Thread: Free will or Fate?

It apears like this is gradually turning into a religion topic..

Oh oh oh why doesnt that surprise me..

I wonder why we actually argue, because its fun probally..because nobody is going to convert nobody anyway. But hell..I gues is nice to let others know of your opinion..

I dont think "God" is all knowing either..nor is he all powerful. God, or in my eyes better said, the cosmos. Consists of many elements, many factors, many things. He contains everything, yet he is nothing and has no control over this. We souls, and all other creatures and beings of all the planes around us are not "destined" to have such an all knowing, all mighty God. It is not the cosmos(or god) that makes up the universe, the planes and its inhabitants,although he supports us, we sort to speak inhabit its body..and its the inhabitants of the body that make up how the cosmos looks and what happens inside of the comos..

Try to compare it with a human body..your own body. It is not you that decides if your body is healthy or not (yes you can indirectly influence it , but try look at the cosmos as a sleeping person) its the things inside that do so..a virus will negatively effect your body..and anti-bacteria will exterminate the virus..vitamines will keep it running and so on.

Now look at the virus as negative energy..the more virus' in the body the worse is its condition. The more vitamins(postive energy) the better its condition(i know thats not true..but lets say it, I know to much vitamins isnt good for you either..but then, the eternal balance..)
Now it is us humans that make up if the planet(a part of the cosmos body, this reality is but one part) is healty or not. Do we spread alot of negative, or postive energy?

Depending on if we spread negative or postive energy will make up our own fate, and the fate of the planet. Not the will of the all mighty god. When we spread so much negative energy we are doomed, we bring it upon ourselves. God cannot stop that.

Originally posted by adidas
my dad was a carpenter, is it now my destiny to build houses all my life? or is it my destiny to write a novel? i don't know.

Jesus' earthly father was a carpenter too.

The epidemic of hate that resides in what’s left your soul,
Starts right where you buried all your fears
But did you trade reason for abandonment
And in the depths, did you seal the last of your emotions?-me[/b]

*sigh*

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

This is so well put phantasy and I am totally in agreement with everything you've mentioned. Great Point Im impressed.

Wow thanks.

I guess everything I said only works if you 'believe in God', including the fact that God cannot be compared to anything, not even humans. But then this thread isn't about the determining if there is a God. That's another 5 page forum discussion.

I am actually enjoying this discussion, its hard to get into these sort of things on a regular basis. Plus, I get to think critcally!

Originally posted by phantasy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phantasy)</div>

'Proof'? You mean miracles?[/b]

no, because miracles can be distorted by the recipient. televangelism is a good example of this. -- i would want concrete evidence proving the existence of a being such as god. science tells us how the earth was made, science tells us how we came to be. science provides me with this evidence. yes science is subject to flaws but it changes with the times, unlike organized religions which are subject to adhering to their divine writings.

Originally posted by phantasy@

What do you mean by 'variations' btw? There are no variations, whatever you decide is still part of His plan. You do not know your future nor fate and therefore cannot tell if this 'variation' was or was not part of fate. I guess with me its the opposite, relying on my own and other people's studies and knowledge is too ambigious for me, I need a set of rules and guidelines and proof that my religion gives.

i'll answer that question with an exerpt from your post...<!--QuoteBegin-phantasy

Even Muslims have problems understanding the concept and I have heard it explained many ways myself.

just the fact that it has been explained different ways brings up conflict and variations within the religion, but in the bigger picture, the picture of organized religions as a whole who's to say which way is right? these variations in the church form different religions... so who's right? now there's one infallible word of god, how can it get distorted by so many? are muslims wrong? are christians wrong? are jews wrong? i guess we'll never know because "it's beyond us." so why argue about it? why start wars over it? you can keep your faith, i prefer my science. we'll both live out our lives, you'll believe that if you pray "hard enough" (which in itself is and extremely ambiguous saying. would sitting down and setting yourself on fire be "hard enough?") you will change your fate/destiny, and i'll continue believing that my actions, not prayers, will make me a good person, in turn make my fate/destiny more fruitful.

Originally posted by Lucius
It apears like this is gradually turning into a religion topic..

Oh oh oh why doesnt that surprise me..

I wonder why we actually argue, because its fun probally..because nobody is going to convert nobody anyway. But hell..I gues is nice to let others know of your opinion..

exactly, and its a fun subject. i've had online arguments about god before and no i've never been converted, but i do pick up new information. information that i can use in life. its just fun as long as no one gets too nasty.

Originally posted by Lowercase Society
Jesus' earthly father was a carpenter too.

haha, my stoner buddies call me jesus for that exact same reason.

my stoner friends back home call me MOSES! lets be palls. haha.
the reason why is that...
they were having a concert at my high school and i decided to stage dive.
well as soon as i jumped the crowd SPLIT SO AMAZINGLY like the red sea...so i was endowed the name moses. and my other used to be stoner, who is still a friend is called jesus, so weird

Call it 'womens intuition', but I think I'm on to something here.
Temporaryism has been the 'Black Plague' and the 'Jesus' of our age.[/b]

they were having a concert at my high school and i decided to stage dive.
well as soon as i jumped the crowd SPLIT SO AMAZINGLY like the red sea...so i was endowed the name moses. and my other used to be stoner, who is still a friend is called jesus, so weird
[/b]

Lol, i guess it was a painful revelation

Originally posted by adidas+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adidas)</div>

i'll answer that question with an exerpt from your post...

Originally posted by phantasy@

Even Muslims have problems understanding the concept and I have heard it explained many ways myself.

just the fact that it has been explained different ways brings up conflict and variations within the religion, but in the bigger picture, the picture of organized religions as a whole who's to say which way is right? these variations in the church form different religions... .[/b]

That's not what I meant.
I meant I heard it explained in different ways so it could be understood such as analogies. I didn't mean the idea different within the religion. My fault for saying it not clear enough.

<!--QuoteBegin-adidas

so who's right? now there's one infallible word of god, how can it get distorted by so many? are muslims wrong? are christians wrong? are jews wrong? i guess we'll never know because \"it's beyond us.\" so why argue about it? why start wars over it? you can keep your faith, i prefer my science. we'll both live out our lives, you'll believe that if you pray \"hard enough\" (which in itself is and extremely ambiguous saying. would sitting down and setting yourself on fire be \"hard enough?\") you will change your fate/destiny, and i'll continue believing that my actions, not prayers, will make me a good person, in turn make my fate/destiny more fruitful.

When a person takes a religion for their faith, it means they reject other religions. That is a given usually. Muslims believe that Islam was a continuation of Christanity and Judism. We have many historical similarities such as prophets such as Abraham, the idea of heaven and hell and many more. But, you that means you believe in the truths yur religion presents to you.

When it comes to wars, religion does not cause wars, people do. Religion tells you the spread the truth and fight oppressors, but there will be always those you misinterpret and use religion to their own advantage.
Science has been used the same way. The ideas of Darwin have been used to justify the killing of others with the idea that the 'strongest survive'. The science of the atom in the atom bomb. Can you say science caused it? No. People used it to push their own evil ideas.

In Islam, the truth is not 'beyond us', only it is needed to be discovered sometimes such as in science. I think it is agreed that there are still sciences and facts still needed to be discovered. God knows all already because He created it. Islam has no problem with science, it is seen as a part of God's power and creation. Knowledge holds great value in Islam.

What sort of evidence do you want? In Islam, the evidence is in the Quran, our holy book. There is plenty of scientific evidence in the Qur'an couldn't have been a human being's work since it spoke of natural facts that were far ahead of scientific knowledge 1400 years ago. If you want a link of examples, let me know. The evidence is in His creations and in the perfect balance. How could everything fit so well together? Why do all atoms of the same element have the same amount of protons and different elements have different amounts? How is it that our Earth is not too hot or cold, just right for living creatures? Is it all a lovely coensedence or accident?

Oh I guess I forgot you know very little about Islam? Apologies. There is a set was to pray different prayers. It isn't just wishing and hoping. You can go to any Muslims in any part of the world, we pray the same. If you want more info on this, I could present a link. There is nothing vague about it, there is an exactness. And Allah would never allow an act of worship to be something harmful or difficult for us, He is the The Merciful, He know what we are capable of.

And why do bad things can happen to good people? People with nothing but good intentions and actions, but then something goes terribly wrong? How does this fit in with your concept of destiny? Islam does have an answer to this, but I'd like to hear yours first.

Phantasy,

Im just curious to know. I have a very close Persian friend who is Shitte' (I think Im spelling it right). I was just wondering do you fall in this category of islamic faith?

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Phantasy,

Im just curious to know. I have a very close Persian friend who is Shitte' (I think Im spelling it right). I was just wondering do you fall in this category of islamic faith?

Oh, I am a Sunni.

To tell you the truth, I hate these words. They can only split the Muslim community apart. To me, a Muslim is a Muslim, no matter which. It's a long story in the history of Islam. If you want to know how this split happened and how we are different, here is an excerpt:

Question:
What are the differences between the two sects Shias and Sunnis?
Answer:
Linguistically speaking, the term Shia means followers or supporters. In a historical context, it means the supporters of Ali ibn Abu Talib, the Prophet's cousin, who became the fourth ruler of the Muslim state. When he took over, there was a split between him and other groups of Muslims over the question of dealing with those who mounted the rebellion against his predecessor, Uthman ibn Affan. At this time, there was no such sect as Shia. However, after he was assassinated, his supporters wanted his son, Al Hassan, to take over. They maintained that succession should remain among his descendants. The Shias continued to oppose the Ummayid and Abbasid governments for a very long time. This lead to the provision of a religious backing to the political opposition. Hence, the rise of the Shiite school of thought which institutionalizes the role of the imam. Thus, we have the Jaafari or the Imami school of thought which lists 12 imams whom the Shia venerate. The Zaidi school of thought, which is largely concentrated in Yemen, lists only 7 imams. The question of the role of the imam is the basic issue of difference between Shias and Sunnis. The Term "Sunni" on the other hand, means from linguistic point of view a follower of a method. In an Islamic sense, the term Sunnah means the method shown by the Prophet. Within our context, it refers to the majority of Muslims who gave allegiance to the Muslim state, starting with Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and going through the Umayyids, the Abbasids, etc. They do not recognize the Shiite claim that Ali had a stronger claim to succeed the Prophet as the ruler of the Muslim state. They maintain that anyone has an equal claim provided that he meets the qualifications required for the post. In our day and age, it is more important to stress points of agreement rather than points of disagreement, because what unites Muslims is much greater than what disunites them. With the enemies of Islam trying hard to sow the seeds of discord among us, we should try our best to render their attempts futile.

Thats very interesting information Phantasy, This is the very main reason why politics and religion doesn't mix, the outcome is always in some form of seperatism. I guess its pretty much safe to say that the imam should concentrate more of ways to unite sunni and shias together oppossed to teachings of what makes them different. Were the imams a product of Governmental interference?

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Thats very interesting information Phantasy, This is the very main reason why politics and religion doesn't mix, the outcome is always in some form of seperatism. I guess its pretty much safe to say that the imam should concentrate more of ways to unite sunni and shias together oppossed to teachings of what makes them different. Were the imams a product of Governmental interference?

Imams are Muslim Priests.
Ideally in Islam, politics and religion should mix. Firstly because there is such as thing as Islamic law which shows how this can be done through the caliphate system. Also, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an example of a statesman and a religious leader, among many other things. Shias believed that leadership could only fall on desendants of the Prophet. Shias are by no means the majority of Muslims, most are from Iran and Iraq, which is a small percentage. Just because seperatism occurs doesn't mean the connection in politics and religion is a bad one. Not meaning the Shias, there will always be those who use the beliefs of many to further their own power.

Oh Im sorry I guess I was totally way off point. I understand it much better now and if I somehow said anything wrong Phantasy Im really sorry. Thanks for the insight of this amazing background information.

What bothers me the most about religion is the fact that in the end, somebody has to be right, and somebody has to be wrong..im not saying who is right and who is wrong, but somebody simply has to be, some religions are alike, but still like between eastern and western religions is a big diffirence..so I divide religions up in:

- Those believe in a heaven/hell system or something like it, those who believe you live on life and are then judged. Mostly western beliefs such as the Islam and christianity

- Those who believe in a reincarnation and karma system, those who believe you live multiple lifes,sometimes multiple gods/godesss,including alternative occult beliefs and all eastern religions

- Those who belief nothing, or something completely diffirent. Mostly atheists like.

Now 2 out of 3 are going to be wrong in a sense. That is rather disturbing, its not that I feel I might be wrong, but the fact that so many people might be wrong is just unbearable. Thats why I choose to belief:

In the end all people who choose to belief that what makes them a better person shall be rewarded. Thus, everybody that is a good person, regardless of what he/she beliefs, everbody that tries to help out others, that tries not to hurt others and that has respect for the planet shall be rewarded/enlighted whatever.

I think as a matter of fact that religion was not really destined to be..you see many 1000sands of years ago organized religion was really inexistant. Thats why I think religion, or faith has to come from the soul itself, and if you are in touch with your inner self you shall ultimately choose the religion that is perfect for YOU. That insures you shall become the best possible person, and that insures you the personal and spiritual growth you need. For phantasy this is the Islam, for me this is buddism and occultism, for another this is christianity.
But I think in the end we shall all be right, we shall grow into the best possible person we can be. Mabey the true belief is none existant, mabey faith and religion is just there to help people grow and become a better person.

So I am not saying that makes everybody a good person, but I think one see the diffirence between a good and a bad person..because all religions do about agree on that..compassion, respect, kindness, helpfulness,peaceful and so on are values of good..arrogance,destructive,agressive,warmonger,ha tred,corruption are values of bad..

Because it is simply impossible..that only one of us all ..is right.

I believe in neither fate nor free will. I believe that the one and only random beginning of the universe started a humongous chain reaction.

Example
Bob's choice to go to the park was a result of a gigantic list of variables that effected his mind. Such as looking a red apple, a minute detail but it effects his mind slightly none the less. He looked at the apple because of another gigantic list of things he saw, felt, heard, etc. Each one being traceable to the big bang.

It is not free will because what you will do in a year is a result of what you see, hear, and experience now which is in turn a result of the beginning.

It is not fate because your future is written. The only way to determine your future would be to create a computer that operates faster than the speed of light and the knowledge of the initial big bang itself.

I'm not sure I explained that right but whatever, I'm too lazy to go into detail and go back to check my explanation.

spinjoel, i have to disagree(no hard feelings man, nothing against you,etc)
i do have an open mind, but i cannot accept the fact that a huge explosion, stated crudely, could bring about the world in which we live in today.

i mean look at the complexitiy of the human body, how everything works, just look for example of how people can 'fall in love', this is not all an accident.

again, this is just MY opinion, and i dont want you to hate me for what i believe, but i think that all these opinions provide open ground for discussion, i just dont want it to turn into a blood spilled battleground about faith and religion.

the world is a roller coaster, and i am not strapped in, maybe i should hold on with care, but my arms are busy in the air.[/b]

Originally posted by spinjoel
I believe in neither fate nor free will. I believe that the one and only random beginning of the universe started a humongous chain reaction.

Example
Bob's choice to go to the park was a result of a gigantic list of variables that effected his mind. Such as looking a red apple, a minute detail but it effects his mind slightly none the less. He looked at the apple because of another gigantic list of things he saw, felt, heard, etc. Each one being traceable to the big bang.

It is not free will because what you will do in a year is a result of what you see, hear, and experience now which is in turn a result of the beginning.

It is not fate because your future is written. The only way to determine your future would be to create a computer that operates faster than the speed of light and the knowledge of the initial big bang itself.

I'm not sure I explained that right but whatever, I'm too lazy to go into detail and go back to check my explanation.

Yes, I know what you are talking about. But it's just a beginning... Then

this thoughts will lead you to the idea that human existence is pointless.

Ok, you can live with it, but when at some point you will have a

depression and your thoughts will evolve - "I'm feeling pain now. Human

existence is pointless. Why should i suffer for xx more years?" and it will

lead you to suicidal thoughts/attempt.

At least that's what happened to me.

Science offers you no hope. It may extend your life, yet it rejects the idea of eternal afterlife/reincarnation.

That's why i turned to some kind of universal belief in God. I guess you can call it occultism... But it comforts me.

That's alright, my belief is based on a random beginning. Nobody has the same beliefs as another person, you can disagree but where is the point?

Please don't turn this into a discussion of deities, it's hard to use a diety based argument against somebody without a religion.

About the depression stuff, I don't believe in any creationist and I'm a pretty decent person. I accept that I am nothing. It's not that hard for me to take in. I have been an atheist for a few years. I can't explain how I understand the emptiness like you can't fully explain your feeling of meaning.

I don't understand how people can be so sure of everything. For all we know there are an infinite amount of dimensions and other various aspects of life that are incomprehensible. It's stupid to say we understand the universe.

If there is a god out there, I'm sure they'd understand, being omnipotent and all.

Until we understand everything, we are nothing.

Edit: As for the being an atheist, you would assume this contradicts my beliefs. I think not, for I believe that if there is a creator, nobody on earth is correct. Religion has been destroyed and my belief in any of it would have to rely on my trust for the human species, of which I have none.

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Oh Im sorry I guess I was totally way off point. I understand it much better now and if I somehow said anything wrong Phantasy Im really sorry. Thanks for the insight of this amazing background information.

No problem.

I just want to say that I'm not trying to make any sort of bloody fight, I'm just putting these ideas out there to those who do not know Islam and at least inform. I mean, its a lack of knowledge about my religion that causes people to perform hate crimes against Muslims, which has grown post 9/11.

"Give up what appears to be doubtful for what is certain. Truth brings peace of mind, and deception doubt."
-The Prophet Muhammad, as reported by Hasan bin 'Ali

Thats so retarded.

I mean, youd really have to be a wuss and a real rasist bastard to perform hate crime, solely based on some 1s race.

Sterotypes r all over the place, and i blame it on the media.

Examples:

Muslim on an airplane=BOOM

Black guys at night=robberiey(this is where the sterio comes in)

Black guy in elevator=hold your purse

Irishman...hmmm....=Drunk

4 or more Mexicans=Border hopers (South west)

HOW MUCH MORE IGNORANT COULD YOU BE. I MEAN, this subjct just pisses me off.

I dont think it's the media it's how you interpret this.
Media tries to be as politically correct as possible, it's stereotypes that are bad.

One thing I remember from my old high school history teacher -

"news always show you BAD stuff. Explosions, murder, terrorism,

cheating, etc. They want sensations.

Not many people are interested in watching the story of a saved puppy or

rescued people. Nobody is going to watch race if there is no crashes.

But in REALITY there are much more good stuff then bad. They show it to

you, cause you dont see any of this stuff in your real life."

Originally posted by spinjoel
It's stupid to say we understand the universe.

Well, we dont, really. Nobody can truely understand how complex the cosmos really is. But we can at least try to understand, and better, try to learn to understand. But regardless of how much we learn, even an enlighted person cannot understand the secrets of the eternal I agree but..

I think instead of trying to understand the universe I think we should try to understand ourselves a little bit better. Self knowlege is something few of us really have, people think they no themselves, but nobody really knows himself really, nobody is truely in touch with his soul and inner self. How can be we understand the universe if we cant even cant even understand deepest selves?

Nobody in this forum has complete self understanding and knowledge, nobody in this forum is completely self accepting, nobody really knows his inner self completely, everybody is very complex for itself..