Mucuna Pruriens / L-DOPA

[Spamtek]

Mucuna Pruriens, more commonly known as Velvet Bean or Cowitch, is a tropical bean that contains phenomenal levels of a substance called levodopa, or L-DOPA. Levodopa is the direct precursor to Dopamine, Norepinephrine, and Epinephrine, typically synthesized in the body from the amino acid tyrosine. Levodopa is unique in that it can cross the blood-brain barrier whereas dopamine itself cannot; once in the brain it's then converted into a reserve of usable dopamine (and the other neurotransmitters as well). Reading up on Wikpedia and elsewhere, I read enough things about dopamine / L-DOPA (its precursor, after all) to see if supplementation with Mucuna Pruriens might do anything for me. My interest is triple-pronged: 1. Dopamine levels in the brain appear to be related to motivational behavior; in test subjects (rats) low dopamine levels result in unmotivated, lazy, apathetic creatures. In extreme cases they even lacked the willpower to move themselves to a food dish to eat, despite obvious signs of hunger. This interests me because I have been suffering for some time from what I like to call (half-jokingly) "extreme apathy(&#33," where at times even things like walking to a dining hall or playing a game feel like immense wastes of time that couldn't possibly have any benefit. My enjoyment of these activities doesn't diminish, but the drive to do them does. I'd like to see if artificially pumping my dopamine levels has any effect on this. 2. Increasing dopamine levels in the brain appears to be a useful tactic for fighting Parkinson's disease. This interests me because while I don't have Parkinson's (lucky me), I do have a benign essential tremor in my hands that destroys my ability to perform fine motor movements with any sort of grace (my writing is chicken scratch, my lines are zigzags, my circles are... let's not get into it). I have irrational hope that if pumping up dopamine levels can decrease the impact of Parkinson's, that it can have an impact on other sorts of tremors as well. 3. What you're all interested in: Dopamine plays a role in proper sleep and dreaming. People with Parkinson's (low dopamine, remember) typically exhibit signs of sleep disorder to some extent or another. Lab results on rats at least do show that animals with severely reduced dopamine levels are unable to sleep, and that increased brain levels of the neurotransmitter showed, as seen under brain scan, brain patterns mimicking those of REM sleep and the dream state, even in wakefulness. Schizophrenics and psychotics (Who have too much dopamine, all the time) are thought to experience their hallucinations and delusions because of their heightened levels of dopamine. And finally, well, Wikipedia mentions that one of the "side-effects" of taking L-DOPA is "vivid dreams." All this under consideration, I placed an order for a bottle of 60 500mg capsules of Mucuna Pruriens (w/ ~40mg levodopa per pill), and it should be here around next monday/tuesday. Stay tuned...!

[SKA]

My mom sais she has heard of L-Dopa being seriously risky. Many people who have gotten L-dopa as an experimental cure for some kind of brainvirus that puts you in a sort of zombie like wake-walk stategot good results, followed by their old problem comming back but X10 in intensity. Side effects were permanent Facial spasms and numbness of the facial muscles. She refered to the Movie ''The awakening'' which was based on a true story.

[Spamtek]

I've definitely never head of this magical brain-virus you speak of; all the clinical applications of L-DOPA I've heard of have been for Parkinson's. If you can, could you get in contact with her and get her to clarify? I'd like to know what I'm up against. I've definitely heard my share of scare stories about it too, but it puzzles me because L-DOPA is, in the production chain of dopamine, only one or two chemical substances away from things we seem to consider a whole lot less risky: phenylalanine and tyrosine. The full metabolic pathway (I'm probably using the word wrong... go me!) is l-phenylalanine > l-tyrosine > l-dopa > dopamine > epinephrine > norepinephrine. I realize it's a "heavier" substance than traditional oneirogens and I mean to approach it with respect for that fact. Frankly, I suspect that people using it to cure a zombifying brain virus are probably consuming the precursor in quantities far vaster than even the maximum dose suggested on these supplement bottles, which warn you not to take more than ~20mg or half a capsule a day. (edit: l-phenylalanine is l-tyrosine's precursor, not the other way around. Fixed.)

[yoast]

Sounds promising, looking forward to read your experiences with it.

[Spamtek]

I got my pillz. There's little concensus on ideal dosing (mostly because there's little concensus on what use levodopa even serves outside the Parkinson's community), but I probably won't exceed 100mg levodopa daily. I'll take one caplet now (40mg equivalent L-DOPA) and another right at bedtime, and I'll keep you all updated on how it goes, dream- and other-wise. I'm not too afraid of the litany of side effects that Wikipedia mentions on its article on levodopa: AFAIK, these side effects were documented during Parkinson trials, and Parkinsonism-related dosing of L-DOPA runs in the range of grams per day (that's a lot!). I'm nowhere near that ballpark - still, I proceed with caution.

[Spamtek]

Day 1 Mixed effects. During the first half-day before I slept, I can't say I felt anything different whatsoever. Last night was a troubling mix of variables. I took my pruriens right before sleeping, and... my sleep was very chopped up. I don't think I got more than a half hour or hour of sleep at a time. My dreams seem to have been pretty wild from what I can recall, but I arose in a state where I was not very willing to wake up fully and try to remember in greater detail. My alarm rang at 5:30 AM and I found myself bone-tired and with a raw, sore throat, so instead of kipping up and grabbing my journal I just rolled over and slept for another 90 minutes. First impression is this must be the l-dopa in action... but other things might have caused the general unpleasantness too. My roommate stole his blanket back from me that I've been using for a month, for instance, so I was sleeping with nothing but a sheet and was freezing cold all night. I don't know which of the two factors did me in. So I feel like crap this morning, probably a combo of whatever it is that gave me a sore throat and broken sleep, and of oversleeping because of that. For the record, 20 hours in and I am feeling no alleviation of general apathy, hand tremors, or humdrum dreams. (edit: my eyes also burn with the rage of a thousand suns, but that may just be allergies to some as-yet-unknown plant, since they've been feeling sore for the last few days too. And more sneezing. So that could also be a confounding factor in what's making me feel warmed over today.)

[woblybil]

Just my 2 cents worth (or maybe more) I have a whole drawer full of supplements for lucid dreaming but never use the same one twice within two weeks, What I have learned is that ANY! supplement taken more than one night in a row not only loses it's effectiveness but builds up in the system as most are active for much more than 24 hrs, You can use it one night but it can stay with you 50 hrs or more and the next night you do it again and are OD'd and by the third day you will be Zombified..

[Oneirin]

I was interasted in mucuna a while ago, and still actually have a bag sitting around. I remember reading a post from a neuroscience student, however, that Mucuna in concentrations especially above 10% L-Dope may be very dangerous. He claimed that it could severely alter the production/homeostasis of dopamine within the brain- even though it's a precursor. I don't have too much more information on this claim, but I can see how intentially altering a neurotransmitter would lead to a crash of endogenous production, and a crash afterward. Has anyone heard anything similar?

[xRey]

I am so sorry for necroing this particular topic, but I found it in the google searches while looking for information and I made this account just to reply here. So I've been taking Dopa Mucuna with a 15% concentration on and off for a while now. First week I didn't notice any of the effects, maybe because the body needed time to adjust. I just want to mention first that this is the only "happy pill" that I take. I have PTSD as a result of child abuse from my family when I was younger and I always refused to take any real anti depressants for fear of addiction. But I have to say; this dopa mucuna extract that I'm using has been an immense help for me with calming some of the symptoms and of course with lucid dreaming. Now like I said this is the only mood enhancer that I take. I don't really have any schedule or a set dosage I just take it when I feel that it's needed. That means, every other day, or every 2 days. I normally take 2 pills with a meal before going to sleep. Oh and the sleep... pfff.. it's crazy. I've never had such vivid dreams in my life. Not only that but listen to this: sometimes I'll be dreaming and going to sleep inside my original dream and then dream again there. Then I wake up from my 2nd dream which most of the time it seems so real that if I wasn't always getting away with the crazy shit I'm doing there I would actually think that was real life. I have SO MUCH control there it's not even funny. After I'm back in my orginal dream I loose some control but its still very vivid and I'm clearly aware of it too. In the past 2 weeks I've been taking 2 pills every other day and I've had lucid dreams 4/7 nights a week. I've read across the net that some people feel drowsy or just in a bad mood the 2nd day but I haven't really experienced this myself. If I felt bad in a day where I didn't take the pills it's because something shitty actually happened to me. And other than really improving my sleep and mood it also gives me slightly more energy to do things.

[zelcrow]

Hey xRey, that's interesting. Did you ever have any LDs in your life prior to taking Dopa Mucuna? If so, how often did they occur before you started taking the pill as opposed to after? I just started reading Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements and it talks about how supplements can increase the profundity of LDs and trigger them frequently.

[Darkmatters]

Man, be careful with that stuff. Are you fully aware of the dangers? I've heard it can cause psychotic episodes, and people do totally crazy things while psychotic, like jumping off cliffs or running out into traffic or worse. Somebody above said a concentration more than 10 percent is extremely dangerous. How many mg are you taking per dose? Thomas Yuschak recommends for lucid dreaming dosages 80 – 200 mg, or just for regular use he says (not for lucid dreaming) up to 400 mg is considered safe. I would definitely not do more than that and I wouldn't take it more than maybe twice a week at absolute most, minimum of 2 days free and clear between doses, and even then I'd take every other week off if not two weeks off. Actually, to be on the safe side, personally I wouldn't do it more than once a week, or once every other week. The problem is that it will build up in your system. Even if it doesn't reach dangerous levels that way, at the very least you'll quickly develop a tolerance to it and it won't have the same effect it used to, and that's when people will start taking more and more. Yuschak strongly recommends for any of these supplements give yourself plenty of time off between doses to let all of the chemical work its way out of your system, and then some. I know how tempting it is to want to jump in and do it as much as you can, but you really want to take a much more sober approach to it than that. The effects can be permanent. If you're going to mess with this kind of stuff you should most definitely get his book Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements. Learn what you're getting into and take care.

[xRey]

Hey xRey, that's interesting. Did you ever have any LDs in your life prior to taking Dopa Mucuna? If so, how often did they occur before you started taking the pill as opposed to after? I just started reading Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements and it talks about how supplements can increase the profundity of LDs and trigger them frequently. No, not really.. maybe every few months. But back before I started taking the supplement I didn't know what lucid dreaming was or how to induce it. I only became interested in lucid dreaming since I've been taking these pills. Man, be careful with that stuff. Are you fully aware of the dangers? I've heard it can cause psychotic episodes, and people do totally crazy things while psychotic, like jumping off cliffs or running out into traffic or worse. Somebody above said a concentration more than 10 percent is extremely dangerous. How many mg are you taking per dose? Thomas Yuschak recommends for lucid dreaming dosages 80 – 200 mg, or just for regular use he says (not for lucid dreaming) up to 400 mg is considered safe. I would definitely not do more than that and I wouldn't take it more than maybe twice a week at absolute most, minimum of 2 days free and clear between doses, and even then I'd take every other week off if not two weeks off. Actually, to be on the safe side, personally I wouldn't do it more than once a week, or once every other week. The problem is that it will build up in your system. Even if it doesn't reach dangerous levels that way, at the very least you'll quickly develop a tolerance to it and it won't have the same effect it used to, and that's when people will start taking more and more. Yuschak strongly recommends for any of these supplements give yourself plenty of time off between doses to let all of the chemical work its way out of your system, and then some. I know how tempting it is to want to jump in and do it as much as you can, but you really want to take a much more sober approach to it than that. The effects can be permanent. If you're going to mess with this kind of stuff you should most definitely get his book Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements. Learn what you're getting into and take care. My purpose for these pills were to help me sleep and boost my mood and productivity. The lucid dreams are just a bonus to be honest.. I haven't had reckless or self destructive thoughts since taking these so I can't comment on this. Everyone is different I guess. I'd post a link or picture of what exactly I'm taking but I don't want people to think that I'm advertising anything..

[xRey]

I'm back just to update you a little on what's been going on. I've been off the pills for a little over a week now. I didn't notice any change in my mood except maybe I feel I'm a little more aggressive. I feel like I'm slightly more easily annoyed by things or other people. But other than that its been going pretty good. Oh and I haven't had a LD since I'm not taking the supplement. But that's fine because I want to try other things now.