Hate in America

[Taosaur]

This thread was inspired by today's shooting at the Holocaust Museum in DC, which got me over to the Southern Poverty Law Center's map of hate groups in America: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp So many in the Rush and O'Reilly camps pitched a fit when the DHS released their assessment of Right Wing extremism as a source of domestic terror in April, and we've had two gunmen citing Right Wing ideology in two weeks, for at least three in the past year (I'm thinking of the Knoxville UU shooter last summer). Is the overheated rhetoric at all to blame?

[Zhaylin]

My goodness! I looked at the chart. There's "only" 24 groups in New York but 40 (!!!) in New Jersey. For such a relatively small place there's an aweful lot of hate going on...

[l000needles]

My goodness! I looked at the chart. There's "only" 24 groups in New York but 40 (!!!) in New Jersey. For such a relatively small place there's an aweful lot of hate going on... Lol. Because Indians hate everyone that's not Indian.

[Bearsy]

Lol. Because Indians hate everyone that's not Indian. Right... because that statement wasn't racist at all.

[Black_Eagle]

Oh, would you look at that? My home state of Alaska has zero hate groups. Makes sense. I mean, you don't have time to hate your fellow man when you're fighting off grizzlies.

[Universal Mind]

The left doesn't have any of those hateful types. Thank goodness. It is like a sunny picnic talking politics with all lefties. At least people like Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow preach nothing but love and tolerance. They are so open-minded.

[Taosaur]

And yet...no gunmen. I would propose it's because the center has been pulled far enough right that the lunatic fringe is simply closer on that side.

[Universal Mind]

And yet...no gunmen. I would propose it's because the center has been pulled far enough right that the lunatic fringe is simply closer on that side. Let's see here... The Weather Underground uses bombs, and Manson followers use knives. Enviromentalist terrorists plant metal gadgets in trees that kill lumberjacks who use chainsaws. I am not sure what weapon Ira Inehorn used to murder after spewing a bunch of left wing talk about peace and love. Was it a knife? Hmmm, I guess those aren't guns. That's much better.

[Taosaur]

Let's see here... The Weather Underground uses bombs, and Manson followers use knives. Enviromentalist terrorists plant metal gadgets in trees that kill lumberjacks who use chainsaws. I am not sure what weapon Ira Inehorn used to murder after spewing a bunch of left wing talk about peace and love. Was it a knife? Hmmm, I guess those aren't guns. That's much better. I would propose it's because the center has been pulled far enough right that the lunatic fringe is simply closer on that side. Let me narrow that down for you to the last three decades.

[Universal Mind]

Let me narrow that down for you to the last three decades. We can talk about the current street gangs and other violent street thugs, for example. Are they a bunch of Republicans? Uh, no. They are Democrats. Have you heard the rap thug heroes of the left praising Obama and dogging Bush? Remember that I am not a Republican. I think both parties suck even though I think the Republican Party understands foreign policy a lot better and ecomics a little bit better. It just amazes me when people talk as though the far left is morally superior to the far right. They are not. They are two different versions of the same damn thing. The far left is a holy roller movement that just worships the liberal social image instead of Jesus and that is just as hostile, preachy, and hypocritical as the far right.

[Taosaur]

We can talk about the current street gangs and other violent street thugs, for example. Are they a bunch of Republicans? Uh, no. They are Democrats. Have you heard the rap thug heroes of the left praising Obama and dogging Bush? Remember that I am not a Republican. I think both parties suck even though I think the Republican Party understands foreign policy a lot better and ecomics a little bit better. It just amazes me when people talk as though the far left is morally superior to the far right. They are not. They are two different versions of the same damn thing. The far left is a holy roller movement that just worships the liberal social image instead of Jesus and that is just as hostile, preachy, and hypocritical as the far right. You don't have to make my point for me with a stretch like "street thugs" and "rap thug heroes of the left." C'mon. I'm not saying the far Left is "morally superior;" I'm saying they're all but absent. The "far left" you're describing is outnumbered and out-shouted on the Right by 3 to 1, and the only violence they've inspired in my lifetime is property damage by ALF and ELF. Who else on the Left has resorted to violence to advance a political or ideological agenda? No one is marching into First Baptist Megachurch or the Heritage Foundation with guns blazing to strike fear in the hearts of the Ol' Boys' Network. Rhetoric on the Left has never been more heated than during the Dubya days, and all that came of it were peaceful protests and the State GOP HQ in Ohio got tagged--graffitti.

[Universal Mind]

You don't have to make my point for me with a stretch like "street thugs" and "rap thug heroes of the left." C'mon. I'm not saying the far Left is "morally superior;" I'm saying they're all but absent. The "far left" you're describing is outnumbered and out-shouted on the Right by 3 to 1, and the only violence they've inspired in my lifetime is property damage by ALF and ELF. Who else on the Left has resorted to violence to advance a political or ideological agenda? No one is marching into First Baptist Megachurch or the Heritage Foundation with guns blazing to strike fear in the hearts of the Ol' Boys' Network. Rhetoric on the Left has never been more heated than during the Dubya days, and all that came of it were peaceful protests and the State GOP HQ in Ohio got tagged--graffitti. You don't agree that rap and street thugs are left wing? They are. Why do you disagree? Look up a video of any famous gangster rapper talking politics. You will see what I mean. Listen to how pro-violence they are. You forgot about the Iraq war protestors who stopped traffic in New York. Think about what that did to emergency vehicles. Also, there were people throwing rocks at some of those protests. The L.A. riots were totally left wing, and so were the rap thugs who condoned them. A bunch of people were killed in those riots, and there was like a billion dollars worth of property damage. Tons of businesses were ruined. Those are just some examples. Right wing extremists do once in a while do stuff like pull a shooting at a museum or blow up an abortion clinic or federal building, but it's usually one or two guys doing it. They don't riot in mass numbers. I don't know where you get the 3 to 1 figure. The fringe elements of both sides are way too big and are equally ridiculous.

[Catbus]

Those are just some examples. Right wing extremists do once in a while do stuff like pull a shooting at a museum or blow up an abortion clinic or federal building, but it's usually one or two guys doing it. They don't riot in mass numbers. As if the fact that it's 'usually one or two guys doing it' makes the acts any less devastating. And as for no right-wing riots... http://www.topnews.in/law/three-dead...leaders-arrest http://www.parti-sosialis.org/posts/...de-parliament/ http://prod.indymedia.nl/en/2007/10/48008.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots Doesn't it seem like a stretch to say that out of an ENTIRE ideology there would be no mass violence? I'm not supporting left wing violence, just trying to show that it happens on both sides.

[Universal Mind]

As if the fact that it's 'usually one or two guys doing it' makes the acts any less devastating. And as for no right-wing riots... http://www.topnews.in/law/three-dead...leaders-arrest http://www.parti-sosialis.org/posts/...de-parliament/ http://prod.indymedia.nl/en/2007/10/48008.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots Doesn't it seem like a stretch to say that out of an ENTIRE ideology there would be no mass violence? I'm not supporting left wing violence, just trying to show that it happens on both sides. Woes, I am not at all taking up for the shootings and bombings. What made you think I was? You don't have to convince me that stuff is devastating or that the numbers of people responsible for a given number of killings are irrelevant to the devastating nature of them. No kidding. WTF???? Right wing violence pretty much never involves riots even though you dug up a few that have happened in history. Again, I think the fringe elements of both sides are ridiculous. Don't you????? The left and the right are both cults. I am a member of neither. I believe in free thinking. Once you join a political cult, you are committed to the cult instead of the truth, which is extremely anti-intellectual and anti-progress.

[Odd_Nonposter]

Lets look at some statistics: Spoiler for Hate group stats: (I love my graphing calculator) Total hate groups: 926 Number of States: 51 (incl. D.C.) Mean number of hate groups per state: 18.2 Median number of hate groups per state: 13 Standard of deviation: 17.6 Maximum: 84 Minimum: 0 Average number of people/hate group (est. national population 306 million): 324,000 (Note that this does not mean that a hate group has that many persons in it. It only means that in a given population of 324,000, there is likely to be at least 1 hate group.) It's difficult to determine if any given state is average, because the data is quite skewed. (I know that somebody is going to refute these statistics. The data is positively skewed. This was just some quick and dirty work with a gcalc.)

[Taosaur]

Doesn't it seem like a stretch to say that out of an ENTIRE ideology there would be no mass violence? I'm not supporting left wing violence, just trying to show that it happens on both sides. We're really talking about the US since Nixon, Catbus. I'm emphatically NOT trying to say that one end of the spectrum is inherently more violent than the other, only that politics in this country now are shifted to the Right enough that there's more activity on that fringe, and hence that's where the danger lies. You don't agree that rap and street thugs are left wing? They are. Why do you disagree? Look up a video of any famous gangster rapper talking politics. You will see what I mean. Listen to how pro-violence they are. You forgot about the Iraq war protestors who stopped traffic in New York. Think about what that did to emergency vehicles. Also, there were people throwing rocks at some of those protests. The L.A. riots were totally left wing, and so were the rap thugs who condoned them. A bunch of people were killed in those riots, and there was like a billion dollars worth of property damage. Tons of businesses were ruined. Those are just some examples. Right wing extremists do once in a while do stuff like pull a shooting at a museum or blow up an abortion clinic or federal building, but it's usually one or two guys doing it. They don't riot in mass numbers. I don't know where you get the 3 to 1 figure. The fringe elements of both sides are way too big and are equally ridiculous. Asking people who have engaged in violence, such as gang bangers and rioters, which political party they support more is not the same thing as political extremism. The activity was not undertaken with a political agenda to serve any ideology. Singers and actors are another matter entirely, not even comparable to O'Reilly, much less von Brunn, in that the politics are at best secondary to what they do. Also, in dozens of protests numbering into the hundreds of thousands of attendees per protest, including pretty much all our most radical Left organizations, that traffic was upset once and someone threw rocks rather supports my point. The Left in this country simply isn't as far to the Left in the same numbers that the Right is to the Right, though there are plenty of people in the middle. As a result, violent, conflict-themed rhetoric from the Right bears a much stronger chance of emboldening fanatics and serving as narrative for the violently deranged.

[Catbus]

Woes, I am not at all taking up for the shootings and bombings. What made you think I was? You don't have to convince me that stuff is devastating or that the numbers of people responsible for a given number of killings are irrelevant to the devastating nature of them. No kidding. WTF???? I wasn't trying to pin you on that, I just misinterpreted it. I think the fringe elements of both sides are ridiculous. Don't you????? Yes. I think I read your post as saying the ultra-right never commits mass violence, instead of what you really intended. We're really talking about the US since Nixon, Catbus. I'm emphatically NOT trying to say that one end of the spectrum is inherently more violent than the other, only that politics in this country now are shifted to the Right enough that there's more activity on that fringe, and hence that's where the danger lies. I gotchya.

[Lëzen]

84 hate groups total...w00t! Proud to be a Californian. And of course, I'm being sarcastic. I don't know exactly where accusations of "Left-wing extremists are more/less violent than right-wing extremists" came up...I guess the subject just kind of popped up out of nowhere, as tends to happen a lot on this forum, I noticed. But I think we can just have the whole thing settled by saying that all extremists (and just "activists" in general) are fucknuts and leave it at that.

[spockman]

Oh, would you look at that? My home state of Alaska has zero hate groups. Makes sense. I mean, you don't have time to hate your fellow man when you're fighting off grizzlies.

[Taosaur]

84 hate groups total...w00t! Proud to be a Californian. And of course, I'm being sarcastic. I don't know exactly where accusations of "Left-wing extremists are more/less violent than right-wing extremists" came up...I guess the subject just kind of popped up out of nowhere, as tends to happen a lot on this forum, I noticed. But I think we can just have the whole thing settled by saying that all extremists (and just "activists" in general) are fucknuts and leave it at that. Yeah, those fucking activists, all safeguarding our freedoms and our health and holding government accountable, seeking justice for the downtrodden and all that bullshit. What a bunch of jerks.

[Universal Mind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xAMsEZ9D9E

[Keresztanya]

Hmm, 37 in PA...

[Universal Mind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxaLHsdYTnk I know the L.A. riots happened 17 years ago, but the thug element and its violent left wing mentality are still just as alive. A similar act of terrorism could occur tomorrow.

[Taosaur]

Hmm, 37 in PA... Yeah, I was a little disappointed but not particularly surprised by that myself. I grew up in a small town in PA, and pretty much all forms of prejudice--racism, sexism/homophobia and antisemitism, definitely--were expressed blatantly (thought not by that many individuals) without much fear of censure. I'm thinking it's the concentrations of poor whites who rarely come in contact with anyone of a different background.

[DuB]

Seems like "hate groups per capita" would be a more useful measure. My home state is apparently home to a relatively modest 19 hate groups, but when you consider that about as many people live in this entire state as in the city of Los Angeles...