Thread: Is it possible to enter an LD outside of a REM cycle?

Originally Posted by moonshine

That seems a bit woolly to me thor. That theory would apply only if NREM and REM dreams were similar.

For what I've read they are not. NREM dreams have clearly been described, by scientists, as thoughtlike or daydreaming.
Which in my mind is a more credible reason for not needing SP during NREM sleep.

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.)

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

Originally Posted by Thor

REM dreams are generally more vivid, and NREM dreams are generally more thoughtlike, so if you have a vivid dream it's most likely a REM dream, and if you have a thoughtlike dream it's most likely an NREM dream. However, a significant proportion of REM dreams are thoughtlike, and a significant proportion of NREM dreams are vivid. Yet, people do not act out vivid NREM dreams. (Well, they do in sleepwalking and night terrors, but those are anomalous anyway.

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

Originally Posted by Thor

I think asking why we have atonia only in REM sleep is the wrong question. In my opinion a more interesting question is: what is it about REM sleep that causes the brain to transmit nerve impulses to make the limbs move, thereby necessiating REM atonia?

The interesting answer is this: the fact that in REM you are inhabiting a 3D virtual world and so moving through it. Atonia stops your dream movements translating to real life.

Originally Posted by Thor

As an aside, I don't understand why you say "thoughtlike or daydreaming", because daydreaming is very immersive and quite the oppsite of thoughtlike.

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not really. Daydreaming is thinking. You can visualise whilst daydreaming, and I'm sure you can even visualise a model of yourself within daydreams.
But you do not inhabit the day dreams. Which in my mind is the critical difference.

As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined. And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so). The crucial difference is that dreams are hallucinated, that is, perceived as real, whereas in daydreams you are aware that it's only your imagination.

Originally Posted by Thor

As far as I can understand, daydreaming is no more thinking than dreaming is. Daydreaming is perception, though it is imagined.

Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

Originally Posted by Thor

And I don't know about you, but I certainly inhabit my daydreams as much as I inhabit my dreams (maybe even more so).

I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Daydreaming is simply visualisation. Visualisation is still just a form of thought.

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.

I don't think you're being honest with yourself Thor.
Imagining you're walking down the street in a day dream is simply not the same as actually experiencing yourself walk down a street in a dream scene.

Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

Originally Posted by Thor

No, daydreaming can involve any and all of your senses. And if you think visualization is just a form of thought, then you could say the same thing about seeing.



Of course it's not the same. The difference is that the dream is perceived as real, while the daydream isn't. But to me there is no difference in the number of senses involved, or the level of detail. A thought, as I think of it, is fundamentally different and entirely verbal. On the other hand you can of course have thoughts while being in a dream or a daydream.

I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on.

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1793

Although some superficial dreams occur during NREM sleep, most real dreams occur during the REM stage of the sleep cycle. There are marked differences between NREM dreams and REM dreams. NREM dreams tend to be anchored in reality and experienced as a semiconscious state of serenity. REM dreams are markedly "bizarre", lacking common sense, logic and often characterized by quick transitions in plot and setting. Often, when a person is awakened from REM sleep, they remember vividly the events of their dreams.

Originally Posted by moonshine

I smell a semantic nit-picking coming on.

I have absolutely no idea how you don't consider imagination to be a thought process.

Imagination is a "thought process" in the sense that it is a cognitive activity. But when researchers say that NREM dreams are often "thought-like" I don't think they include any and all cognitive activity, otherwise describing dreams as thought-like would be pointless. Rather, the whole point was to distinguish between thought dreams and sensory dreams.

To clarify: imagining something whilst awake whether it involves sight, sound touch, smell or all of the above (i.e. daydreaming) and
actually dreaming of the experience are fundamentally quite different.

The perception of something actually being real is indeed the crucial difference. Which may be why Sleep Paralysis generally takes place during REM sleep.

I agree, except for the last sentence, which does not follow logically.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Not convinced by that Thor. Most of what I've read indicates that NREM and REM dreams are quite different.

Well, they are statistically different, but even the most conservative researchers acknowledge that 5-10% of all NREM dream reports are indistinguishable from REM dream reports by any criterion.