Thread: Lucid Dreaming Controversy

the essential skepticism is that our "lucid dreams" are merely dreams.

well, they are.

it is simply the authenticity of the lucidity that is in question.

let's turn this whole thing around, for fun...:

How do you prove someone is lucid in waking life? Maybe that would begin to clarify what exactly is meant by consciousness... my suspicion is that for most people (including me) becoming lucid in waking life is as hard a task as becoming fully lucid in a dream.

Originally Posted by dreamMeUp

well, they are.



let's turn this whole thing around, for fun...:

How do you prove someone is lucid in waking life? Maybe that would begin to clarify what exactly is meant by consciousness... my suspicion is that for most people (including me) becoming lucid in waking life is as hard a task as becoming fully lucid in a dream.

Consider Rene Descartes' "Meditations".
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if you are referring to the Descartes quote "Cogito ergo sum" - that, from my experiences and in my opinion, is wrong in almost too many ways to quickly describe in a format like this one here.

But what would you personally say how to tackle the definition and testing of full consciousness in waking life?

Originally Posted by dreamMeUp

if you are referring to the Descartes quote "Cogito ergo sum" - that, from my experiences and in my opinion, is wrong in almost too many ways to quickly describe in a format like this one here.

But what would you personally say how to tackle the definition and testing of full consciousness in waking life?

No, I am referring to his discourse on how we cannot be sure that we are awake or not. Descartes was a oneironaut.
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No, I am referring to his discourse on how we cannot be sure that we are awake or not. Descartes was a oneironaut.

wow, that's interesting! I didn't know he was... does he refer to those experiences in his texts?

I will try to outline my views on what defines consciousness (I was hoping to learn about your views, but maybe you are waiting for a little more efforts from my side before you start to type this out? )


I must say that the question wether we are awake or not is, to my mind, not the crucial one.
The question as I see it is:

In both dreaming and waking states...

- ...how to ascertain for ourselves that we are fully conscious (including the criteria for full consciousness as well as how to check for those criteria)

- ...how to ascertain this state in communication with or examination of someone, i.e. from the outside.

I think the first one is already difficult enough, awake or dreaming.

I read a good post by someone around here on how he raises his level of lucidity in a dream. These were mostly methods involving concentration on sensual receptions (visual, audio, tactile and other stimuli).
"Thought" as an activity was not a vital part of the list of things to do.

And it works great for me - in both waking life and in dreams!
In my mother tongue, consciousness translates to a combination of "being" and "aware".
I feel that while the mind is a great problem solving tool for a certain type of problems, it is not identical with my consciousness or who I essentially am.

On the contrary: high rational activity stops me from being aware as its main subjects are the past and the future, evaluating what has been, drawing conclusions for future decisions (for example).

The subject of the consciousness, as I see it, is the present. That's why focusing on sensual perceptions grounds me in the present and therefore raises my notion of being aware (fully conscious).

Now, that is only the view from the inside. How to examine that from the outside I got no clue.

What do you think about the criteria for being fully conscious?
Do you think they are different in waking and dreaming state?

This is really a fascinating discussion. I feel I can learn things from it about myself!

Originally Posted by dreamMeUp

wow, that's interesting! I didn't know he was... does he refer to those experiences in his texts?

Yes, I cannot recall the exact pages at this moment, but he frequently talks about how "reality checks" done in dreams have the same significance in waking state.

(I was hoping to learn about your views, but maybe you are waiting for a little more efforts from my side before you start to type this out? )

Sorry, my views in regards to what..?

I must say that the question wether we are awake or not is, to my mind, not the crucial one.
The question as I see it is:

In both dreaming and waking states...

- ...how to ascertain for ourselves that we are fully conscious (including the criteria for full consciousness as well as how to check for those criteria)

- ...how to ascertain this state in communication with or examination of someone, i.e. from the outside.

I think the first one is already difficult enough, awake or dreaming.

I read a good post by someone around here on how he raises his level of lucidity in a dream. These were mostly methods involving concentration on sensual receptions (visual, audio, tactile and other stimuli).
"Thought" as an activity was not a vital part of the list of things to do.

And it works great for me - in both waking life and in dreams!
In my mother tongue, consciousness translates to a combination of "being" and "aware".
I feel that while the mind is a great problem solving tool for a certain type of problems, it is not identical with my consciousness or who I essentially am.

On the contrary: high rational activity stops me from being aware as its main subjects are the past and the future, evaluating what has been, drawing conclusions for future decisions (for example).

The subject of the consciousness, as I see it, is the present. That's why focusing on sensual perceptions grounds me in the present and therefore raises my notion of being aware (fully conscious).

Now, that is only the view from the inside. How to examine that from the outside I got no clue.

What do you think about the criteria for being fully conscious?
Do you think they are different in waking and dreaming state?

This is really a fascinating discussion. I feel I can learn things from it about myself!

This is the crucial point of the controversy.

I can relate to you because these are the same grounds that I attain lucidity. I always look at my hand and go through the senses per finger to try and determine my surroundings. Often, I need not to use my hand and can instinctively do it (but I worry that it is not the same).

Full consciousness is difficult. We could argue about it on philosophic grounds, but, for the sake of practicality, I think it best to say when the brain is functioning on beta waves and produces monoamine neurotransmitters.
~

Sorry, my views in regards to what..?

Ah, sry, I was interested in your views as to wether proving someone is fully conscious is not just as hard in a waking state as in a dreaming state.

We could argue about it on philosophic grounds, but, for the sake of practicality, I think it best to say when the brain is functioning on beta waves and produces monoamine neurotransmitters.

okay - first of all: you seem to be pretty biochemics savvy and I would like to kindly ask you if you could point me to online resources which can give me as a layman some insight into the significance of those aspects (Wikipedia does the job? Which keywords? Or other resources?) so I can really follow your points.

I am assuming that the mentioned neurotransmitters and beta waves are both part of what might happen while asleep, too?

I can see that it might be more practical to be kind of reducing consciousness on measurable biochemics. The question you (the general you) would have to deal with beforehand, though, is which kind of brain activity patterns are connected with the feeling of being fully conscious (as determined by subjective assumption) and which patterns are connected to the act of, for example, rational problem solving.

Then you would have a reference of patterns which you could apply to various dreaming state brain conditions and thus make a statement as to the probable level of consciousness.

EDIT: I would like to add that if the mentioned data does not show any significant change of patterns (in waking state) with the individual in a state of perceived consciousness on the one hand or in a state of rational reasoning on the other hand (or other defined states of perceived lower level consciousness) then it might indicate that consciousness as such might be a matter of pure imagination or you could argue that this change of feelings should manifest somewhere in the body physically, thus making the whole thing a search for the right places to examine.