Thread: Randomness

Possible yet not plausible. I agree with Tsens assertions that the constant
variables at the Quantum level would interfere with any predictability.

Originally posted by me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(me)</div>

If you took into account every environmental factor influencing the pen for the duration of the fall, couldn't you predict exactly how its going to land? [/b]

Originally posted by Tsen@
some dumb shit

Because conventional methods of analysis wouldnt work, its impossible? If people thought people have put possible concepts down to being impossible all throughout history simply because they don't know how it could be possible.

Just because we don't know how to accurately gauge every aspect of subatomic particles at this point in time doesn't make it impossible.

But then again there's a chance that it's impossible.

<!--QuoteBegin-Tsen
I wear womens clothing

Sounds kinky

Look. Here's how it works.

You analyze every particle. Let's even suppose you've somehow managed to learn both the velocity and the location of every single particle. You have EVERY variable covered. You make a prediction about what it will be like in a few minutes. Or a few days. Whatever. You wait until the time is up, then analyze every particle again to see if you're right.

But you won't be right.

You had every variable covered, but nature all of a sudden decided to create NEW variables. And the more you try to analyze every last variable, the more new ones pop up. The closer you look, the more you find.

That's why you can make general predictions--the wrench will fall--but you can't predict very complex systems. Or even simple systems very accurately. Can't be done.

i'm tired but i think tsen trying to describe the uncertinty principle.

a basic exaple is if you were trying to measure the speed and direction of a, lets say electron. to do this you might bounce another electon or a light wave off it and use a detector to pick it (the light wave etc) up when it bounces back.

however, in trying to take its direction/speed etc you have disturbed its original course in a way you cant calculate the outcome. so your no better off and have wasted precious dreaming or lazing time, whatever is your preferance.

in big words this kinda renders the quantum level of existance aparently random although currenty scientists can calculate the chances of certain outcomes at this level it SEEMS impossible to calculate a definate outcome

Originally posted by Tsen
bla bla bla

Whos to say that the nature of these new variables of yours and how they are created cannot be predicted? Again you are relying on current methods of observation. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's impossible.

Anyway, my current arguement (if you don't understand it, its still possible) is angling towards pseudo philosophy and is therefore making the whole question redundant. To bicker some more would result in a potentially indefinate debate. Jesus, I made this topic like 2 months ago... why is it at the top of the friggin list?

Originally posted by cooter


Whos to say that the nature of these new variables of yours and how they are created cannot be predicted? Again you are relying on current methods of observation. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's impossible.

Anyway, my current arguement (if you don't understand it, its still possible) is angling towards pseudo philosophy and is therefore making the whole question redundant. To bicker some more would result in a potentially indefinate debate. Jesus, I made this topic like 2 months ago... why is it at the top of the friggin list?

Well you can either know the momentum of the particle or you can know the position of the particle, the more you know of one the less you know of another.

So you would have to guess, and being that that was just one particle, and we are talking somewhere around a googol of different things(electrons, neitrons, protons(if we got into quarks, we mighy get into googolplexes)) here, are you sure you can guess each variable right, all in an instant(actually, in a period of 0 time)

Yup, Awhistyle got exactly what I was saying.

And then I furthered that: Suppose you could know everything about every particle. Using unconventional methods or whatever.

I'm saying that subatomic particles are known to spontaneously create themselves and destroy themselves, popping in and out of existence, even in vaccuums. In an experiment such as this, you're dealing with a much larger scale, and therefore are going to have a significantly higher number of these subatomic particles. Each one of these will alter the results of the experiment. And you can't predict when or where these particles will pop up. You can't even predict what kind of particles they'll be! Scientists have been working at explaining them, or finding any pattern in their existence, but they CAN'T. No matter how many leaks you plug, new ones pop up. And let's say you predict exactly where, when and what these particles will be. Do you know which direction they're going? How fast they're going? Unless you know both, you can't predict what will happen. You'd have to make a new measurement partway through the experiment to discover where they're going. That sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Wasn't the original experiment proposed to discover what will happen if you knew about every single bit of information? But here you are, having to make millions of subsequent observations to account for new particles.

It's like setting up a security camera. Let's say it's a magic security camera. You intend to take a picture of the store. Since this is a magic camera, it can see in all directions, through shelves, and into your mind. It knows where every single person is, and what every single one of their intentions are. It even knows if the thirty year old woman in the back plans on stealing that new fur coat. Or if the kid in aisle on the right is lost, and where his mom is at. This camera knows EVERYTHING. Well, since you already know everything about every object and every person in the store, you decide that using this picture, you can predict the net profit for the next few minutes. So, in a few more minutes you take another picture to see if you were right. You'd be wrong, AGAIN. Somewhere in the middle, new people started walking in the door. You try again with the door locked, but you're still wrong. New products had started to spontaneously pop up on the shelves, and money started appearing in people's wallets and purses. People even started growing out of the floor. In order to successfully know the profits, you'd have to set up a magic video camera instead of your old single-frame one to be sure you know about every new person, product, and money that popped up. But now you've gone so far to predict what will happen that you're really just WATCHING it happen!