesn't really prove OBEs and NDE wrong, but it proves those certain situations wrong, in the film.

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Originally Posted by sivason

Alot of people have dreams where they precive other entities, like another lucid dreamer. They PRECIEVE that they are playing games with other groups of dreamers. I have those kind of dreams. Do the people who don't believe in OBE then think this is just fantasy created in the minds of dreamers. I sure have an elaborate set of long term relationships with some of these dreamers. OR LET ME SAY... I have precieved for years that many dreamers can share a common dream. Do any of you think this is just a very complex hallucination or overwhelmingly detailed self delusion?> Is it not related to OBE? I mean can shared dreams exist while OBE do not?

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There are a lot of topics on shared dreaming on this forum, you can use the search function to find them. Suffice it to say that the majority of people here don't believe in them, or at least are very very skeptical.

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Originally Posted by iadr

It is interesting that a person can experience a near death type of experience by riding around and around in one of those simulators until they pass out. This might just be one of the safest and most reliable ways for a person to experience an obe or near death experience. I wonder how long it will take someone to start marketing this, and advertising it as a near death experience ride? Before long every amusement park may have one of these rides. I want one right here in my house. What an awesome idea. I wonder how dangerous it would be for someone to do this on a regular basis?

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I believe those were dis-continued. They're not very good for your brain, and could mess you up.

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Originally Posted by lvlindless

I believe those were dis-continued. They're not very good for your brain, and could mess you up.

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Centrifuges like that aren't really dangerous as long as you're medically monitored, and medically fit to go in one. In a military setting, there are flight surgeons around to make sure everything goes ok. I can see them not being like a carnival ride, mostly for liability reasons.

On topic: This video is a good explanation of NDEs, and I personally believe it, but it's not PROOF. Unfortunately, for those who truly believe in this, nobody will ever be able to provide sufficient proof they don't exist.

I love this "you can't prove it doesn't exist........ therefore it does!!!" mentality, where the believers' strongest claim for legitimacy is lack of absolute proof (that's impossible to get) that they're wrong.

Every night I dream because a purple unicorn leaps out of my nose and whispers in my ear. This happens to everyone. And oh yeah, I'm the only one that's able to perceive the purple nose unicorns because I have a unique paranormal gift. Prove me wrong!!!!!

why do people dismiss these obes and near death experience...have they never looked further beyond there nose. do they not understand that we are living on a lump of rock spinning in space that goes on forever.so they made someone have a nde by messing with there brain,how does that prove its only a dream,how do they know that what they done to the brain was a way of unlocking the door to whatever happens when we die, who knows?

It's their opinion on what they believe, just like your opinion on believing OBE/NDE's. I'm glad people doubt it...what kind of world would we live in if everyone believed in everything everyone else believed in? The fact is, when we are dead for good we will know if all of this is true, or not. Or we wont because you will be nothingness.

Talk talk talk.
It doesn't do anything on this subject. Your wasting your time and lives.


If you believe in OOBEs then thats fine, have fun being a superhuman that can see any event of your choosing whenever you feel like it.

If you don't believe in OOBEs then too bad for you I guess, your just going to have to live in this shitty little unexciting place we call real life. Have fun.

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People that can OOBE: why the hell do you care if we don't believe you? In your mind your better than us anyway, while we sit around and tell ourselves that our world is a little predicable piece of horse dung you get to fly around in outerspace really exploring new worlds and species.
The last thing you should be worried about is whether or not some ignorant hypocrites believe that what your doing is real.

People that don't believe: Quit bitching about how OOBEs are bullshit. You believe they're bullshit? Great, good for you. In your opinion all these "idiots" who believe that OOBEs are real are like children. Your soooo much better then them, you aren't a crazy person that believes everything they perceive.
Be happy of that fact. If someone your talking to tells you that they believe in OOBEs then just tell them why you don't and leave it at that.

We all have our own beliefs, I believe that OOBEs could be possible but not very likely.
Why do I believe this? Because I don't think I'd be very happy if I believed what everything I've ever known is telling me:
We're just a bunch of self-aware biological machines that are going to stop taking in information someday --We're all just going to die. No pretty lights, no infinite bliss. Just blackness and total unconsciousness.



We all have to find our own ways to cope with death. Lets all just let one another believe whatever the hell we want.
Of course, that shouldn't stop you from telling other WHY you believe what you believe. Just remember that these belief systems are what keep us from commiting suicide on a daily basis. They're pretty much completely ingrained into the core of our mind.
Its not very likely I'm going to start believing we all go to Disneyland when we die just because some two year old told me so.

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Originally Posted by iadr

It is interesting that a person can experience a near death type of experience by riding around and around in one of those simulators until they pass out. This might just be one of the safest and most reliable ways for a person to experience an obe or near death experience. I wonder how long it will take someone to start marketing this, and advertising it as a near death experience ride? Before long every amusement park may have one of these rides. I want one right here in my house. What an awesome idea. I wonder how dangerous it would be for someone to do this on a regular basis?

Meanwhile, until I can afford one of these for my own house, I may start experimenting with riding in something like this in my imagination when I go to bed at night to see if I can produce my own obe or near death experience.

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You guys did know I was joking about this didn't you? :D All except the last part of possibly trying to produce something like this in my imagination when I go to bed at night.

Like Bear said, the liability would be far to great for something like this to ever become a carnival ride. Although I would not put it past some ambitious entrepreneur to try to market something like this on a smaller scale where they would charge people an outrageous fee, and then make them sign a waver releasing their company from any liability.

Although I wonder how many people would really be interested in it, as unless a person was in pretty good physically condition something like this could just end up making them really sick.

Better just to create something like this in ones imagination. I have heard of people imagining themselves riding on a roller coaster before to help them exit their body, but have never had any luck with that myself.

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Just blackness and total unconsciousness.

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Nah, not even blackness. Just nothingness. It will be like before you remembered everything...before you first became aware it was all nothingness, after death it will continue being that if that's true. First thought i am aware of i was looking in a mirror and saying i can tie my shoelace at age 4. Before that it was nothing. It's obviously hard to explain but you get the picture. Anyway that's just 1 possability.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Actually you can show that you can be given a task and remember to do that task once you are asleep. LaBerge did experiments where he made up some eye movement patterns for his subjects to do, and they remembered to do them once they were asleep. He was able to see their physical eyes move in those patterns while the subject was asleep.

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I'm going to play Devil's advocate, here, because I've thought about this one, a time or two.

Were I a biased skeptic of something like lucid dreaming, and fought against the nature of it being possible, as many people fight against the possibility of many "paranormal" things, I would say something like:

"The fact that they could move their eyes in a pre-conceived sequence proves nothing!! They were told what kind of pattern to move their eyes in, and they've focused so much on that pattern, or held that pattern so predominately, even subconsciously, that it happened, automatically, within their dream state. It is nothing more than a form of auto-suggestion! It was an unconscious response to all of their time thinking about the experiment, while still awake!!"

I really have no vested interest in whether or not OOBE's are real or not, and I'm not trying to contradict you. You and I both know how real lucid dreaming is, in the way that only the person experiencing them, at the time, can truly know. The main reason I brought it up is because this is something that I'd recently thought about, and wondered what others might think about that concept. :)

One, yes, but if one is to think that way, pretty much all proof in the universe can be debunked, someway.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

"The fact that they could move their eyes in a pre-conceived sequence proves nothing!! They were told what kind of pattern to move their eyes in, and they've focused so much on that pattern, or held that pattern so predominately, even subconsciously, that it happened, automatically, within their dream state. It is nothing more than a form of auto-suggestion! It was an unconscious response to all of their time thinking about the experiment, while still awake!!"

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I've thought about that too, but, I can't really imagine how it would be possible for someone to remember a (fairly) complex pattern while not conscious in the dream state. You would have to just happen to be having a dream where LaBerge is telling you to do this..

Em, I know what I am trying to say but I'm having a hard time putting it into words. I guess also for something like that to be ingrained into your subconscious so that you could perform the act while not lucid, you would have to be thinking about it for days upon days.. and that wasn't the case for the test subjects.

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Originally Posted by lvlindless

So... the ultimate lucid dreams.

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It sounds good but remember, a lucid dream is a dream in which you are aware that you are dreaming. In an "OBE", the person having the experience thinks they are actually outside of their body. They don't believe themselves to be dreaming at all.