Why is dreaming frowned upon?

[Artixknight]

Honestly, why do people frown upon dreaming so much? --- Jim: Hey Bob! I just had this really weird dream last night! Bob: *rolls eyes* Cool, Jim. Let's try and keep it to yourself. Jim: I really have to tell someone! It was weird! Kinda like it came out of a movie. Bob: Alrighty then, Jim, let's hear it. Jim: O.K., so I was at the park when this alien U.F.O flew out of the sky... Bob: *ignores Jim* Jim: And thats when it ended. Bob: That's great. Now we can get on with our lives in reality. Jim: Uh... yeah, I guess. Bob: Cool. Let's go out and get some lunch. Jim - but you know what, the funny thing is, I knew that I was dreaming the whole time... Bob: I thought we were done talking about that. Dreams are meaningless. MEANINGLESS. They're just fluids in your brain moving around at night! You never knew you were dreaming, it's all in your head. And if you did know you were dreaming, then you're probably doing witchcraft or something. Now let's go. Jim: O.K. You're right. Dreams are meaningless. Let's go. --- People say that dreams are meaningless. They assume anyone who lucid dreams is insane or is into witchcraft. But why do they think this way? Dreams are important! Health wise, for one. Also, dreams are included in many, many songs. Dreams have inspired people to paint famous paintings and make famous sculptures! Dreams are included in so many books and movies. They take us to places where we can escape from reality for a little while every night. Dreams are great! And let's not forget Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream

[shotbirds]

Maybe because those people aren't as 'deep'. I notice when I tell my 'shallow' friends about it they look at me like 'wtf are you talking about man' but some of my friends get into it and actually understand what I'm talking about. The shallow ones don't find it appealing either.

[Oneironaut Zero]

Bob: I thought we were done talking about that. Dreams are meaningless. MEANINGLESS. They're just fluids in your brain moving around at night! You never knew you were dreaming, it's all in your head. And if you did know you were dreaming, then you're probably doing witchcraft or something. Now let's go. Well...above all else: Bob is an idiot. Plain and simple. Aside from that: We live in a world full of materialists. The only thing that matters to many people are the things that they can quantify - that they can hold in their hands, put in their wallets, or show off to their friends. Their own ignorance/ego/fear/what-have-you doesn't allow them to see any deeper than that.

[MadHatter17]

This is strange I've never experienced this element in our society. I mean my friends weren't all especially interested, I suppose some of them might have been thinking it was bs when I mentioned LDing but no one outright said its impossible or accused me of witchcraft.

[NightLife]

We can all look to DreamViews because dreaming isn't frowned upon here... Hehe... Those types of people have to experience lucid dreams before they can say anything negative about it...

[MadHatter17]

Well...above all else: Bob is an idiot. Plain and simple. Aside from that: We live in a world full of materialists. The only thing that matters to many people are the things that they can quantify - that they can hold in their hands, put in their wallets, or show off to their friends. Their own ignorance/ego/fear/what-have-you doesn't allow them to see any deeper than that. You know its funny because there's also an considerable group that gets most of its satisfaction from intangible things. Namely, video gamers. I play video games too, but you wont catch me yammering on about my gamer score or any such thing. Meanwhile these same people are slow to realize the value of certain sentimental material things. Reminds me of this old conversation about table top miniature games, the kind that cost a fair amount of money for figures you paint. Guy 1: Well why would you spend so much money on those, you have to do all this work on them, and they're only an inch tall. Guy 2: Well think about this have you beaten Halo 2? Guy 1: Yeah Guy 2: And what do you have to show for it? Thousands of people have done the exact same thing, that game was expensive 2 but after a few times playing it it loses all value. This figure *holds up a customized painted figure* is one of a kind, no one else in the world has one quite like this.

[slakajuster]

my family refuses to look past anything that imnst purely real. heck they refuse to look past these IRON CHAINS of western civilisation... me and my stepdad plaine out hate eachother and are in screaming matches all day.. he is so very ignorant... and i am on good terms with my mom.. but when i try to talk to her about lding or exploreing my mind with psychadelics.. she gets all akward and dowenst wana hear about it... and i just recently moved to the middle of no-where. in which everyone is a flag worshiping redneck. i HATE IT HERE. noone understands me i have NO outlets socially.. and my inner thoughts are driving me insane. i hate this western world and sometimes regret bein brought into it without a choice... altho i cant change that. all well when i get older ill move to africa... lol.. but yeah i dont know just thought id comment. EVERYWHERE i look im being surpressed and shut down by these materialistic demonic racsist people... and my own family i cant rely on... any tips? i know... theres not much that can be said... thx all. by the way FUCK YOU BOB! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - newest piece

[Oneiro]

"Why is dreaming frowned upon?" Well.. if you mean LDing, there is a certain social and scientific stigma attached to it. Most people (non-LDers) will quietly think that you're nuts. Go tell your doctor what you do in your sleep (I communicate with aliens, DCs, I exist in an alternate "reality" etc. etc.) and he'll soon pack you off to the local psychiatrist, who in turn will most likely label you "schizophrenic". This has recently happened to an LDing friend of mine, and they sectioned the poor woman. Can you believe that? No matter what people say, these times that we live in are still quite unenlightened.

[Oneironaut Zero]

You know its funny because there's also an considerable group that gets most of its satisfaction from intangible things. Namely, video gamers. I play video games too, but you wont catch me yammering on about my gamer score or any such thing. Meanwhile these same people are slow to realize the value of certain sentimental material things. Reminds me of this old conversation about table top miniature games, the kind that cost a fair amount of money for figures you paint. Guy 1: Well why would you spend so much money on those, you have to do all this work on them, and they're only an inch tall. Guy 2: Well think about this have you beaten Halo 2? Guy 1: Yeah Guy 2: And what do you have to show for it? Thousands of people have done the exact same thing, that game was expensive 2 but after a few times playing it it loses all value. This figure *holds up a customized painted figure* is one of a kind, no one else in the world has one quite like this. That's true, although the same can't really be said for dreams - in that "thousands of people have done the exact same thing." Though there may be similarities, most of the experiences are absolutely different. I understand your analogy, though. However, both of those mind-frames are flawed (and I would assume that the materialist paradigm is the majority). What is important (IMHO) is recognizing the significance in each side - the material and the immaterial. If Bob had this kind of mind-frame, he wouldn't have taken the same stance with Jim trying to share a dream with him. Jim, however, could be the type of person that understands both sides, but would still want to share the dream with Bob. You may not yammer on about your high score to someone who doesn't care, but if you are one of the first to beat a game billed as the "hardest game in the world," and you are around a bunch of your friends who are also gamers, I'm sure you'd at least bring it up in conversation.

[antiflag]

Honestly, why do people frown upon dreaming so much? --- Jim: Hey Bob! I just had this really weird dream last night! Bob: *rolls eyes* Cool, Jim. Let's try and keep it to yourself. Jim: I really have to tell someone! It was weird! Kinda like it came out of a movie. Bob: Alrighty then, Jim, let's hear it. Jim: O.K., so I was at the park when this alien U.F.O flew out of the sky... Bob: *ignores Jim* Jim: And thats when it ended. Bob: That's great. Now we can get on with our lives in reality. Jim: Uh... yeah, I guess. Bob: Cool. Let's go out and get some lunch. Jim - but you know what, the funny thing is, I knew that I was dreaming the whole time... Bob: I thought we were done talking about that. Dreams are meaningless. MEANINGLESS. They're just fluids in your brain moving around at night! You never knew you were dreaming, it's all in your head. And if you did know you were dreaming, then you're probably doing witchcraft or something. Now let's go. Jim: O.K. You're right. Dreams are meaningless. Let's go. --- People say that dreams are meaningless. They assume anyone who lucid dreams is insane or is into witchcraft. But why do they think this way? Dreams are important! Health wise, for one. Also, dreams are included in many, many songs. Dreams have inspired people to paint famous paintings and make famous sculptures! Dreams are included in so many books and movies. They take us to places where we can escape from reality for a little while every night. Dreams are great! And let's not forget Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream they aren'y open minded about things

[superlox3]

I believe that people don't like dreaming because they see it differently than true "dreamers" (us). They see it as something to occupy themselves, something to enjoy while it lasts and then pass on; getting on with their normal lives. What they don't see is the potential that dreaming holds, in both understanding ourselves and bettering our lives. That is what we have found; that through dreams we can express ourselves in ways that even we didn't know existed. We have learned to use dreams to our advantage, and this is something which non-dreamers don't realize. They don't realize it even exists because nobody talks about it; and so they try to block it out, sticking to what they know. They try to be at the top of their own world, not seeing that there is another world that they have to look at. Of course, this isn't true with all non-dreamers, just the more shallow ones. I am sure that people who are open-minded will open up when talked to about dreaming, and will listen when people tell them about it. Then it is up to them whether they want to pay attention to it, but at least they are recognizing that it exists. To close off, a quote from Waking Life: Things have been tough lately for dreamers. They say dreaming is dead, no one does it anymore. It's not dead it's just that it's been forgotten, removed from our language. Nobody teaches it so nobody knows it exists. The dreamer is banished to obscurity. Well, I'm trying to change all that, and I hope you are too. By dreaming, every day. Dreaming with our hands and dreaming with our minds.

[Tsunami]

I have told quite a number of people about lucid dreaming now, some take it differently than others. As said above, people are not open minded enough. I have never been persistent on talking to people about dreaming though. I have told six people about dreaming, one says he is going to, but is not interested obviously, three others did not like the idea at all, but they did not seem to frown upon dreaming in anyway at all. Two tried lucid dreaming, one dropped it after about a week and the other is still going on now and appears to be a "natural" or a liar, from what I have heard. I would not say lucid dreaming is frowned upon, people bring up dreams when I am in group conversations all the time at my school, nobody there gets frowned upon.

[Stupidity]

It the obsession with whats real, what you can taste, hold and especially spend. we are a materialistic society, plain and simple, personal enlightenment has no profit or value to others. Your dreams can't effect others or have a concrete value so most people don't give a damn. Its basically a difference in values and I find that trying to change peoples values is way too much work. Oh and I would be careful throwing the E word around or the UE word.

[Xox]

Well us dreamers seem to have a different type of personality. Some people are just not the "dream" type. I've noticed this in friends, family, etc. Some people really just don't care for dreams. A lot of people seem to think I make too much of a "big deal" out of dreaming. "It's just dreaming, okay?" What can I say, too bad for them. And by the way, this should probably be in "General Dream Discussion."

[MadHatter17]

my family refuses to look past anything that imnst purely real. heck they refuse to look past these IRON CHAINS of western civilisation... me and my stepdad plaine out hate eachother and are in screaming matches all day.. he is so very ignorant... and i am on good terms with my mom.. but when i try to talk to her about lding or exploreing my mind with psychadelics.. she gets all akward and dowenst wana hear about it... and i just recently moved to the middle of no-where. in which everyone is a flag worshiping redneck. i HATE IT HERE. noone understands me i have NO outlets socially.. and my inner thoughts are driving me insane. i hate this western world and sometimes regret bein brought into it without a choice... altho i cant change that. all well when i get older ill move to africa... lol.. but yeah i dont know just thought id comment. EVERYWHERE i look im being surpressed and shut down by these materialistic demonic racsist people... and my own family i cant rely on... any tips? i know... theres not much that can be said... thx all. by the way FUCK YOU BOB! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - newest piece Wow that is absolutely awful you have my deepest sympathies. Let me just reassure you that only a tiny fraction of western civilization is quite like that. I hope you get a chance to move out of that area very soon. Find a nice liberal arts school somewhere. "Why is dreaming frowned upon?" Well.. if you mean LDing, there is a certain social and scientific stigma attached to it. Most people (non-LDers) will quietly think that you're nuts. Go tell your doctor what you do in your sleep (I communicate with aliens, DCs, I exist in an alternate "reality" etc. etc.) and he'll soon pack you off to the local psychiatrist, who in turn will most likely label you "schizophrenic". This has recently happened to an LDing friend of mine, and they sectioned the poor woman. Can you believe that? No matter what people say, these times that we live in are still quite unenlightened. Thats absurd, why on Earth would they do that?

[Oneiro]

Thats absurd, why on Earth would they do that? Well.. apparently she started questioning the psychiatrist's beliefs about the nature of "reality".. she told him about her LDing and how it was leading her to question the established ethos.. one thing led to another, and he sectioned her for 3 weeks.. during her stay, they diagnosed her as "schizophrenic". Now she's really in a mess.. she's lost her job, and her way. She even sometimes has doubts that they may be right in their diagnosis, as far as I can gather.

[Hiros]

Like everyone and their dog has already said, people are simply way too close minded. I have a friend that I want to talk about in regards to this. He is so incredibly closed minded that its ridiculous. I've told him about LDing and all he does is look at me funny, doesn't even respond, so I take the hint and stop talking. And its not just with dreaming, but anything your interested in that he isn't. For example, another friend and I were talking about how this guy is adamantly against Blu-ray now that its won the HD format war. He has an Xbox360 and was all for HD-DVD saying how he wanted to get the drive add-on for his 360. Now that Blu-ray has become the standard, he's against HD completely. He says DVD is good enough and always will be. Its astonishing how his mind can do a 180 like that. He'll go on and on about something he likes, be it a new video game, film, book, whatever (we're all geeks, and proud of it). But if you mention something you like he just trashes them without ever having experienced it. My point here is that its impossible to change his mind on anything, believe me I've tried, and whats ever worse is that a large portion of the worlds population thinks this way. We can yell about how awesome dreaming can be until your blue in the face, but they won't listen.

[hootman]

When I first heard of LDing, I thought it was the coolest thing ever, and then did a research project. The teacher gave me a horrible grade because we were supposed to do it on something "real"

[LordSturm]

Because, unlike reality, dreaming is not a collective experience, it is an entirely personal experience. Lucid dreaming is exploiting that very factor, since dreaming is an entirely personal experience, you have the potential to make it whatever you want. Noone plays the God figure in reality, because there must be a balance. But you can play God all you like in your dreams. Put it this way, the dream chars know about real people, infact most of them resemble real people. However real people want nothing to do with dream chars, let alone their dream counterparts. Never wake from an awesome dream, and say "Damn, it was only a dream." say to yourself, "that was one freaking awesome dream," and have a positive day.

[unseen wombat]

I've only told one person about LD'ing, and only half-heartedly. I asked if when he dreamed, if he knew he was dreaming. He said no, and I told him I was looking at these techniques to make yourself aware while still in the dream so you can do all kinds of cool things. He said I was scaring him. Maybe it's the (sometimes) unreal nature of dreams and the fact that people for so long have attached mystical significance to them that people think there's something more than just random thoughts in your own brain. I once also asked my wife, just out of curiosity, if she knew she was dreaming while she was dreaming. She said no, and that actually, she tries to forget her dreams. She doesn't like it when she remembers dreams because that means she didn't sleep deeply enough. She apparently thinks it's unhealthy to remember dreams. I didn't push the issue. For me, the first time I ever heard of lucid dreaming, I was looking at make.com and saw that DIY lucid dreaming mask. I was like, "WTF is that? Oh well, what else is there that's more interesting?" Then when I came back to it after reading about actual SP and lucid dreams on 4chan's /x/, I found out it's possibly the most awesome thing a person can ever do. They're talking on the news about virtual reality machines that will cost tens of thousands of dollars that might or might not actually be built who-knows-when in the future. They supposedly promise they will let you experience flying and sexual things as though you were actually there. How awesome is it that we have that machine already in our own heads. For free! (Well, plus the cost of some vitamins and Alzheimer's medicine. )

[slakajuster]

Wow that is absolutely awful you have my deepest sympathies. Let me just reassure you that only a tiny fraction of western civilization is quite like that. I hope you get a chance to move out of that area very soon. Find a nice liberal arts school somewhere. Thats absurd, why on Earth would they do that? thanks man ... lol.. i know that wont help much. but its nice to know that someone knopws and cares.. i love this site

[MadHatter17]

Well.. apparently she started questioning the psychiatrist's beliefs about the nature of "reality".. she told him about her LDing and how it was leading her to question the established ethos.. one thing led to another, and he sectioned her for 3 weeks.. during her stay, they diagnosed her as "schizophrenic". Now she's really in a mess.. she's lost her job, and her way. She even sometimes has doubts that they may be right in their diagnosis, as far as I can gather. Thats terrible. That psychiatrist must be totally ignorant of basic philosophy. The only way questioning the nature of reality like that could be a problem is if you immediately started acting on it.

[Oneiro]

Thats terrible. That psychiatrist must be totally ignorant of basic philosophy. The only way questioning the nature of reality like that could be a problem is if you immediately started acting on it. Well.. I don't know the full details, but maybe she had started acting on it. It wouldn't surprise me if psychiatrists these days are ignorant of basic philosophy. Over here, at least, a psychiatrist is a medically-qualified professional, licensed to prescribe drugs.. and that's all they do. Counselling is no longer part of their protocol, and hasn't been for at least 15 years. It is the psychologists and social workers who perform the counselling side of the treatment, and they, at least, do seem to have some grounding in philosophy, Freud and Jung etc etc being required reading during their studies. One thing's for sure: my friend is devastated by the whole sorry episode, and now has severe depression to contend with as well. I've tried talking to her on several occasions, but she is really quiet and unforthcoming. It's a big worry.

[MadHatter17]

Well to clarify, when I said if a person starts to act on the philosophy. I meant in like a harmful way such as considering suicide or taking lots of drugs to spend more time dreaming/taking up unusually long amounts of time just sleeping trying to have an LD. However I'd consider acting on the philosophy by experimenting with sharing dreams or trying to have an OBE through a lucid dream would be totally harmless. Unfortunately I could imagine a burnout hack of a psychiatrist thinking someone's crazy for taking part in the harmless activities as well. Sounds like the Psychiatrist should be sued for malpractice. Their job is to treat mental illness, not cause it. I'm sorry to hear about this and I hope it all works out for you and your friend in the end.

[kaeraz]

This subject hits close to home. I told my brother about lucid dreaming just the other night. We're really close and I respect him and his opinions immensely. Only problem is, my brother is a big skeptic. I mean, I'm a skeptic, but this guy isn't convinced that gravity is going to work from second to second if you know what I mean. Anyway, I told him about how I was experimenting with being conscious in my dreams and he was like, "Are you sure you aren't just concentrating on the hits and not the misses?" And I'm like, "Dude, I've run into a whole mess of misses my whole life! That's what regular dreams are!" Then I explained to him that since I started getting seriously into this about a month ago, I've had three lucid dreams. I mean, how do you explain that away?? He just started joking about how I'd be rambling on about out of body experiences next - and it make me think that he was inadvertently equating the two, which kinda pissed me off. I mean, lucid dreaming has been proven and studied. I know that OBEs cannot be proven and are merely personal accounts like religious experiences. It's hard because I love lucid dreaming and everything you can accomplish from it, but I'm also a skeptical atheist. I don't like telling this to my brother or my other skeptics friends and have them regard it as something mysterious and mystical. Ya know?