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    1. #1
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      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      So are you coming from a spiritual perspective?
      You believe in the soul?
      Or are you considering consciousness to me more like a wave that the mind picks up?
      I don't think that makes much of a difference, it's just different words.

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      Quote Originally Posted by gigaschatten View Post
      I don't think that makes much of a difference, it's just different words.
      Not really, that's not how i meant it anyway.

      You could hold the concept of the Christian idea of soul, as an individual entity created by god but veyr much seperate.

      Or it could be something more like the Hindu idea where each soul actually is an aspect of god itself, just expressed in a different way (which fits the radio analogy)

      Of course then there are all the questions like, if there is a soul, what is it made of, how does it work?
      Why do we need brains at all (epecially if we can astral travel without one)

      By the way, i'm not being confrontational, I have a very open mind about all these things, so i like to push people to explain themselves fully, because i'd like to be convinced.

      I argue not to destroy someone elses beliefs, I do it in the same way I thouroughly check something before I buy it. I want to make sure it's solid and isn't going to break under scrutiny before i "buy" it.

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      Frankly, I have no idea who or what created consciousness/spirit/soul - if it was created at all. The concept of a consciousness/spirit/soul that exists independently from the body but can use a body/bodies as a vehicle by using its control center(s), which seems to be the brain, is simply a lot more reasonable than those imagination theories.

      I've been to several realities - actually I just returned an hour ago from a short journey - and experienced things I could never have visualized, even if I had all the time in the world. Most people can't imagine peeling a peanut clearly if their grandmother's life depends on it. But even if, imagination may be nothing but a reflection of other realities we are able to access.

      What is matter? Why does it have weight? Why does it even seem firm to us? Why does light not shine through it? Ask a physicist to answer that. Our material world is an illusion. Can the consciousness/spirit/soul be an illusion too?

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      Fabulous idea! I do understand what gigaschatten is saying about physical verses non-physical, but then.... who would ever have believed the Internet was possible??

      I remember people laughing when I said I wished I could play games on my cell phone.... and then.... like magic.... the technology eventually appeared. I wouldn't be surprised if Elkfazer's idea of recording dreams becomes a reality in ... well, possibly not that long from now.

      xxx

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      Quote Originally Posted by gigaschatten View Post
      Frankly, I have no idea who or what created consciousness/spirit/soul - if it was created at all. The concept of a consciousness/spirit/soul that exists independently from the body but can use a body/bodies as a vehicle by using its control center(s), which seems to be the brain, is simply a lot more reasonable than those imagination theories.

      I've been to several realities - actually I just returned an hour ago from a short journey - and experienced things I could never have visualized, even if I had all the time in the world. Most people can't imagine peeling a peanut clearly if their grandmother's life depends on it. But even if, imagination may be nothing but a reflection of other realities we are able to access.

      What is matter? Why does it have weight? Why does it even seem firm to us? Why does light not shine through it? Ask a physicist to answer that. Our material world is an illusion. Can the consciousness/spirit/soul be an illusion too?
      There are a few problems I have with that way of looking at things.
      (don't take this as a personal attack, it's just the reasons I find it hard to agree)

      If we are a spiritual being, why have bodies at all?
      Also are humans the only animals with spirits/souls?
      If not, at which point down the line does the soul spirit stop? the mouse? the snail? the ameoba?
      Did the sould evolve alongside the body?
      Also if souls are independent of body/mind... then shouldnt it be possible for a human soul to enter an animals body and demonstrate its intelligence that way?

      I agree that what is "physical" is a very odd concept. I dont quite see how that lends itself to the idea that a soul/consciousness is a seperate entity though. Our material world isnt really an illusion, just the idea of it being solid is just our way of perciving it based on the scale that we are in relation to atoms. To say it is an illusion begs the question "In comparison to what?"


      I find myself more comfortable with the buddhist concept of self and soul... that being that there isn't one and it's just an illusion.

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      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      There are a few problems I have with that way of looking at things.
      (don't take this as a personal attack, it's just the reasons I find it hard to agree)

      If we are a spiritual being, why have bodies at all?
      What body? You're thinking in terms of firm matter. There is none, it's an illusion.

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      Also are humans the only animals with spirits/souls?
      I don't know, but I don't think so.

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      If not, at which point down the line does the soul spirit stop? the mouse? the snail? the ameoba?
      I don't know, but I guess it never stops. Is a quantum particle conscious?

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      Did the sould evolve alongside the body?
      What body? Maybe the body is an expression of consciousness.

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      Also if souls are independent of body/mind... then shouldnt it be possible for a human soul to enter an animals body and demonstrate its intelligence that way?
      Define better. Maybe it does. Maybe also in plants or any other matter/energy structure. I don't know.

      You didn't expect me to have any objective answers, did you?

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      I agree that what is "physical" is a very odd concept. I dont quite see how that lends itself to the idea that a soul/consciousness is a seperate entity though. Our material world isnt really an illusion, just the idea of it being solid is just our way of perciving it based on the scale that we are in relation to atoms. To say it is an illusion begs the question "In comparison to what?"
      In comparison to something that is as it seems. If that exists is negligible for comparison.

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      I find myself more comfortable with the buddhist concept of self and soul... that being that there isn't one and it's just an illusion.
      I don't like the word "soul". It's been used and abused too much by christianity.

      You're misunderstanding that aspect of buddhism though. It's the ego that is an illusion, not the one consciousness we are all part of - according to buddhism. It is the ego that separates you.

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      Quote Originally Posted by gigaschatten View Post
      You're misunderstanding that aspect of buddhism though. It's the ego that is an illusion, not the one consciousness we are all part of - according to buddhism. It is the ego that separates you.
      Depends on the school of buddhism, im more with the original Theravadin way of looking at things. I think many of the other schools have taken on a good deal of Hinduism which has the concept of brahman and atman,which sounds more like what you are refering to.

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      I think recording the audio from the dreams would be a first and easier step. Ignoring L/R audio, recording audio would be a linear line of data. Recording visual would be a 2D line of data, which is lot more memory.

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      spaceexplorer:
      There are a few problems I have with that way of looking at things.
      (don't take this as a personal attack, it's just the reasons I find it hard to agree)

      If we are a spiritual being, why have bodies at all?
      Also are humans the only animals with spirits/souls?
      If not, at which point down the line does the soul spirit stop? the mouse? the snail? the ameoba?
      Did the sould evolve alongside the body?
      Also if souls are independent of body/mind... then shouldnt it be possible for a human soul to enter an animals body and demonstrate its intelligence that way?

      I agree that what is "physical" is a very odd concept. I dont quite see how that lends itself to the idea that a soul/consciousness is a seperate entity though. Our material world isnt really an illusion, just the idea of it being solid is just our way of perciving it based on the scale that we are in relation to atoms. To say it is an illusion begs the question "In comparison to what?"


      I find myself more comfortable with the buddhist concept of self and soul... that being that there isn't one and it's just an illusion.
      Hi Spaceexplorer

      Interesting post. What makes the most sense to me is this:

      Think about why some people go camping... for the experience of "roughing it" - doing without modern conveniences. Imagine the Ultimate Virtual Reality Game - where, not only do you get to go camping and experience what it's like to have the challenge of having to hunt and fish for food, make a fire from scratch etc.... but imagine that there is an option to take some sort of medication that temporarily erases your memory of who you really are, and where you really come from - so that, while you're in that game, you believe that's all there is. You really believe that you are living that reality - you can't even remember that modern conveniences exist, never mind that you usually have access to them.

      So, you play the game for real - because it feels real, and you've forgotten that it's not. And so you get the full, authentic experience, until you log out.

      The Ultimate Virtual Reality Game.

      xxx

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by illusions View Post
      spaceexplorer:

      Hi Spaceexplorer

      Interesting post. What makes the most sense to me is this:

      Think about why some people go camping... for the experience of "roughing it" - doing without modern conveniences. Imagine the Ultimate Virtual Reality Game - where, not only do you get to go camping and experience what it's like to have the challenge of having to hunt and fish for food, make a fire from scratch etc.... but imagine that there is an option to take some sort of medication that temporarily erases your memory of who you really are, and where you really come from - so that, while you're in that game, you believe that's all there is. You really believe that you are living that reality - you can't even remember that modern conveniences exist, never mind that you usually have access to them.

      So, you play the game for real - because it feels real, and you've forgotten that it's not. And so you get the full, authentic experience, until you log out.

      The Ultimate Virtual Reality Game.

      xxx
      Yes I believe something similar. It's not really provable or not, so it just remains a nice thought to play with in those moments when you can think about these things.
      God being bored with being god and all powerful, so creates a labyrinth of illusion out of himself, splintering himself into infitinte variations. All of which believe themselves to be seperate and mortal. All slowly moving to discovering the truth of what they truely are... so that one day, they will appreciate the joy of the truth.
      In fact i've always thought that dreams are a microcosm of this whole principle.


      I dont really like to hold any set belief though. I really rather just observe the universe around me and update my views as i grow. One of the reasons I play devils advocate alot, making someone prove thier belief, shows the flaws in it, and gives me more information to either reject or accept it as part of my world view

      by the way, wherein the UK are you based? im down in the southwest.

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Venomblood View Post
      Recording visual would be a 2D line of data, which is lot more memory.
      You dream in 2D?

    12. #12
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      2D or not 2D? That is the question! Sorry, couldn't resist

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