disturbing thought... from a newb

[Frerich]

okayokayokay... this lucid dreaming thing seems pretty cool, I got a clipboard, pen, and light at my bedside. I have a countdown alarmclock for that REM timing thing I might try later.. BUT as I was reading about the whole "how do you know you're not dreaming right now" thing, I started thinking... How do lucid dreamers know that their experience is genuinely "Lucid", and not just a dream OF THEM LUCID DREAMING, with only the illusion of control! We have dreams of our desires, like flying, so why not this? Ex: *wakes up from non-lucid dream* "Oh that was so cool!! I was flying around and arguing to transformers about how WTC 7 went down because of falling derbies, and then I realized it was a dream and I became in control and me and the transformers all battled and I won because I shot toasters at them through my hands and the transformers went in the toasters and turned into toast...omg that was so cool" I was hoping some hardcore luciders could shed some light on the subject before I get into it. How do you know it isn't an illusion? Edit: I just thought of another point. If anyone says you know it's genuine because you can walk up when you start to become lucid, remember that almost anyone wakes up from a scary dream when their heart rate goes way up, and dreaming about being in control of a dream and having endless choices would sure get my heartrate up... the more I think about it, the scarier it gets... Edit: ...! or is the illusion of control the entire point OF lucid dreaming!! AHH

[Mrs. Jones]

i'm no expert but to put it vaguely, you'll know it when you have one. you'll have this really strong empowered feeling. it's not far from euphoric, actually. i'm not 100% on this but i think every lucid dream is accompanied by this sort of feeling.

[Frerich]

i'm no expert but to put it vaguely, you'll know it when you have one. you'll have this really strong empowered feeling. it's not far from euphoric, actually. like... flying?

[Mrs. Jones]

like... flying? flying might be something that notifies you that you're dreaming. you know how, in dreams, even the impossible seems normal? and so you don't take any notice of it? if, somehow, while you're dreaming, you're able to work out that flying is impossible, "and yet i'm flying anyway!", you might realize that you're dreaming. once this happens, you might experience that euphoric awareness i mentioned. it's more like an emotion, not like flying. so: flying- dream indicator, physical euphoria- lucidity indicator, emotional. hope this helps. tho experts might say i'm completely wrong.

[Sandform]

I never felt euphoric when lucid. There are dreams where you will be in control without ever actually thinking that your asleep, which when you wake up you may think oh well I was lucid, when really you were only dreaming you were lucid. In dreams like this you will have to really inspect your dream to see if you ever had the thought "this is a dream", or just the innate feelign it wasn't reality. The definition of being lucid is being concsiously unconcsious. Simple put, even if you do not have control, but you realize that the scene you are in is a dream, then you are lucid. You don't have to have godly powers to be lucid, and you don't have to be lucid to have godly powers. It sure does help though.

[Mrs. Jones]

i guess that's the technical definition of lucid, but i think part of the magic of lucid dreams is that feeling that even something plain is extremely fascinating, like feeling completely empowered, even if you aren't. i've had dreams where i was the technical definition of lucid. i thought the specific words, "i'm dreaming". but i didn't click. no feeling. so i didn't feel lucid. there must be some kind of feeling for you, right? it might not be the same as mine, but i'm curious as to what allure there is to you in lucid dreaming if there's no feeling at all. i think you're saying you're a spectator in your dreams. but still you are able to behold something without taking it for granted, right? that's what i mean by feeling. appreciating everything. everything so much more than it would seem in reality. sorry if i seem pretentious. all my assumptions are questions.

[Sandform]

Um, well I kindof just like doing stuff in my dreams. Its interesting to do stuff other people don't do. I don't know that my dreams have ever made me feel happy or euphoric or whatever. However, when I am able to change the world around me, simply because I know that it is my world, and that I am the one creating all of it, I am a bit awed. as for my incentive to dream, I enjoy speaking to my DC's and seeing what they have to say to me. I say that I don't feel euphoric, because a lucid dream to me simply feels like reality. Everything is the same as waking life. The only difference is I know its not real.

[archdreamer]

How do you know [being in control] isn't an illusion? But, of course, if you can apply that to memories of lucid dreams, there's no reason you can't apply that to waking memories too. You cant' really know for sure, I suppose.

[Mrs. Jones]

what's a DC? dream character? what's your definition of "in control", sandform/

[Bonsay]

You'll see the diference between a lucid and a non-lucid. Also dreaming about lucidity is technically impossible. As others said, how dou you know that you won't wake up right now and laugh "the dogs had 4 legs, lol!". See my point?

[dodobird]

Dreams are always illusions, lucid or not. The beauty of lucid dreaming in contrast to normal dreaming is that your level of consciousness and awareness is much higher. You don't just play along the circumstances of the dream, but you stop and think, look around yourself, act by your own volition. Even if you don't have any control over your surroundings, and even if you don't manage to have control over your own body, you have control over your mind, and this causes the dream experience to be amazing.

[FreeOne]

the definition of lucid dreaming is "dreaming while knowing you are dreaming" so as bonsey said, its impossible to have a dream that you were lucid dreaming. If you are dreaming, and you know that you are dreaming, then its a lucid dream. It is possible to be dreaming that you are dreaming, and be lucid dreaming in that. (if that didnt confuse you enough :p ) I havent done that though. If you havent had a lucid dream, its hard to imagine what it will feel like. Being in a lucid dream is as real as you living right now. It would feel exactly the same. However if your recall is teerrible, or you lose lucidity, then you might remember your lucid dream like a normal dream, and that is what confuses some newbies about the "dreaming of lucid dreaming" thing. so make sure you have really good recall!

[Frerich]

I'm still not convinced. I didn't write in my dream journal, but I did recall a dream last night... of me writing in my dream journal and going back to sleep... lol

[Lunalight]

Well, so you're saying how do you know that the feeling of control isn't an illusion? Hrm. It seems like you could say the same about the real world. Does free will actually exist? But that's a conversation for another time. I've had a dream-about-dreaming and I was lucid within the dream within a dream. IF that makes sense. I'd say that one was an illusion, because I thought I was awake in the dream when I woke up from the lucid. Ack, hard to explain. But as dodobird said, all dreams are illusions, because you are really asleep in bed. I think you need a lucid to understand the feeling. Freefire, your avatar distracted me for about ten minutes, lol.

[FreeOne]

Freefire, your avatar distracted me for about ten minutes, lol. lol sorry but that is what i was saying, you can be dreaming that you are dreaming and have that be a lucid dream. i never thought i would meat someone who actually has done it. I'm still not convinced. I didn't write in my dream journal, but I did recall a dream last night... of me writing in my dream journal and going back to sleep... lol i dont get how you are unconvinced. lucidity is somthing completly different from writing in a dream journal. you have to be consious aware for lucidity. thats what lucidity means actually. Now that i think about it lol. how can lucid dreaming be an illusion of you being consiously aware? Its impossible.

[SilverZero]

Just to play devil's advocate, we can't know that we are, in fact, consciously aware in our dreams any more than we can know that we are consciously aware of our waking lives. Right now, this could be an illusion of our minds. We could be dreaming right now, and just thinking we are in control when, really, it's all an illusion. The only thing we can be sure of is that our minds are working, whether in control or not. Just ask Descartes. But, more practically (to me), lucid dreams "feel" a certain way. You know you're dreaming, and you know you're in control. Technically, it could be an illusion, but if you wake up and say, "wow, I was consciously aware in that dream, and I took control of it," does it make a difference if it was just an illusion? I'm not saying it is an illusion, I'm just posing an argument.

[FreeOne]

Just to play devil's advocate, we can't know that we are, in fact, consciously aware in our dreams any more than we can know that we are consciously aware of our waking lives. Right now, this could be an illusion of our minds. We could be dreaming right now, and just thinking we are in control when, really, it's all an illusion. The only thing we can be sure of is that our minds are working, whether in control or not. Just ask Descartes. Yes i agree. damn you i didnt think of that. (lol jk ) but being serious now, if you are lucid, you would be consious of the fact that this could be an illusion. And being able to do anything you want in a lucid dream, you would be able to snap out of that illusion. But i agree with silverzero. Why would it make a difference?

[Serith]

What convinces me that we're in as much control of ourselves in lucid dreams as we are while awake is that in while you're awake, you can tell yourself to try something while dreaming, and if you have a lucid dream, you'll usually remember to try it, while you won't in non-lucid dreams. If lucid dreams didn't grant more control, then you'd be no more likely to try your pre-determined goals in a lucid dream than in any other dream. Even if that's not enough proof for you, if it feels like you're in control, and you do the same things you would do if you were in control, then what difference does it make? Sure, you can't definitely prove beyond a doubt that you're in control when you're lucid(or anytime, really), but if you act the same as you would if you were in control, then does it matter if you're actually in control?

[Henrique]

Frerich, I'm not a hardcore lucider as you said, but I had about 20 in my life. And the only thing I know for sure is that we have diffente levels of lucidity, and it affects a lot when we wake up after having one LD. Its essential to develop your recall abilties first. Other thing I'm sure is that when you had your first LD you'll change this idea. When you really know you are dreaming you may feel excitation, or not. But you'll feel something amazing, and you'll be convinced that dreams can be as real (or more) than real life, so your concepts about reality changes after that! This is the most amazing thing ever! Try a month, two or three if necessary, having your first and desired Lucid Dream worths all the effort! Bye Frerich!!

[Oneironaught]

Simply put, lucid means "clear to the understanding". Therefor, if you know you are dreaming then you are dreaming lucidly. When lucid, you know and can feel a difference from standard dream thought processes. There is a clear-cut distinction that marks the lucidity as being different from other dream thoughts and activities. You simply know.