Timing control

I've been thinking a lot about timing lately. Just as with comedy and the stock market, timing is an important aspect of LDing. Even if you do everything else correctly, poor timing can prevent you from achieving your intended results. As soon as you take an LD supplement, you've started a clock of sorts. The effects of the supplement will take a certain amount of time to build up to a peak and then will take a different amount of time to diminish to the point where they are negligible.

The effects as a function of time will be different depending on what the supplement is, how your body metabolizes it (which will be different for different people), how full your stomach is, how tired you are, your body weight, how much of the supplement you took, etc. In some cases it'd be better for the effects of a given supplement to be delayed in time, relative to the time you take it. For example, galantamine has a tendency to give me insomnia. If there were a way to delay its effects, I might have a better chance of falling asleep before the effects kicked in. For other supplements, it could be desirable to increase the time interval over which the effects occur. For example, the effects of theanine normally don't last very long, due to its relatively short elimination half life (66 minutes versus 420 minutes for galantamine). If there were a way to extend its effects, that could increase the usefulness of theanine as an LD supplement. In the case of supplements taken for the purpose of helping you get to sleep quickly (e.g., melatonin), it could be helpful to find ways to reduce the time it takes for their effects to kick in.

I created this thread because I have some ideas I'd like to discuss regarding how one might gain better control of timing when using LD supplements. I'd also like to hear any thoughts other people might have on this subject.

Would also be interested in your thoughts on non-supplement-related timing issues relevant to the topic of LDing. For example, how could we figure out what the best amount of time would be to sleep before doing the wake-back-to-bed (WBTB) method.

That's very true and good to keep in mind. Speaking of which, I'd like to get a little more acquainted with when my REM cycles come and go.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's very true and good to keep in mind. Speaking of which, I'd like to get a little more acquainted with when my REM cycles come and go.

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Great point! Do you know of any effective ways to do that? Maybe some kind of sleep monitor that records your brain waves or eye motions?

So far from what I've read, the best method is to pay attention closely to your own sleep cycle. We wake up around the end of each REM cycle every night. We aren't always aware of it, though. My understanding is to try and develop a habit of remembering these periods each night and document them in relation to when you went to sleep or last fell asleep.

It would be awesome to have a machine or device of some kind that could do it for you! I know sleep lab equipment can do so, but I'm not sure what is available and convenient at a consumer level. You bringing that up has made me think, one thing I'm going to try tonight is sleeping with my Fitbit on my wrist - if I can stand it, that is haha (I usually take it off for comfort). It has a tracker which is designed to track your sleep and even tells you how much time you spent in each sleep cycle as well as each time and for how long you awake during the night. Hopefully it's relatively accurate. I'll have to do some research and see.

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Originally Posted by Zthread

Great point! Do you know of any effective ways to do that? Maybe some kind of sleep monitor that records your brain waves or eye motions?

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Sleep by android is a nice app. Tracks your sleep cycle based on your movements and draws a graph. Also has kind of lucid dreaming mode but I can't vouch for it. Works pretty well. They also have a sonar mode if you have that in your phone. I guess you can try that if have android and fitbit as recommended zelcrow if you have it.

Gooluck

I've never heard of that app. It sounds pretty cool so I'm going to download it. Fortunately, I seem to be waking up after each REM cycle the last couple of nights. However, it has been difficult to get back to sleep!

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

So far from what I've read, the best method is to pay attention closely to your own sleep cycle. We wake up around the end of each REM cycle every night. We aren't always aware of it, though. My understanding is to try and develop a habit of remembering these periods each night and document them in relation to when you went to sleep or last fell asleep.

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Seems like a great idea!

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

It would be awesome to have a machine or device of some kind that could do it for you! I know sleep lab equipment can do so, but I'm not sure what is available and convenient at a consumer level. You bringing that up has made me think, one thing I'm going to try tonight is sleeping with my Fitbit on my wrist - if I can stand it, that is haha (I usually take it off for comfort). It has a tracker which is designed to track your sleep and even tells you how much time you spent in each sleep cycle as well as each time and for how long you awake during the night. Hopefully it's relatively accurate. I'll have to do some research and see.

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Could be helpful. Fitbits track your motion. Probably you move more during REM sleep.

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Originally Posted by ZenLD

Sleep by android is a nice app. Tracks your sleep cycle based on your movements and draws a graph. Also has kind of lucid dreaming mode but I can't vouch for it. Works pretty well. They also have a sonar mode if you have that in your phone. I guess you can try that if have android and fitbit as recommended zelcrow if you have it.

Gooluck

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Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.

Here are some ideas I had for reducing the time delay between the time you go to bed (or go back to bed) and the time the effects of a given supplement kick in:

1. Take the supplement a specified amount of time before you go to bed. For example, if a given sleep-inducing supplement takes effect 40 minutes after you take it, and you'd like it to take effect right when you go to bed, you could make that happen simply by taking it 40 minutes before going to bed. Of course, this isn't a great solution in situations (e.g., when doing a short WBTB) where you don't want to stay awake for as long as would be required for the supplement to take effect.
2. Take the supplement transdermally. Because they bypass the digestive system, transdermal supplements generally get into your bloodstream faster than supplements taken orally. Some transdermal supplements that could have useful effects on sleep and/or dreaming are commercially available. For example, there's a transdermal melatonin spray called "Sprayable Sleep" that I've tried, which seems to work well. Another well-known example is nicotine patches. It's also possible to make transdermal versions of certain supplements yourself. I've had some luck making transdermal galantamine by using alcohol to extract the galantamine from galantamine capsules, letting the alcohol evaporate, and then adding propylene glycol as a skin-permeation enhancer. (BTW, it's important not to use galantamine capsules containing any active ingredients other than galantamine. I tried it with GalantaMind, for example, and it didn't work well.)
3. Take the supplement sublingually. Similarly to transdermal supplements, sublingual supplements generally get into your bloodstream faster than supplements taken orally. Some sublingual supplements that could enhance sleeping and/or dreaming are available commercially. For example, you can find sublingual melatonin for sale online. Also, nicotine gum and lozenges are forms of sublingual nicotine. It may also not be too difficult to make sublingual versions of various supplements yourself. I haven't personally yet gotten around to trying that, though.
4. Take the supplement in vapable form. Anything you vape will get into your bloodstream extremely quickly, because it transfers directly from your lungs into your bloodstream. I've found quite a few commercially-available vapable supplement products that I believe could be useful for enhancing sleep and/or dreaming. Haven't yet tried any of them, though. I'll post something on those products in this thread later today.

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with any of the companies that make any of the products I've mentioned in this post.

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Originally Posted by Zthread

Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.

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Sleep as Android is what I use every night to track my sleep quality. It works reasonably well, and it doesn't empty the battery over night.

Here are some examples of vape products that could be used to produce fast-acting sleep-enhancing and/or dream-enhancing effects:

https://nutrovape.com/products/sleep...nt=32919129994

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Nutrovape Sleep is a blend of melatonin, L-Theanine, natural passionflower, and natural chamomile. Take three to five inhalations before bedtime and don’t operate heavy machinery after using Nutrovape Sleep.

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Note that the Nutrovape Sleep is a disposable vaping pen. That's convenient. Wouldn't have to buy any vaping hardware to try it out.

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https://highvoltagevaporz.com/product/lights/
https://highvoltagevaporz.com/product/unplugged/

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Melatonin-Infused Raspeberry-Chai E-Juice sure to enhance a good night’s sleep.

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Melatonin-Infused Mango and Guava Blend E-liquid sure to enhance a good night’s sleep.

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The above melatonin vape juices are available with or without nicotine. I'd probably get them without nicotine. The mango-guava flavored one sounds good.

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Doesn't seem like there are many theanine vape juices available, especially ones that don't contain any active ingredients other than theanine. Here's one I did find:

https://herbalvaporsllc.com/shop/whi.../focus-master/

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Focus Master E-Liquid contains a double strength shot of L-theanine then we add to this a splash of our Tropic “Tangerine” Thunder handspun flavor for a mild hint of sweet.

L-theanine is the active ingredient in green tea that helps with focus, relaxation, and weight loss. It’s amazing stuff which is related to caffeine.

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You can order it without any nicotine, which is good. You have to choose the "PG-to-VG ratio" (i.e., the propylene-glycol-to-vegetable-glycerin ratio). Not being into nicotine vaping, I don't really know what difference that'd make. Guess I could find out online. OK, here's something:

https://vaping360.com/best-e-liquids/vg-vs-pg/

Reading through that webpage, sounds like it wouldn't matter too much. Probably would just go with a 50-50 ratio.

The webpage on the Focus Master E-Liquid doesn't say how much theanine is in it. Then again, these vape-juice websites mostly don't seem to give amounts of ingredients, other than the amount of nicotine and sometimes the PG-to-VG ratio.

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Here's one that has melatonin combined with GABA:

https://voostvapor.com/dream/

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Designed and formulated to support relaxation and sleep state.

INGREDIENTS: Distilled Water, Organic Flavor Extracts, Organic Kosher VG, Proprietary Nutrient Blend: Melatonin, Gamma Aminobutyric Acid (GABA)

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Contains no nicotine. Doesn't say how much melatonin and GABA are in it. Still, might be worth a try.

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Finally, here's one that contains valerian root, as well as something called "SAGE herb":

https://epuffer.com/e-juice-vape-jui...d-vape-liquid/

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Valerian Root Natural Relaxant and Sleep Aid

New Formula with added SAGE herb ( An effective antioxidant, and improves sleep and cognitive function )

People consider vaping simply as a pastime or fun activity. Nevertheless, ePuffer worked hard to introduce more life-changing vape liquid variants. One of these useful variants is the Valerian Root E-liquid. It is a natural relaxant that can aid you in sleeping and removing stress.

The Natural Valerian E-Liquid formula availabe only from EPUFFER.

Valerian is a perennial plant that has been used as an herbal remedy since the time of the Ancient Greeks, who used it to treat digestive problems. The herb grows in damp areas throughout the Americas, Europe and northern Asia. Valerian root has been used for centuries to treat nervous system disorders, and it is commonly used as a sleep aid as well.

As Valerian root ages, it produces a substance known as isovaleric acid. This compound and another acid known as valerenic acid are significant active ingredients that are present in the volatile oils found in Valerian root. These volatile oils are thought to be responsible for Valerian root's ability to relax the central nervous system and promote a good night's sleep.

Does valerian root really work? Double blind studies have shown that Valerian root can decrease the amount of time it takes for people with mild insomnia to fall asleep. Valerian root is also used to treat anxiety disorders and counteract stress. It has a sedative effect that helps to relax the central nervous system and provide a feeling of calmness. In addition to its use as a tranquilizer and sleep aid, many herbalists also recommend Valerian root as a remedy for tension headaches and muscular pain because of its ability to act as a muscle relaxant.

EPUFFER® has been creating eliquid flavors for over 11 years, longer than any other company in Canada and US with quality you can trust. All eliquid Flavors proudly crafted by finest chemists and flavorists in the field using Gluten-Free, Vegan, Kosher, Alcohol-Free, and non-Allergenic raw material.

Features

o High density PET bottle ( Pharma Grade Polyethylene Terephthalate )
o Child proof and Triangle Braille blind Cap dropper bottle
o Shrink wrap tamper proof protection seal
o Batch number and expiry date printed for quality control

E-Liquid Base

o Pharma Grade Propylene Glycol ( PG ) - 50%
o Pharma Grade Vegetable Glycerine ( VG ) - 50%

Flavor Ratio: 10%

Valerian Extract Ratio: 10%

Nicotine Free 0mg - ( 0% per bottle )

100% Traceable Top Grade Ingredients | Lab Tested Diacetyl (DA) & Acetyl Propionyl (AP) Free

Compatible with all brands of: Vape Pods, E-Cigarettes, Vape Pens, Electronic Pipes, Electronic Cigars, RDA, RBA and MODs.

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Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with any of the companies that make any of the products I've mentioned in this post.

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Originally Posted by Zthread

Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.

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Yep that is the one. The one with the green android head sleeping.

Sorry haha xD

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Originally Posted by ZenLD

Yep that is the one. The one with the green android head sleeping.

Sorry haha xD

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OK, thanks! I read more about it in Play Store. Seems pretty sophisticated. The documentation says it tracks your motion with sonar! Any idea how it does that?!

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Originally Posted by Zthread

OK, thanks! I read more about it in Play Store. Seems pretty sophisticated. The documentation says it tracks your motion with sonar! Any idea how it does that?!

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I've been using Sleep as Android for my alarms for a while (I use to have my old Pebble smartwatch synced up to it for sleep tracking, but it doesn't work with my new Fitbit, so I mostly rely on Fitbit's normal sleep tracking).

That sonar feature is fairly new: basically when you go to sleep, place your phone in a position where the speaker and microphone are facing towards you in your bed. The app transmits some high-pitch frequencies that then get bounced off you and back to the microphone - so if you're moving around in bed, it can sense the movement and know that you're awake. In all honesty, I haven't had a ton of success with the sonar feature (partially because my Pixel 2 has the speaker and microphone on the front of the phone, rather than at the base, so positioning them in a way where's it's facing me is difficult), and I prefer the tried-and-true default option of accelerometer tracking (place your phone on your bed within 3 feet of you when you're sleeping, and it will track your phone's movements on the bed).

Like ZenLD mentioned, it also has a lucid dreaming mode where it plays a preset sound or voice saying "You are dreaming" when it detects you're in REM sleep. I tried it once a long time ago and I think the volume of it woke me up, so it mainly just takes some fine-tuning and seeing what works for you. Theoretically it should work pretty much like any other Externally-Induced Lucid Dream (EILD) method.

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Originally Posted by spellbee2

I've been using Sleep as Android for my alarms for a while (I use to have my old Pebble smartwatch synced up to it for sleep tracking, but it doesn't work with my new Fitbit, so I mostly rely on Fitbit's normal sleep tracking).

That sonar feature is fairly new: basically when you go to sleep, place your phone in a position where the speaker and microphone are facing towards you in your bed. The app transmits some high-pitch frequencies that then get bounced off you and back to the microphone - so if you're moving around in bed, it can sense the movement and know that you're awake. In all honesty, I haven't had a ton of success with the sonar feature (partially because my Pixel 2 has the speaker and microphone on the front of the phone, rather than at the base, so positioning them in a way where's it's facing me is difficult), and I prefer the tried-and-true default option of accelerometer tracking (place your phone on your bed within 3 feet of you when you're sleeping, and it will track your phone's movements on the bed).

Like ZenLD mentioned, it also has a lucid dreaming mode where it plays a preset sound or voice saying "You are dreaming" when it detects you're in REM sleep. I tried it once a long time ago and I think the volume of it woke me up, so it mainly just takes some fine-tuning and seeing what works for you. Theoretically it should work pretty much like any other Externally-Induced Lucid Dream (EILD) method.

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OK, sounds like a pretty clever app! Will give it a try.

I'd like to try it too, but I wonder if having a partner you sleep next to would affect the results very much. I had tried playing a recording saying "you are dreaming" that I recorded myself but it would either wake me up or I wouldn't remember hearing it :/

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

I'd like to try it too, but I wonder if having a partner you sleep next to would affect the results very much.

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That does complicate things.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

I had tried playing a recording saying "you are dreaming" that I recorded myself but it would either wake me up or I wouldn't remember hearing it :/

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I've tried that, too, and also had no luck. But, keeping with the theme of this thread, maybe the reason it didn't work had to do with timing. If the recording just repeats over and over again the entire time you're sleeping, your brain will most likely just filter it out. But if the recording were to turn on only, or at least mainly, at times when you were actually dreaming, it could work. That's what this app claims to do, with a voice and/or a vibration. Of course, the voice and/or vibration could wake up your partner. So that's a problem. But you can also get a sleep mask that works with the app. It has LEDs that flash in your eyes whenever the app thinks you're dreaming. That wouldn't wake up your partner, because the LEDs are only on the side of the mask in contact with your face. Here's a link describing the mask:

https://sleepmask.urbandroid.org/

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Made by Urbandroid and Happy Electronics.

Features

• Sunrise alarm: from low red to full yellow, no more annoying alarm sounds
• Light stimulated lullabies for faster fall asleep
• Lucid dreaming: learn to control and remember your dreams
• Anti-snoring
• Comfortable to wear all night

Parameters

• Works with Sleep as Android and Mindroid
• Supports any OTG equipped Android phone or Tablet, Android 3.1+
• Micro USB connector

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Only costs $69. I'll probably get one. Worth a try for that price.

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with the company or companies involved in the development and distribution of this app, nor with the company or companies involved in the development and distribution of the hardware products (e.g., the sleep mask) associated with it.

Hey, thank you for sharing that, Zthread. I'm interested in the LED masks that work with an app. That's pretty cool. The user would have to have enough awareness to recognize the flashing as a cue for lucidity or it would be rationalized into the dream I imagine. The price doesn't seem so bad either.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

Hey, thank you for sharing that, Zthread. I'm interested in the LED masks that work with an app. That's pretty cool. The user would have to have enough awareness to recognize the flashing as a cue for lucidity or it would be rationalized into the dream I imagine. The price doesn't seem so bad either.

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I'm going to see what the app can do by itself before getting the mask. If it works without the mask, might not bother getting the mask.

Also wanted to point out that the app, with or without the mask, could have synergistic effects with LD supplements (e.g., galantamine, choline, theanine, and nicotine).

In a previous post on this thread, I discussed methods for reducing the amount of time it takes for LD supplements kick in. But what if you want to delay the effects by a certain amount of time?

The answer is just two words: enteric capsules! :cool:

(If you've never heard of them, look them up online. You'll thank me later!)

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Originally Posted by Zthread

The answer is just two words: enteric capsules! :cool:

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Enteric capsules are delayed-release capsules! You can buy them as empty capsules. They allow you to increase the amount of time after you take them that the LD supplements take effect by half an hour or more, compared with regular capsules. I've found that the ability to control the time delay in that manner has dramatically improved my LDing.

The main stumbling block I've always had with LD supplements--especially galantamine and choline--is that they often give me insomnia. And it's gotten way worse as I've gotten older. I'm probably not alone in having this issue. When I take the insomnia-causing LD supplements in delayed-release capsules, the problem goes away completely, because I'm already asleep by the time the supplements take effect!

Also, I almost always take galantamine and choline with theanine, because it helps me sleep and stabilizes my LDs. What I've been doing lately is to take some of the theanine in a regular capsule and the rest in a delayed-release capsule. That way, the theanine in the regular capsule kicks in fairly quickly to help me get to sleep. The theanine in the delayed-release capsule, on the other hand, kicks in later to help me stay asleep and stabilize my LDs.

That's interesting to know. I still haven't tried any supplements except for melatonin one time. It made me feel odd and I couldn't sleep after taking it. Do you just transfer the contents of one pill to an enteric capsule?

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's interesting to know. I still haven't tried any supplements except for melatonin one time. It made me feel odd and I couldn't sleep after taking it.

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That can happen if you take too much. If you try it again, maybe just take half or a fourth of what you took before.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

Do you just transfer the contents of one pill to an enteric capsule?

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Yes. Isn't difficult to do. If it's in tablet form, you might have to chop it up first to get it to fit inside the enteric capsule. If you have supplements in regular capsules that are smaller than your enteric capsules, you might just be able to put each regular capsule inside an enteric capsule. Size-0 capsules, for example, will fit inside size-00 capsules.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

Sleep as Android is what I use every night to track my sleep quality. It works reasonably well, and it doesn't empty the battery over night.

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Tried the Sleep as Android app for the first time last night. Set it up with sonar to monitor my sleep stages and detect dreaming. Also had the snoring-prevention and LD-induction features on. The LD-induction feature only got activated once, about 4 hours after I went to bed. Activation of the LD feature caused the phone to start vibrating and to say "You are dreaming" a few times. Unfortunately it woke me up, rather than inducing an LD. I think next time I'll turn off the vibration for that feature.

A more interesting thing that happened is that the app seemed to alter my dreaming quite a bit. I think it was because it kept making a random clicking sound, kind of like a Geiger-counter sound. The clicking sound probably happened about 5-10 times per minute on average. It didn't keep me from going to sleep, but I think it affected my sleep and dreaming. It seemed to make me sleep more lightly. Not sure if the clicking is a feature or a bug. Anyway, it seemed to make my dreams really strange. It also gave me an incredibly scary nightmare that woke me up. Don't remember it well. I think it was something like a really creepy looking monster. I almost never have nightmares, at least not such scary ones.

Since the app made me sleep more lightly, it might be good to use it in combination with LD supps. Could make it more likely to get lucid or maybe make the LDs last longer. Also might make my LDs more bizarre, which could be interesting.

That's pretty interesting that the clicking had an effect on your sleep. I wonder if it was a cause for the nightmare. I would probably do without the vibrating feature as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes for you.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's pretty interesting that the clicking had an effect on your sleep. I wonder if it was a cause for the nightmare. I would probably do without the vibrating feature as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes for you.

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I wonder the same thing about the nightmare. I'm also looking forward to seeing if I can repeat the effect of the clicking on my sleeping and dreaming. Probably will try it again tonight.

Good luck! I downloaded the app tonight. Monday-Friday I'll be home alone so I'm thinking I'll see how the app can aid in LDing too. I started taking my B vitamins a few hours before bed so hopefully that'll help too. I'll write back if I also get the clicking.

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Originally Posted by Zthread

I wonder the same thing about the nightmare. I'm also looking forward to seeing if I can repeat the effect of the clicking on my sleeping and dreaming. Probably will try it again tonight.

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Great! Let me know what happens!

I tried it again night before last, but nothing unusual happened. Might've been because I was extremely tired, though.

On a related topic, I have been having some amazing results with oral supplements in the delayed-release capsules, though. Best LDs I've had in years! Long and stable, with great recall. Here's an example that's typical of what I've been taking after first sleeping 4 or 5 hours:

Two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 8 mg of galantamine (i.e., the contents of two 4-mg GalantaMind capsules), two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 650 mg of choline bitartrate, a regular (i.e., non-delayed-release) capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, a delayed-release capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, and a delayed-release capsule within a capsule (CWAC) containing 50 mg of theanine. In addition, I bit into a piece of nicotine gum a couple of times, and then kept it between my cheek and gums the whole time I was asleep. (A nicotine patch would probably have worked just as well, if not better.)

For sure! Last night I actually fell asleep while meditating and I hadn't finished setting up the lucid dreaming option. I tried to set my own voice recording telling myself that I'm dreaming, but an error kept occurring and wouldn't let me load that audio file. Maybe it isn't compatible with .wav files. I'll try converting it to an mp3.

That's pretty neat that you're getting some results from the supplements. Are you basing your supplement regimen off of Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements?

I just finished Charlie Morley's Lucid Dreaming . In it he mentions that vitamin B6, calcium, and magnesium can help with LDs. I'll be trying those tonight. Hopefully the calcium and magnesium will help with sleep.

Where do you get your Galantamind from? I've read that it is good to be picky with where you purchase because some of it is unregulated.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

For sure! Last night I actually fell asleep while meditating and I hadn't finished setting up the lucid dreaming option. I tried to set my own voice recording telling myself that I'm dreaming, but an error kept occurring and wouldn't let me load that audio file. Maybe it isn't compatible with .wav files. I'll try converting it to an mp3.

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Too bad. Hope the mp3 works better!

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's pretty neat that you're getting some results from the supplements. Are you basing your supplement regimen off of Thomas Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements?

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It's mainly based on that, but Yuschak apparently wasn't aware of the availability of empty delayed-release capsules when he wrote it. I've found that the effectiveness of the supplement combinations discussed by Yuschak can be greatly increased by using delayed-release capsules to control the timing of when the different supplements kick in. One major improvement is that it gives you a way to delay the effects of the insomnia-inducing supplements (especially the galantamine) until you're already asleep. So you're a lot less likely to get insomnia.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

I just finished Charlie Morley's Lucid Dreaming . In it he mentions that vitamin B6, calcium, and magnesium can help with LDs. I'll be trying those tonight. Hopefully the calcium and magnesium will help with sleep.

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Haven't read that book. What do you think of it in general?

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

Where do you get your Galantamind from? I've read that it is good to be picky with where you purchase because some of it is unregulated.

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I usually order galantamine from Amazon.com. The GalantaMind brand always works well, but I also have some from Element Nutraceuticals that works just as well.

The .mp3 is now working thankfully so I'll set it for tonight!

I can't say that I had ever thought of using the enteric capsules before you wrote about combining them with the supplements here. Good job for of that! It could be really useful for others as well, and it's something I'll be considering if I end up getting into the supplement realm more.

I enjoyed Morley's book. It was fairly short but packed with a lot of good information. It brings up a lot of the usual things like techniques and state testing. He mentioned FAC for falling asleep consciously and his WEIRD technique which is essentially noticing anything odd throughout the day and doing an RC at that time. Things in the book that aren't in most other LD books I've read (I've read seven or eight at this point) are his writing about supplements a bit and then some history of LDing I hadn't found elsewhere.

And thank you for the references. I'm going to look it up and check the prices and all.

How long have you been LDing for? And out of that time how long have you been working with supplements? Also, how have the supplements changed your experience with LDing?

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

The .mp3 is now working thankfully so I'll set it for tonight!

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Good luck!

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I can't say that I had ever thought of using the enteric capsules before you wrote about combining them with the supplements here. Good job for of that! It could be really useful for others as well, and it's something I'll be considering if I end up getting into the supplement realm more.

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Great! Yes, I'm excited about it! Trying to get more people interested in it.

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I enjoyed Morley's book. It was fairly short but packed with a lot of good information. It brings up a lot of the usual things like techniques and state testing. He mentioned FAC for falling asleep consciously and his WEIRD technique which is essentially noticing anything odd throughout the day and doing an RC at that time. Things in the book that aren't in most other LD books I've read (I've read seven or eight at this point) are his writing about supplements a bit and then some history of LDing I hadn't found elsewhere.

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Just looked at the description of the book on Amazon. Does look good. What's the basic idea of the FAC method?

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And thank you for the references. I'm going to look it up and check the prices and all.

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Sounds good!

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How long have you been LDing for?

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Not sure, but probably at least 25 years.

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And out of that time how long have you been working with supplements?

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Again, not sure, but maybe 10-15 years.

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Also, how have the supplements changed your experience with LDing?

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When they work properly, they're amazing! They can definitely allow you to have a lot more LDs. More importantly, they can make your LDs much longer, more stable, and more vivid, as well as improve your ability to think logically during LDs.

But from the start, I've always had trouble with the supplements giving me insomnia. And as the years went by, that problem got worse. So, except for the past half year or so, I haven't used them much at all for the past 5-10 years. Because insomnia isn't fun or healthy at all.

Then late last year I decided to see if I could come up with new strategies that would allow me to use LD supplements effectively without getting insomnia. At some point I was talking to someone on another LD forum (Deep Dreaming) about the issue. He mentioned the possibility of using extended-release LD supplements. Unfortunately, they didn't exist, as far as I could tell.

However, the guy's comment made me think that there might be such a thing as empty delayed-release capsules that could be filled with whatever supplements you wanted to fill them with. After some quick online searches, I discovered that such capsules do, in fact, exist, and that they're available from many different sources (e.g., Amazon.com). As I mentioned previously, they're called enteric capsules. I've been experimenting with them ever since. At this point I'm pretty much convinced I've solved my problem with LD-supplement-induced insomnia. The LDs I've been inducing using supplements in delayed-release capsules are the best I've had in many years, possibly ever!

So how long have you been into LDing? Seems like you just got into it fairly recently. What got you interested in it?

Morely describes the FAC technique as being like WILD but with "a few of his own methods" and meditative awareness. He then has three different methods to get to the lucid dream state. One is to go through hypnagogic drop-in. The next he writes is for if you have good body awareness perhaps through dance, bodywork, or yoga. This one reminds me of SSILD except you never lose consciousness. And lastly, for FAC he writes of a counting technique where once you enter the hypnagogic state you start anchoring your awareness by counting One: I'm lucid? Two: I'm lucid? etc. I tried to be as short as possible in writing that. Hopefully I gave enough information.

And that's quite a while!

That's great that you've found a way to increase the efficacy of the supplements. Do you use them each time you attempt to LD, or do you limit how often you use supplements? I remember in Yuschak's book he talks about the half-life of supplements and suggests limitations as far as frequency.

I started practicing about six months ago with a few months of hiatus due to work circumstances. I'm hoping to stay into it more consistently this time. I've had a passive interest for years ever since I had a couple of LDs as a young teenager. I wish I had started pursuing it then. The second one I had was a result of autosuggestion, I think.

How did you get into and get you start with LDing?

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

Morely describes the FAC technique as being like WILD but with "a few of his own methods" and meditative awareness. He then has three different methods to get to the lucid dream state. One is to go through hypnagogic drop-in. The next he writes is for if you have good body awareness perhaps through dance, bodywork, or yoga. This one reminds me of SSILD except you never lose consciousness. And lastly, for FAC he writes of a counting technique where once you enter the hypnagogic state you start anchoring your awareness by counting One: I'm lucid? Two: I'm lucid? etc. I tried to be as short as possible in writing that. Hopefully I gave enough information.

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It sounds like a good book. I'm interested in WILDing. Never have been able to do it, though. I also really like hypnagogia.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

And that's quite a while!

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Yes, I suppose it is!

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

That's great that you've found a way to increase the efficacy of the supplements. Do you use them each time you attempt to LD, or do you limit how often you use supplements? I remember in Yuschak's book he talks about the half-life of supplements and suggests limitations as far as frequency.

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It's pretty much the only method of having LDs that I'm doing these days. I also sometimes have spontaneous LDs, but they're usually very brief, unfortunately. I'm limiting the LD supplements to no more than once a week to try to minimize desensitization. I really should try some other techniques at some point. Especially techniques for WILDs.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

I started practicing about six months ago with a few months of hiatus due to work circumstances. I'm hoping to stay into it more consistently this time. I've had a passive interest for years ever since I had a couple of LDs as a young teenager. I wish I had started pursuing it then. The second one I had was a result of autosuggestion, I think.

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It's an exciting and worthwhile thing to do. It's really an exploration of your conscious and subconscious mind.

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Originally Posted by zelcrow

How did you get into and get you start with LDing?

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Sometime around the mid to late 90's something made me think about a nightmare I had when I was a little kid. I was running away from a large bee that was trying to sting me. Suddenly I realized I was dreaming. I stopped running and told the bee to go ahead and sting me. Instead of doing that, it just flew away. Thinking about this dream as an adult (i.e., in the 90's), it occurred to me that it's pretty amazing to have a dream in which you know you're dreaming. I hadn't even heard of the term "lucid dream," but I soon came across it when I started researching the concept. I found a few articles about LD-induction masks and a few other induction techniques. I never got a mask, but tried some of the techniques. Didn't have much, if any luck, but I really didn't try very hard. I got more serious about it in the early 2000's. Found some LD forums that had lots of good information. I mainly liked Mortal Mist back then. (It still exists, but is kind of like a ghost town. Almost no one uses it anymore. It also gets lots of spam messages that the people running it don't have the time or interest to delete. Kind of sad.) Anyway, I got lots of good advice from these forums and started having more LDs. I eventually found that LD supplements seemed to be the best method for me. However, the more I used them, the more issues I started to have with insomnia. So I gradually stopped using them. Still had occasional LDs, but a lot fewer of them. But now this new delayed-release thing seems to have solved that problem!

Hi Zthread. Been a long time since I've posted on DV, but your post caught my interest. Being 66, I believe that I am in your age bracket. I have not actively tried to LD in close to a year, but my interest is again growing. Of my 15 or so LD's in the past, all but 2 were accomplished using galantamine and choline. I find it interesting that you have primarily DILDs while using that combination. All of mine were WILDs while using G and C. My two non suppliment LD's were both DILDs and took a long time and a lot of work to accomplish. I take it that the capsules you use release the total dosage at one time, just delayed so it can happen while you're asleep? I may try the delayed capsule route and see if it works to help me with DILDs. Because I have trouble getting back to sleep after more than a few minutes of WBTB, this might be an easier way for me to get back to LDing. By the way, my WILDing took way to long (about 45-60 min) to accomplish an LD and was very disruptive to my sleep which I value highly.

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Originally Posted by pdunc

Hi Zthread. Been a long time since I've posted on DV, but your post caught my interest. Being 66, I believe that I am in your age bracket.

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Yes, I'll be 64 next month.

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I have not actively tried to LD in close to a year, but my interest is again growing. Of my 15 or so LD's in the past, all but 2 were accomplished using galantamine and choline. I find it interesting that you have primarily DILDs while using that combination. All of mine were WILDs while using G and C.

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That is interesting! Could be that my brain is wired differently than yours. Or, maybe it's that you use the LD supplements in a different manner than I do. Maybe you take them at different points in the sleep cycle, use different dose levels, etc.

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My two non suppliment LD's were both DILDs and took a long time and a lot of work to accomplish.

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Briefly, what basic method(s) did you use?

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I take it that the capsules you use release the total dosage at one time, just delayed so it can happen while you're asleep?

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Yes, that's exactly what those capsules do. What I've been doing thus far is to take my usual dose of galantamine and choline bitartrate in delayed-release capsules, because those are the supplements that make it hard for me to get to sleep. (Galantamine does, anyway. Not completely sure about choline, because I've never taken it by itself.) I also use theanine. For that I usually put some (e.g., 100 mg) in a regular capsule and some (e.g., 50 mg) in a delayed-release capsule. The theanine in the regular capsule helps me relax, so I can get to sleep, while the delayed-release capsule extends the total duration of the effects of the theanine, which makes my LDs more stable. I also usually use a piece of nicotine gum, which I bite a couple of times and then leave in my mouth, to provide a slow trickle of nicotine. A small piece of a nicotine patch on my arm probably would work just as well or better.

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I may try the delayed capsule route and see if it works to help me with DILDs. Because I have trouble getting back to sleep after more than a few minutes of WBTB, this might be an easier way for me to get back to LDing.

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Great! Would be really interested in hearing how it works for you, if you try it. Sounds like you're a perfect candidate for it, since you have trouble getting back to sleep after just a few minutes of WBTB.

I should mention that it might not work very well the first few times, so don't get discouraged if it doesn't. I often get insomnia the first few times I try any new technique, because I'm excited about trying the new technique and that makes it hard to get to sleep.

You may also have to play around with the dose levels a bit until you find something that works for you. Also, I don't recommend trying it more often than maybe once every 4 days, to prevent desensitization. To be extra safe, I don't do it any more often than once a week.

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By the way, my WILDing took way to long (about 45-60 min) to accomplish an LD and was very disruptive to my sleep which I value highly.

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So you're saying you lost about 45-60 min of sleep each night that you did your WILDing? That's not pleasant. I also highly value my sleep!

When the delayed-release LD supplements work properly, they at least shouldn't give you insomnia. However, I've found that the quality of my sleep when I take these supplements seems to not be as good as when I don't take them. That makes sense, because LD supplements wake up your brain more than it normally is when you're asleep. So I usually feel a bit tired the next day. That's another reason not to do this too often. Sleep deprivation isn't healthy.

Also, pdunc, here's a specific example of what I take sometimes at WBTB:

Two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 8 mg of galantamine (i.e., the contents of two 4-mg GalantaMind capsules), two delayed-release capsules containing a total of 650 mg of choline bitartrate, a regular (i.e., non-delayed-release) capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, a delayed-release capsule containing 75 mg of theanine, and a delayed-release capsule within a capsule (CWAC) containing 50 mg of theanine. In addition, I bite into a piece of nicotine gum a couple of times, and then keep it between my cheek and gums the whole time I'm asleep.

This seems to work well for me, but you might need to adjust it a bit to get it to work for you. (I posted this example previously in this thread, but I think it's worth repeating.) I usually sleep for 4 to 5 hours before taking the above supplements. After taking them, I go right back to bed. For me, anyway, there's no need to stay awake for awhile at WBTB to get it to work better.

The CWAC is just a size-0 delayed-release capsule inside of a size-00 delayed-release capsule. Based on my experience, a single delayed-release capsule provides about 30 minutes of delay before the effects of a given supplement kick in, relative to when they would kick in using a regular capsule. A CWAC provides about twice as much delay as a single delayed-release capsule (i.e., 60 minutes of delay).

I should also mention that I've only been experimenting with delayed-release capsules for a few months now. I'm sure there's still a lot to learn about how to best use them. If you get into this and find something different from what I'm doing that works well for you, I hope you'll let me know!