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    Thread: Timing control

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      Lightbulb Timing control

      I've been thinking a lot about timing lately. Just as with comedy and the stock market, timing is an important aspect of LDing. Even if you do everything else correctly, poor timing can prevent you from achieving your intended results. As soon as you take an LD supplement, you've started a clock of sorts. The effects of the supplement will take a certain amount of time to build up to a peak and then will take a different amount of time to diminish to the point where they are negligible.

      The effects as a function of time will be different depending on what the supplement is, how your body metabolizes it (which will be different for different people), how full your stomach is, how tired you are, your body weight, how much of the supplement you took, etc. In some cases it'd be better for the effects of a given supplement to be delayed in time, relative to the time you take it. For example, galantamine has a tendency to give me insomnia. If there were a way to delay its effects, I might have a better chance of falling asleep before the effects kicked in. For other supplements, it could be desirable to increase the time interval over which the effects occur. For example, the effects of theanine normally don't last very long, due to its relatively short elimination half life (66 minutes versus 420 minutes for galantamine). If there were a way to extend its effects, that could increase the usefulness of theanine as an LD supplement. In the case of supplements taken for the purpose of helping you get to sleep quickly (e.g., melatonin), it could be helpful to find ways to reduce the time it takes for their effects to kick in.

      I created this thread because I have some ideas I'd like to discuss regarding how one might gain better control of timing when using LD supplements. I'd also like to hear any thoughts other people might have on this subject.

      Would also be interested in your thoughts on non-supplement-related timing issues relevant to the topic of LDing. For example, how could we figure out what the best amount of time would be to sleep before doing the wake-back-to-bed (WBTB) method.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-02-2019 at 07:16 PM.
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      That's very true and good to keep in mind. Speaking of which, I'd like to get a little more acquainted with when my REM cycles come and go.
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      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      That's very true and good to keep in mind. Speaking of which, I'd like to get a little more acquainted with when my REM cycles come and go.
      Great point! Do you know of any effective ways to do that? Maybe some kind of sleep monitor that records your brain waves or eye motions?
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      So far from what I've read, the best method is to pay attention closely to your own sleep cycle. We wake up around the end of each REM cycle every night. We aren't always aware of it, though. My understanding is to try and develop a habit of remembering these periods each night and document them in relation to when you went to sleep or last fell asleep.

      It would be awesome to have a machine or device of some kind that could do it for you! I know sleep lab equipment can do so, but I'm not sure what is available and convenient at a consumer level. You bringing that up has made me think, one thing I'm going to try tonight is sleeping with my Fitbit on my wrist - if I can stand it, that is haha (I usually take it off for comfort). It has a tracker which is designed to track your sleep and even tells you how much time you spent in each sleep cycle as well as each time and for how long you awake during the night. Hopefully it's relatively accurate. I'll have to do some research and see.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Great point! Do you know of any effective ways to do that? Maybe some kind of sleep monitor that records your brain waves or eye motions?
      Sleep by android is a nice app. Tracks your sleep cycle based on your movements and draws a graph. Also has kind of lucid dreaming mode but I can't vouch for it. Works pretty well. They also have a sonar mode if you have that in your phone. I guess you can try that if have android and fitbit as recommended zelcrow if you have it.

      Gooluck
      Last edited by ZenLD; 07-02-2019 at 04:51 PM.
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      I've never heard of that app. It sounds pretty cool so I'm going to download it. Fortunately, I seem to be waking up after each REM cycle the last couple of nights. However, it has been difficult to get back to sleep!
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      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      So far from what I've read, the best method is to pay attention closely to your own sleep cycle. We wake up around the end of each REM cycle every night. We aren't always aware of it, though. My understanding is to try and develop a habit of remembering these periods each night and document them in relation to when you went to sleep or last fell asleep.
      Seems like a great idea!

      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      It would be awesome to have a machine or device of some kind that could do it for you! I know sleep lab equipment can do so, but I'm not sure what is available and convenient at a consumer level. You bringing that up has made me think, one thing I'm going to try tonight is sleeping with my Fitbit on my wrist - if I can stand it, that is haha (I usually take it off for comfort). It has a tracker which is designed to track your sleep and even tells you how much time you spent in each sleep cycle as well as each time and for how long you awake during the night. Hopefully it's relatively accurate. I'll have to do some research and see.
      Could be helpful. Fitbits track your motion. Probably you move more during REM sleep.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ZenLD View Post
      Sleep by android is a nice app. Tracks your sleep cycle based on your movements and draws a graph. Also has kind of lucid dreaming mode but I can't vouch for it. Works pretty well. They also have a sonar mode if you have that in your phone. I guess you can try that if have android and fitbit as recommended zelcrow if you have it.

      Gooluck
      Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-02-2019 at 07:17 PM.

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      Here are some ideas I had for reducing the time delay between the time you go to bed (or go back to bed) and the time the effects of a given supplement kick in:

      1. Take the supplement a specified amount of time before you go to bed. For example, if a given sleep-inducing supplement takes effect 40 minutes after you take it, and you'd like it to take effect right when you go to bed, you could make that happen simply by taking it 40 minutes before going to bed. Of course, this isn't a great solution in situations (e.g., when doing a short WBTB) where you don't want to stay awake for as long as would be required for the supplement to take effect.
      2. Take the supplement transdermally. Because they bypass the digestive system, transdermal supplements generally get into your bloodstream faster than supplements taken orally. Some transdermal supplements that could have useful effects on sleep and/or dreaming are commercially available. For example, there's a transdermal melatonin spray called "Sprayable Sleep" that I've tried, which seems to work well. Another well-known example is nicotine patches. It's also possible to make transdermal versions of certain supplements yourself. I've had some luck making transdermal galantamine by using alcohol to extract the galantamine from galantamine capsules, letting the alcohol evaporate, and then adding propylene glycol as a skin-permeation enhancer. (BTW, it's important not to use galantamine capsules containing any active ingredients other than galantamine. I tried it with GalantaMind, for example, and it didn't work well.)
      3. Take the supplement sublingually. Similarly to transdermal supplements, sublingual supplements generally get into your bloodstream faster than supplements taken orally. Some sublingual supplements that could enhance sleeping and/or dreaming are available commercially. For example, you can find sublingual melatonin for sale online. Also, nicotine gum and lozenges are forms of sublingual nicotine. It may also not be too difficult to make sublingual versions of various supplements yourself. I haven't personally yet gotten around to trying that, though.
      4. Take the supplement in vapable form. Anything you vape will get into your bloodstream extremely quickly, because it transfers directly from your lungs into your bloodstream. I've found quite a few commercially-available vapable supplement products that I believe could be useful for enhancing sleep and/or dreaming. Haven't yet tried any of them, though. I'll post something on those products in this thread later today.

      Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with any of the companies that make any of the products I've mentioned in this post.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-03-2019 at 12:17 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.
      Sleep as Android is what I use every night to track my sleep quality. It works reasonably well, and it doesn't empty the battery over night.
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      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      Here are some examples of vape products that could be used to produce fast-acting sleep-enhancing and/or dream-enhancing effects:

      https://nutrovape.com/products/sleep...nt=32919129994

      Nutrovape Sleep is a blend of melatonin, L-Theanine, natural passionflower, and natural chamomile. Take three to five inhalations before bedtime and don’t operate heavy machinery after using Nutrovape Sleep.
      Note that the Nutrovape Sleep is a disposable vaping pen. That's convenient. Wouldn't have to buy any vaping hardware to try it out.

      ----------

      https://highvoltagevaporz.com/product/lights/
      https://highvoltagevaporz.com/product/unplugged/

      Melatonin-Infused Raspeberry-Chai E-Juice sure to enhance a good night’s sleep.
      Melatonin-Infused Mango and Guava Blend E-liquid sure to enhance a good night’s sleep.
      The above melatonin vape juices are available with or without nicotine. I'd probably get them without nicotine. The mango-guava flavored one sounds good.

      ----------

      Doesn't seem like there are many theanine vape juices available, especially ones that don't contain any active ingredients other than theanine. Here's one I did find:

      https://herbalvaporsllc.com/shop/whi.../focus-master/

      Focus Master E-Liquid contains a double strength shot of L-theanine then we add to this a splash of our Tropic “Tangerine” Thunder handspun flavor for a mild hint of sweet.

      L-theanine is the active ingredient in green tea that helps with focus, relaxation, and weight loss. It’s amazing stuff which is related to caffeine.
      You can order it without any nicotine, which is good. You have to choose the "PG-to-VG ratio" (i.e., the propylene-glycol-to-vegetable-glycerin ratio). Not being into nicotine vaping, I don't really know what difference that'd make. Guess I could find out online. OK, here's something:

      https://vaping360.com/best-e-liquids/vg-vs-pg/

      Reading through that webpage, sounds like it wouldn't matter too much. Probably would just go with a 50-50 ratio.

      The webpage on the Focus Master E-Liquid doesn't say how much theanine is in it. Then again, these vape-juice websites mostly don't seem to give amounts of ingredients, other than the amount of nicotine and sometimes the PG-to-VG ratio.

      ----------

      Here's one that has melatonin combined with GABA:

      https://voostvapor.com/dream/

      Designed and formulated to support relaxation and sleep state.

      INGREDIENTS: Distilled Water, Organic Flavor Extracts, Organic Kosher VG, Proprietary Nutrient Blend: Melatonin, Gamma Aminobutyric Acid (GABA)
      Contains no nicotine. Doesn't say how much melatonin and GABA are in it. Still, might be worth a try.

      ----------

      Finally, here's one that contains valerian root, as well as something called "SAGE herb":

      https://epuffer.com/e-juice-vape-jui...d-vape-liquid/

      Valerian Root Natural Relaxant and Sleep Aid

      New Formula with added SAGE herb ( An effective antioxidant, and improves sleep and cognitive function )

      People consider vaping simply as a pastime or fun activity. Nevertheless, ePuffer worked hard to introduce more life-changing vape liquid variants. One of these useful variants is the Valerian Root E-liquid. It is a natural relaxant that can aid you in sleeping and removing stress.

      The Natural Valerian E-Liquid formula availabe only from EPUFFER.

      Valerian is a perennial plant that has been used as an herbal remedy since the time of the Ancient Greeks, who used it to treat digestive problems. The herb grows in damp areas throughout the Americas, Europe and northern Asia. Valerian root has been used for centuries to treat nervous system disorders, and it is commonly used as a sleep aid as well.

      As Valerian root ages, it produces a substance known as isovaleric acid. This compound and another acid known as valerenic acid are significant active ingredients that are present in the volatile oils found in Valerian root. These volatile oils are thought to be responsible for Valerian root's ability to relax the central nervous system and promote a good night's sleep.

      Does valerian root really work? Double blind studies have shown that Valerian root can decrease the amount of time it takes for people with mild insomnia to fall asleep. Valerian root is also used to treat anxiety disorders and counteract stress. It has a sedative effect that helps to relax the central nervous system and provide a feeling of calmness. In addition to its use as a tranquilizer and sleep aid, many herbalists also recommend Valerian root as a remedy for tension headaches and muscular pain because of its ability to act as a muscle relaxant.

      EPUFFERŽ has been creating eliquid flavors for over 11 years, longer than any other company in Canada and US with quality you can trust. All eliquid Flavors proudly crafted by finest chemists and flavorists in the field using Gluten-Free, Vegan, Kosher, Alcohol-Free, and non-Allergenic raw material.

      Features

      o High density PET bottle ( Pharma Grade Polyethylene Terephthalate )
      o Child proof and Triangle Braille blind Cap dropper bottle
      o Shrink wrap tamper proof protection seal
      o Batch number and expiry date printed for quality control

      E-Liquid Base

      o Pharma Grade Propylene Glycol ( PG ) - 50%
      o Pharma Grade Vegetable Glycerine ( VG ) - 50%

      Flavor Ratio: 10%

      Valerian Extract Ratio: 10%

      Nicotine Free 0mg - ( 0% per bottle )

      100% Traceable Top Grade Ingredients | Lab Tested Diacetyl (DA) & Acetyl Propionyl (AP) Free

      Compatible with all brands of: Vape Pods, E-Cigarettes, Vape Pens, Electronic Pipes, Electronic Cigars, RDA, RBA and MODs.
      Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with any of the companies that make any of the products I've mentioned in this post.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-03-2019 at 12:27 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      Hmmm.... Can't seem to find that specific app. Seeing a huge number of sleep apps in the Play Store. Do you have the exact name of the app, by any chance? Is it "Sleep as Android"? Found an app called that.
      Yep that is the one. The one with the green android head sleeping.

      Sorry haha xD
      Last edited by ZenLD; 07-03-2019 at 02:48 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZenLD View Post
      Yep that is the one. The one with the green android head sleeping.

      Sorry haha xD
      OK, thanks! I read more about it in Play Store. Seems pretty sophisticated. The documentation says it tracks your motion with sonar! Any idea how it does that?!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      OK, thanks! I read more about it in Play Store. Seems pretty sophisticated. The documentation says it tracks your motion with sonar! Any idea how it does that?!
      I've been using Sleep as Android for my alarms for a while (I use to have my old Pebble smartwatch synced up to it for sleep tracking, but it doesn't work with my new Fitbit, so I mostly rely on Fitbit's normal sleep tracking).

      That sonar feature is fairly new: basically when you go to sleep, place your phone in a position where the speaker and microphone are facing towards you in your bed. The app transmits some high-pitch frequencies that then get bounced off you and back to the microphone - so if you're moving around in bed, it can sense the movement and know that you're awake. In all honesty, I haven't had a ton of success with the sonar feature (partially because my Pixel 2 has the speaker and microphone on the front of the phone, rather than at the base, so positioning them in a way where's it's facing me is difficult), and I prefer the tried-and-true default option of accelerometer tracking (place your phone on your bed within 3 feet of you when you're sleeping, and it will track your phone's movements on the bed).

      Like ZenLD mentioned, it also has a lucid dreaming mode where it plays a preset sound or voice saying "You are dreaming" when it detects you're in REM sleep. I tried it once a long time ago and I think the volume of it woke me up, so it mainly just takes some fine-tuning and seeing what works for you. Theoretically it should work pretty much like any other Externally-Induced Lucid Dream (EILD) method.
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      Quote Originally Posted by spellbee2 View Post
      I've been using Sleep as Android for my alarms for a while (I use to have my old Pebble smartwatch synced up to it for sleep tracking, but it doesn't work with my new Fitbit, so I mostly rely on Fitbit's normal sleep tracking).

      That sonar feature is fairly new: basically when you go to sleep, place your phone in a position where the speaker and microphone are facing towards you in your bed. The app transmits some high-pitch frequencies that then get bounced off you and back to the microphone - so if you're moving around in bed, it can sense the movement and know that you're awake. In all honesty, I haven't had a ton of success with the sonar feature (partially because my Pixel 2 has the speaker and microphone on the front of the phone, rather than at the base, so positioning them in a way where's it's facing me is difficult), and I prefer the tried-and-true default option of accelerometer tracking (place your phone on your bed within 3 feet of you when you're sleeping, and it will track your phone's movements on the bed).

      Like ZenLD mentioned, it also has a lucid dreaming mode where it plays a preset sound or voice saying "You are dreaming" when it detects you're in REM sleep. I tried it once a long time ago and I think the volume of it woke me up, so it mainly just takes some fine-tuning and seeing what works for you. Theoretically it should work pretty much like any other Externally-Induced Lucid Dream (EILD) method.
      OK, sounds like a pretty clever app! Will give it a try.

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      I'd like to try it too, but I wonder if having a partner you sleep next to would affect the results very much. I had tried playing a recording saying "you are dreaming" that I recorded myself but it would either wake me up or I wouldn't remember hearing it :/
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      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      I'd like to try it too, but I wonder if having a partner you sleep next to would affect the results very much.
      That does complicate things.

      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      I had tried playing a recording saying "you are dreaming" that I recorded myself but it would either wake me up or I wouldn't remember hearing it :/
      I've tried that, too, and also had no luck. But, keeping with the theme of this thread, maybe the reason it didn't work had to do with timing. If the recording just repeats over and over again the entire time you're sleeping, your brain will most likely just filter it out. But if the recording were to turn on only, or at least mainly, at times when you were actually dreaming, it could work. That's what this app claims to do, with a voice and/or a vibration. Of course, the voice and/or vibration could wake up your partner. So that's a problem. But you can also get a sleep mask that works with the app. It has LEDs that flash in your eyes whenever the app thinks you're dreaming. That wouldn't wake up your partner, because the LEDs are only on the side of the mask in contact with your face. Here's a link describing the mask:

      https://sleepmask.urbandroid.org/

      Made by Urbandroid and Happy Electronics.

      Features
      • Sunrise alarm: from low red to full yellow, no more annoying alarm sounds
      • Light stimulated lullabies for faster fall asleep
      • Lucid dreaming: learn to control and remember your dreams
      • Anti-snoring
      • Comfortable to wear all night

      Parameters
      • Works with Sleep as Android and Mindroid
      • Supports any OTG equipped Android phone or Tablet, Android 3.1+
      • Micro USB connector
      Only costs $69. I'll probably get one. Worth a try for that price.

      Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way with the company or companies involved in the development and distribution of this app, nor with the company or companies involved in the development and distribution of the hardware products (e.g., the sleep mask) associated with it.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-03-2019 at 10:52 PM.

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      Hey, thank you for sharing that, Zthread. I'm interested in the LED masks that work with an app. That's pretty cool. The user would have to have enough awareness to recognize the flashing as a cue for lucidity or it would be rationalized into the dream I imagine. The price doesn't seem so bad either.
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      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      Hey, thank you for sharing that, Zthread. I'm interested in the LED masks that work with an app. That's pretty cool. The user would have to have enough awareness to recognize the flashing as a cue for lucidity or it would be rationalized into the dream I imagine. The price doesn't seem so bad either.
      I'm going to see what the app can do by itself before getting the mask. If it works without the mask, might not bother getting the mask.

      Also wanted to point out that the app, with or without the mask, could have synergistic effects with LD supplements (e.g., galantamine, choline, theanine, and nicotine).

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      In a previous post on this thread, I discussed methods for reducing the amount of time it takes for LD supplements kick in. But what if you want to delay the effects by a certain amount of time?

      The answer is just two words: enteric capsules!

      (If you've never heard of them, look them up online. You'll thank me later!)
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-08-2019 at 01:50 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      The answer is just two words: enteric capsules!
      Enteric capsules are delayed-release capsules! You can buy them as empty capsules. They allow you to increase the amount of time after you take them that the LD supplements take effect by half an hour or more, compared with regular capsules. I've found that the ability to control the time delay in that manner has dramatically improved my LDing.

      The main stumbling block I've always had with LD supplements--especially galantamine and choline--is that they often give me insomnia. And it's gotten way worse as I've gotten older. I'm probably not alone in having this issue. When I take the insomnia-causing LD supplements in delayed-release capsules, the problem goes away completely, because I'm already asleep by the time the supplements take effect!

      Also, I almost always take galantamine and choline with theanine, because it helps me sleep and stabilizes my LDs. What I've been doing lately is to take some of the theanine in a regular capsule and the rest in a delayed-release capsule. That way, the theanine in the regular capsule kicks in fairly quickly to help me get to sleep. The theanine in the delayed-release capsule, on the other hand, kicks in later to help me stay asleep and stabilize my LDs.
      Last edited by Zthread; 07-09-2019 at 08:29 PM.

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      That's interesting to know. I still haven't tried any supplements except for melatonin one time. It made me feel odd and I couldn't sleep after taking it. Do you just transfer the contents of one pill to an enteric capsule?
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      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      That's interesting to know. I still haven't tried any supplements except for melatonin one time. It made me feel odd and I couldn't sleep after taking it.
      That can happen if you take too much. If you try it again, maybe just take half or a fourth of what you took before.

      Quote Originally Posted by zelcrow View Post
      Do you just transfer the contents of one pill to an enteric capsule?
      Yes. Isn't difficult to do. If it's in tablet form, you might have to chop it up first to get it to fit inside the enteric capsule. If you have supplements in regular capsules that are smaller than your enteric capsules, you might just be able to put each regular capsule inside an enteric capsule. Size-0 capsules, for example, will fit inside size-00 capsules.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Voldmer View Post
      Sleep as Android is what I use every night to track my sleep quality. It works reasonably well, and it doesn't empty the battery over night.
      Tried the Sleep as Android app for the first time last night. Set it up with sonar to monitor my sleep stages and detect dreaming. Also had the snoring-prevention and LD-induction features on. The LD-induction feature only got activated once, about 4 hours after I went to bed. Activation of the LD feature caused the phone to start vibrating and to say "You are dreaming" a few times. Unfortunately it woke me up, rather than inducing an LD. I think next time I'll turn off the vibration for that feature.

      A more interesting thing that happened is that the app seemed to alter my dreaming quite a bit. I think it was because it kept making a random clicking sound, kind of like a Geiger-counter sound. The clicking sound probably happened about 5-10 times per minute on average. It didn't keep me from going to sleep, but I think it affected my sleep and dreaming. It seemed to make me sleep more lightly. Not sure if the clicking is a feature or a bug. Anyway, it seemed to make my dreams really strange. It also gave me an incredibly scary nightmare that woke me up. Don't remember it well. I think it was something like a really creepy looking monster. I almost never have nightmares, at least not such scary ones.

      Since the app made me sleep more lightly, it might be good to use it in combination with LD supps. Could make it more likely to get lucid or maybe make the LDs last longer. Also might make my LDs more bizarre, which could be interesting.
      Voldmer and zelcrow like this.

    25. #25
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      That's pretty interesting that the clicking had an effect on your sleep. I wonder if it was a cause for the nightmare. I would probably do without the vibrating feature as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes for you.
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      Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life? - Havelock Ellis

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