How can people's ideas exist outside their heads?

[Idolfan]

This is driving me absolutely and chronically literally absolutely insane. It doesn't make any sense. These 'realms' I hear people talking about are all things based on our own thoughts and the labels we attach to things. There can be no other explaination for their existence unless someone wants to tell me that they evolved from microbes like we did and somehow ended up totally humanoid like us. They are created by our minds! But the thing is is that it's not frigging possible. I've done all the maths I possibly can, it makes NO SENSE. It's the most nonsensical hypothesis in the whole world. Everyone's subjectivity is unique to their own mind, so how is it that if enough people look at a door it will start to take on a seperate existence? How come people can just magically have some mutual dream or telepathic experience? Is there like a transmitter or something? Is there anything close to an explaination for this? I'm paranoid as fuck.

[maxihaus]

Reality is subjective. Also, just because something does not seem logical does not mean it is not real. I personally believe that dreams are more real than what we call "reality" or at least more realistic if you accept the fact that everything is energy. Waking up, brushing your teeth, eating breakfast, going to work from 8 to 5, that's a Matrix we've been forced to live in through the help of wide screen TVs, the media, and the Word. I suggest you practice some right brain activity such as using the opposite hand for brushing your teeth, opening doors, eating, etc. as well as drawing, or even doodling, trying to play an instrument, etc. Let your logical hemisphere rest for awhile and the answers will start coming to you. Remember that once you put something into words, it is no longer truth. Follow the Silence.

[Idolfan]

What about the large portion of reality that is objective then? It doesn't make sense that subjective ideas can in of themselves control the objective to any degree.

[Corello]

Why would objective possibly influence subjective then? I haven't found a one sided phenomenon like that in my studies. Also, it doesn't really matter how hard you try to solve it if your theorical, hipothetical range doesn't support it. All you have to do is to see what else you can take in consideration, not by judgement, but by neutral observation. Nature follows a pattern you know, an organic one. It's mutable and fluid, but it has it's basic form. It's not linear and calculable by conventional rational methods in it's essence, it's holistic. Even if everyone is unique to a degree of psyche, fear, sadness, happindess, despair, hope, love, they're all the same to mentally healthy humans. By different reasons and circunstances of course, but there are things all living beings share.

[Corello]

Merry Christmas, by the way.

[Ladon]

Bah, this stuff just goes way too deep. There's lots of crazy stuff possible... We could be living in The Matrix and we wouldn't know for instance... There could be a creature that alters your memory when you finally found out that these thought can be manifested. It would alter your memory so that you fail to see the logic again. Unlikely... but still quite possible. There's no way to proove that :p There's no explanation, it's your choice if you wanna believe it or not. But don't be narrowminded and think it's not possible because it just doesn't fit in your current belief system (and thus your logic and reasoning). So... Yup, it doesn't make sense, yet it's possible I guess :p If you're looking for an explanation that shows you it DOES make sense, well... don't we all?

[CanceledCzech]

Reality is subjective. What is 'reality'? Remember that once you put something into words, it is no longer truth. Follow the Silence. This ^ Edit: Also, what are thoughts? Information, perhaps? If so, information exists outside your head all the time. On paper, on cellphones, on iPods, on computers, etc. (Honestly, though, I have no idea what thoughts are. That's just a wager)

[U-mos]

I'm not really sure what you are getting at. I'm guessing you are racking your brain for the reason why the higher realms are very "hominid" like, am I correct? at any rate, its much easier to understand if you drop all previous assumptions. One of the most common assumptions I run across is that this physical plain, that we live on, came first. It's quite the nonsensical assumption. You'll have to explain your problem a little better before anyone can answer your question.

[owlj]

I don't understand how the mundane appears mundane. It's incredibly miraculous. From "microbes" miraculously sprang LIFE?! And this is the mundane explanation? NO WAY! First there was the word... and the word was with God... and the word was God. LOL... to the untrained eye, I look religious. Hehe... to many eyes I appear Christian... but I'm not Just open to the possibility. Don't worry about 'how and why' just believe that it is. We believe in all sorts of crazy and invisable things (like the mind). How does the mind work? Not the brain, but the mind? Just let go and let be, love. Wonders are hidden right in front of our open and closed eyelids. Sometimes eyes that appear closed are open and open are really closed. Let go and let be~

[maxihaus]

First there was the word... and the word was with God... and the word was God. Celestite [=

[trev]

What is 'reality'? well, there's the general human belief that reality is comprised of our 'physical world' -- that is, the realm of existence that we physically experience daily that includes the Earth, the universe, etc, which we actively distinguish from realms such as the dream world. the realm of existence that contains events that, once observed, are generally easily verifiable by any sane being as having occurred a specific way, once a framework for explaining the human mind's perception has been understood by all parties involved (i.e. language, basic intuitions of physics, etc) then there's the conventional belief that reality is simply comprised of the signals of perception we receive in our brains, which indicates that dreams are just as much 'reality' as the 'general reality' posited above. regarding the original question.. i would tend to side with the OP. with the power and universality of logic and math (from which 'science', or whatever you want to name the force that seems to doubt such paranormal realms or whatever the OP is referring to, is based on), i find it hard to believe that anything can escape their grasp. imagine, for example, a level/realm of existence in which logic and mathematics don't exist; that is, they would not be valid, even as a thought. the idea that True is not False, that 1 is not 0, for example, wouldn't necessarily be true in such a realm. i can't fathom any such realm, although i'm open to its existence, i suppose. Edit: Also, what are thoughts? Information, perhaps? If so, information exists outside your head all the time. On paper, on cellphones, on iPods, on computers, etc. (Honestly, though, I have no idea what thoughts are. That's just a wager) the standpoint that i have on this is the 'neurobiological' one i guess. the mind as i see it is an incredibly complex, expansive, abstracted, and dense network of physically quantized pieces of data, much like a computer, called neurons, electrical impulses, or whatever. so, thoughts are just some sort of abstract manifestation within this complex, dynamic network -- a phenomenon that occurs strictly within the physical confines of the brain, in my opinion. the mind, i guess, is in essence a self-aware, self-perpetuating system that on the lowest level must be represented, like i said before, by some identifiable currency (electricity/neurons). books have been written on exactly what aspect of the mind makes it self-aware (able to move out of itself as a system and look inside) what a ridiculous ramble, mostly off-topic. whatever, i felt like talking about this stuff

[owlj]

I would be interested to know which books you're referring to? The mind is not considered the same thing as the brain by behavioral scientists. I find it incredible to believe that original thought originates in the brain. So, actually every idea as basically 'fated' at birth. Inventions and such should really not be credited to anything more than biology then. So, someone with the correct physical structures at birth and right environmental stimuli will create certain things. That things such as career choice, food preference, etc... is just really biological. I dunno... I used to believe so strongly in nurture over nature and now 'nature' just encompasses so much more for me. Again, quantum physics may have something to offer if you are truly a 'scientific' type of person interested in the nature of reality. When something is behaving as a wave, it is not physical but can be manifested as something physical. Our bodies and our minds are electric which means that it is pretty likely that we could be sensitive to one another's physical/ mental/ psychic energy. There is not such a definite boundary as you would like to believe. We are spiritual creatures but we are having a physical experience. That which we are, is manifested EVERY MOMENT!!! By the concepts of physics NOTHING IS SOLID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is so incredible. Everything is comprised of atoms that are constantly moving and changing. In fact, when observed it appears that these atoms are behaving as if they have a conscious awareness... OR that the thing that controls thier movement does. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc (muahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO0ki...1&feature=fvwp http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...0/phy00713.htm You have hit on one of the most confusing things in quantum mechanics. When you are measuring properties of an electron, the electron behaves as a particle. It has standard electron mass and other standard properties. This only holds at the instant you do the measurement. The more time a particle spends without being measured, the more random the electron becomes. If you measure which hole the electron passes through, then it will only pass through one of the holes. If you do not measure which hole, then it will pass through both holes as a wave. This fact is known by measuring the angle of the electron's motion after passing through. I do not think any person truly understands why this happens. Richard Feynman, perhaps the greatest quantum physicists, once said that anyone who claims to understand quantum physics must be telling a lie. Accept the fact that nothing tiny is completely a particle or completely a wave. Every individual particle or wave has both properties. A photon of light tends more toward wave properties. An electron tends more toward particle properties. Still, both are somewhere between particle and wave. Dr. Ken Mellendorf Physics Professor Illinois Central College ================================================== === The world is SOOOO full of wonders. "And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know..." What is matter? Never mind. What is the mind? It doesn't matter.

[trev]

check out 'Gödel, Escher, Bach' (book) you're taking the perspective that everything in a system can be determined from full knowledge of its initial conditions (i.e. given a brain and a specific series of stimuli, you can predict exactly what the brain will look like) - this was a belief of Newton i think, and i believe it has been refuted in some way by quantum mechanics (i don't claim to be an expert though) do you not think you would be able to make an original choice right now? between, say, grasping one of two possible objects on the desk/table beside you? the idea you proposed concerning the electrical nature of our body and mind and their sensitivity to outside energy doesn't seem unlikely to me. is there any evidence to support such a model?

[owlj]

^Yep. I'll have to find it though. I have personally had too many experiences to shrug off. I am an intelligent, educated person and not stuck in 'la la land'. I am not psychotic or delusional so the only other explanation is that the experiences are real. How they occur is interesting but I don't claim to know for sure. I'm also a spiritual person so I am very open to that part of the equation. I was attempting by the first part of my post to show why this does not appear so to me. Why it appears that the mind is much more than just 'the brain' (well, and we do not consider them the same). Consciousness is not necessarily comprised solely of physical properties. Although certain brainwaves are more prevalent in certain states of consciousness... this only measures a physical property... it doesn't explain anything at all about the potential of the state itself. We know that we can talk people into certain states of consciousness (such as trance states, etc). We know that we can effect physical conditions with suggestions. We make choices about what suggestions we give ourselves and those suggestions create the way that we perceive reality AND they help to actually FORM our PHYSICAL reality. We can effect body temperature, chemistry, perception of pain, and actual physical, molecular changes can occur. It looks like an interesting book. I have a degree in psychology and working on another one. As far as I know, all there is to the storage of knowledge is theory. Nobody truly understands how this is done. And the retrieval of memories uses so many different areas of the brain, it is really not understood either. If you believe that the mind is completely comprised of physical substance of the brain then why could you not determine everything that is possible of the mind knowing only the genetic structure and the environment? I do not believe the mind is physical. Just curious if you watched the entire Dr. Quantum video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvAl...eature=related Maybe the mind 'is' sort of physical 'in a way' The nature of reality is that it is both physical (particles) and non-physical (waves)... what 'makes' it? What determines the direction? Some of it is known and some is not. Maybe by observing, we are focusing an attempt... a specific reality. I don't know 'why' we can have psychic connections and shared dreams. I just know that we can.

[Singularity125]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. I would direct you to this thread though. I've watched some of the videos presented there, and find them enlightening. The ones I've watched mostly involve scientists or physicists that, through personal experience or even experiments, have come to believe in some sort of nonphysical reality. It's really an eye-opener. I'd especially recommend the "My Big TOE" one. The guy being interviewed explains how they got as close as is possible to scientifically proving OBEs.