Thread: Breakthrough idea...

Tired this last night.. and I had some pretty crazy HI. I cant tell if i fell asleep or if i just stayed in HI all night but yeah.

Interesting.

I use the galantamine choline mix regularly and have little side effects. I usually use it only on nights I don't exercise the next day. As long as I sleep in a little longer its not a problem and it always works 100% of the time.

I may give this a try to see the difference in dreams though.

Yeah today I woke up at 11:30am and feel like I am tired. Not like exhausted tired, more like I dont want to work out today tired. But I have to go to the gym in like an hour so yeah. Workin on them protein shakes haha.

I dont know if that has to do with the dramamine, or just me being chronically tired.

Originally Posted by moe007

I happen to have read over this many times but never noticed. The common antihistamine found in many cough and cold medications, and tylenol PM, dimenhydranite, functions somewhat similarly to acetylcholine antagonists. It is also marketed and sold as Dramamine for motion sickness. Other common brands include Bendryl and Gravol. Be aware that 50mg of dimenhydranite is equivalent to 25mg of diphenhydramine. Lets say the term ONE PILL means the same, because they are usually either 50mg pills of dimenhydranite or pills of 25mg diphenhydramine.

If taken in slightly higher doses than the recommended, in no way do I mean overdose, but since 1-2 pills of 50mg each are normally used, try 2-4 pills. If taken at WBTB, this could boost your acetylcholine dramatically, and works with less sideeffects than galantamine. Although if taken at 5-6am than you would be sleepy for the next couple hours, maybe up to 6 hours later. Nothing a cup of coffee cant cure, if you are worried that you have to wake up for work early, say 8 or 9. I recommend using on days that you can sleep in.

Since recreational use of this drug is sometimes described "dreaming while awake", than I can be certain that getting to sleep paralysis while under this drug will produce some promising results. It was hard for me to get to SP while under this drug only because Im naturally horrible at getting to SP. But Im sure many of you can do it.

Any input?

As you said, diphenhydramine is an acetylcholine antagonists, meaning it is anticholinergic, it will decrease the amount of acetylcholine transferring between neurons. Thats not to say its worthless as a dream aid, but it acts opposite to a drug like galantamine, which is a cholinergic agonist.

I did the gal.,chol. last night and had to wake up earlier than usual today due to all the commotion from the rest of the family. I feel pretty tired when I dont get to sleep in undisturbed.
I usually workout mon,wed and fri when working on mass. So I use the gal.,chol. mix mon, wed, and fri night. sometimes only mon and fri night though. Works well.

I'm gonna start experimenting with those dopamine beans , what are they called "muriena pruiens" or something. I think I'm gonna order some today.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

As you said, diphenhydramine is an acetylcholine antagonists, meaning it is anticholinergic, it will decrease the amount of acetylcholine transferring between neurons. Thats not to say its worthless as a dream aid, but it acts opposite to a drug like galantamine, which is a cholinergic agonist.

Yes, but somehow that what gives you the 'dreaming while awake' feeling, and attributes to stronger HI, and tactile sensations while in SP.

Originally Posted by RunflaCruiser

I'm gonna start experimenting with those dopamine beans , what are they called "muriena pruiens" or something. I think I'm gonna order some today.

Ive went through 2 bottles of Dopabean, muriena pruiens, and noticed that they work similarly to taking a high dose of theanine. They give heavy REM rebound, resulting in very vivid dreams in the morning hours.


On a sidenote, today i had the weirdest dreams. Kind of dream that I dont normally get. It was like a party scene, and i was drunk or something like that. I was wasted thats all i know. And the dream kept going from place to place, and i kept seeing people, notably girls, that Ive known throughout my life. They would be people that I wouldnt see at that certain place in real life. Or maybe i would. I dont know. The dream confused me. That was after taking 4 dramamines at night. I know i said take it during WBTB, but I took them for other reasons, ive been having insomnia for the past week or so. But yeah.

Diphenhydramamine, DXM (cough&cold main active substance) and Tylenol PM (trademark for a mixture of paracetamol (acetaminophen) and diphenhydramine) have similair actions as AntiCholingergic(AcetylCholine Antagonist) substances? Explain how you conclude that please?

I have heard of AntiCholinergics causing vivid inferno dreams before. Datura, Brugmansia and many it's Nightshade family of plants contain anticholinergic Tropane alkaloids( Atropine, Scopolamine and Hyosciamine). On erowid.org 2 experience reports can be found of 2 individuals who ate very low doses of Datura seeds prior to sleep(one ate 2 seeds, one ate 5 seeds) and both had very vivid, memorable and lucid dreams.

My guess is that Anticholinergics eventually lead to an AcetylCholine rebound, causing sudden high levels of acetylcholine during sleep resulting in vivid dreams.
However Datura is very toxic and deleriant in higher doses; 15 seeds, 1 tablespoon of seeds or 2 tablespoons of seeds are known to cause the much feared, dreadfull Datura delirium state. A little bit more can be lethal. So if using this plant for dreampurposes, never take more than 5 seeds.

Now it is about 2/3 hours before my usual bedtime and I'm thinking of taking 5 Datura seeds now, hoping to timer the wearing off of the Anticholinergic effect so the AcetylCholine-Rebound takes place while in REM-sleep. If it doesn't work I'll try to adjust the timing of ingestion.

Originally Posted by SKA

Diphenhydramamine, DXM (cough&cold main active substance) and Tylenol PM (trademark for a mixture of paracetamol (acetaminophen) and diphenhydramine) have similair actions as AntiCholingergic(AcetylCholine Antagonist) substances? Explain how you conclude that please?

First of all, dimenhydranite and diphenhydramine have nothing to do with DXM. Second of all, there is no such thing as diphenhydramamine. I believe you meant diphenhydramine.
Finally, Dimenhydranite and diphenhydramine which are chemically, brothers say, have both shown effects of antagonism of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors in both the central and autonomic nervous system which inhibits various signal transduction pathways.

I have heard of AntiCholinergics causing vivid inferno dreams before. Datura, Brugmansia and many it's Nightshade family of plants contain anticholinergic Tropane alkaloids( Atropine, Scopolamine and Hyosciamine). On erowid.org 2 experience reports can be found of 2 individuals who ate very low doses of Datura seeds prior to sleep(one ate 2 seeds, one ate 5 seeds) and both had very vivid, memorable and lucid dreams.

That may be true, but I am specifically talking about dimenhydranite/diphenhydramine.

My guess is that Anticholinergics eventually lead to an AcetylCholine rebound, causing sudden high levels of acetylcholine during sleep resulting in vivid dreams.
However Datura is very toxic and deleriant in higher doses; 15 seeds, 1 tablespoon of seeds or 2 tablespoons of seeds are known to cause the much feared, dreadfull Datura delirium state. A little bit more can be lethal. So if using this plant for dreampurposes, never take more than 5 seeds.

Your guess may also be true, but I do not know how you relate Datura to dimenhydranite because Datura has a reputation for being used as a poison and as a hallucinogen...While dimenhydranite is a simple sleep aid/allergy medication due to the antimuscarinic effects it produces.

Pulled straight from Wikipedia:
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Due to the potent combination of anticholinergic substances it contains, Datura intoxication typically produces effects similar to that of an anticholinergic delirium: a complete inability to differentiate reality from fantasy (frank delirium, as contrasted to hallucination); hyperthermia; tachycardia; bizarre, and possibly violent behavior; and severe mydriasis with resultant painful photophobia that can last several days. Pronounced amnesia is another commonly reported effect.

According to the drug information site Erowid, no other substance has received as many "Train Wreck" severely negative experience reports as has Datura[3], noting that "the overwhelming majority of those who describe to us their use of Datura (and to a lesser extent, Belladonna, Brugmansia and Brunfelsia) find their experiences extremely mentally and physically unpleasant and not infrequently physically dangerous."

The full listing of reports can be found at www.erowid.org. Numerous stories of datura-related deaths and critical illnesses can also be found at the Lycaeum Datura index.
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How is that anywhere NEAR the effects of dimenhydranite? You would need to take 25+ pills of dimenhydranite to get to a delusional state equal to that of the Datura's.

Now it is about 2/3 hours before my usual bedtime and I'm thinking of taking 5 Datura seeds now, hoping to timer the wearing off of the Anticholinergic effect so the AcetylCholine-Rebound takes place while in REM-sleep. If it doesn't work I'll try to adjust the timing of ingestion.

Good luck with your experimentations.

Originally Posted by RunflaCruiser

I'm gonna start experimenting with those dopamine beans , what are they called "muriena pruiens" or something. I think I'm gonna order some today.

I wouldn't mess with mucuna beans at all. They contain large amounts of levodopa, which is converted into dopamine in the body. This is dangerous because levodopa is distributed systemically and it is converted to dopamine on spot within most tissues, so you end up with too much in your peripheral tissues. This causes all kinds of side effects. People being treated for parkinsons with levodopa will usually also be given carbidopa, which somewhat prevents conversion of l-dopa to dopamine in the peripheral tissue, but only enough to moderately decrease the side effects.

Originally Posted by SKA

I have heard of AntiCholinergics causing vivid inferno dreams before. Datura, Brugmansia and many it's Nightshade family of plants contain anticholinergic Tropane alkaloids( Atropine, Scopolamine and Hyosciamine). On erowid.org 2 experience reports can be found of 2 individuals who ate very low doses of Datura seeds prior to sleep(one ate 2 seeds, one ate 5 seeds) and both had very vivid, memorable and lucid dreams.

My guess is that Anticholinergics eventually lead to an AcetylCholine rebound, causing sudden high levels of acetylcholine during sleep resulting in vivid dreams.
However Datura is very toxic and deleriant in higher doses; 15 seeds, 1 tablespoon of seeds or 2 tablespoons of seeds are known to cause the much feared, dreadfull Datura delirium state. A little bit more can be lethal. So if using this plant for dreampurposes, never take more than 5 seeds.

Now it is about 2/3 hours before my usual bedtime and I'm thinking of taking 5 Datura seeds now, hoping to timer the wearing off of the Anticholinergic effect so the AcetylCholine-Rebound takes place while in REM-sleep. If it doesn't work I'll try to adjust the timing of ingestion.

I almost mentioned the nightshade plants and tropane alkaloids being known as dream aids and being anticholinergic in my first post. I'm doubting they work by rebound since in my experience they can cause vivid dreaming during the peak effects, plus they have a long half-life and probably wouldn't cause rebound until at least the following night. I've experimented with datura at low and high doses and had some incredible experiences. When I used it as a dream aid I took it too many days in a row one time and started having hallucinations while I was awake, the alkaloids tend to have an accumulative effect. I don't recommend taking a high dose for fun, if you do make sure you have someone watching you 24/7 for the next few days.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

I wouldn't mess with mucuna beans at all. They contain large amounts of levodopa, which is converted into dopamine in the body. This is dangerous because levodopa is distributed systemically and it is converted to dopamine on spot within most tissues, so you end up with too much in your peripheral tissues. This causes all kinds of side effects. People being treated for parkinsons with levodopa will usually also be given carbidopa, which somewhat prevents conversion of l-dopa to dopamine in the peripheral tissue, but only enough to moderately decrease the side effects.

If I recall correctly, that only happens if you have high amounts of vitamin B6 in your plasma concentrations. Vitamin b6, usually in the form of pyridoxine, is needed to decarboxylize levodopa into dopamine. Therefore if the b6 is absent, the levodopa will be carried in the blood until it gets to the blood brain barrier and it will be converted into dopamine inside the brain.

Wiki can explain better:

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Levodopa is used as a prodrug to increase dopamine levels for the treatment of Parkinson's disease, since it is able to cross the blood-brain barrier, whereas dopamine itself cannot. Once levodopa has entered the central nervous system (CNS), it is metabolized to dopamine by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase. Pyridoxal phosphate (vitamin B6) is a required cofactor for this decarboxylation, and may be administered along with levodopa, usually as pyridoxine.

Conversion to dopamine also occurs in the peripheral tissues, i.e. outside the brain. This is the primary mechanism of the adverse effects of levodopa. It is standard clinical practice to co-administer a peripheral DOPA decarboxylase inhibitor—carbidopa or benserazide—and often a catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) inhibitor, to prevent synthesis of dopamine in peripheral tissue. Co-administration of pyridoxine without a decarboxylase inhibitor accelerates the extracerebral decarboxylation to such an extent that it cancels out the effects of levodopa administration, a circumstance which historically caused great confusion.

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Originally Posted by moe007

If I recall correctly, that only happens if you have high amounts of vitamin B6 in your plasma concentrations. Vitamin b6, usually in the form of pyridoxine, is needed to decarboxylize levodopa into dopamine. Therefore if the b6 is absent, the levodopa will be carried in the blood until it gets to the blood brain barrier and it will be converted into dopamine inside the brain.

Wiki can explain better:

------------
Levodopa is used as a prodrug to increase dopamine levels for the treatment of Parkinson's disease, since it is able to cross the blood-brain barrier, whereas dopamine itself cannot. Once levodopa has entered the central nervous system (CNS), it is metabolized to dopamine by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase. Pyridoxal phosphate (vitamin B6) is a required cofactor for this decarboxylation, and may be administered along with levodopa, usually as pyridoxine.

Conversion to dopamine also occurs in the peripheral tissues, i.e. outside the brain. This is the primary mechanism of the adverse effects of levodopa. It is standard clinical practice to co-administer a peripheral DOPA decarboxylase inhibitor—carbidopa or benserazide—and often a catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) inhibitor, to prevent synthesis of dopamine in peripheral tissue. Co-administration of pyridoxine without a decarboxylase inhibitor accelerates the extracerebral decarboxylation to such an extent that it cancels out the effects of levodopa administration, a circumstance which historically caused great confusion.

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When levodopa is taken by itself it is only advised to take b6 to avoid a deficiency, since b6 is used up when levodopa is being converted. When you are taking carbidopa with levodopa, you do not have to worry about b6 deficiency because carbidopa blocks most of the levodopa conversion that uses b6, so more levodopa makes it to the brain and is converted there. I'm guessing if you are on levodopa alone and took a high dose of b6 it may increase side effects, but you will get side effects regardless when you are taking enough to substantially alter your brains dopamine levels.

I think as long as you stay at a low dose you are safe experimenting, just be cautious and aware, there could be accumulative effects that are hard to notice.