Thread: Existence - Natural Or Miraculous?

And are forests, oceans, rainbows, flowers, sunsets natural or miraculous?
What do you call "a miracle"? - Jesus walking on a sea-surface?

Originally Posted by Rav1

And are forests, oceans, rainbows, flowers, sunsets natural or miraculous?
What do you call "a miracle"? - Jesus walking on a sea-surface?
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As I have said, I call existence in itself a miracle. Therefore, everything that exists, which includes forests, oceans, rainbows, flowers, sunsets, along with everything else that exists (which is of course, everything) is miraculous.

So miraculous as in uncomprehendable?

Yeah Ninja, I agree with you wholeheartedly. (i firmly believe in God) But to a random onlooker it really just looks like you're saying "i cannot comprehend how this has come to be, therefore it is a miracle".
As believers in God we cannot use our passion in our belief during these types of discussions or we end up looking like idiots ruled by our emotions.
Life is a miracle of God, but you need to elaborate or you'll end up sounding like an ignorant religious type, a trap I've fallen into many a time. Also I think you mean to use the word life rather than existence. Or you may mean something else altogether, I can't tell. Elaborate please.

Well existence is the basis for life to happen, right?
So existence he means as the bacteria etc. we, if natural, where created of. As well as he is talking about things that are a result of human life..
So this is a hard question and for believers easy to answer I guess. Since we don't know what the sense of life is, we can't know what the "true" way of creation is .. you know.

"So existence he means as the bacteria etc. we, if natural, where created of."
i'm going to assume this line means "By existence he means the bacteria from which we evolved"
Everything around you exists. Dirt exists but it is not a miracle. It's existence is easily explainable. Life is another story. And bacteria is living.

Originally Posted by ninja

I firmly believe existence is so incredible that it is beyond words. Growing up, just being seemed like nothing special; now that I have matured, I find nothing natural at all about existing. I think that naturally, I should actually cease to exist! Therefore, I give credence to something more powerful than me for my very existence. Call it God, Allah, or Curious George; it is what it is. To deny a creator is to believe that this all is natural, as the atheist believes this naturally happened without a greater source. So I guess it really does come down to this question: is existence natural or miraculous?

Please elaborate on your opinion; one-word responses are acceptable as well.
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Should this be in philosophy? You are just ripping on athiests.

I often think about how weird it really is that Anything exists at all. The fact that a single atom exist isn't more weird then the existance of complex animals. They just came from a bunch of atoms, a cascade of events.

Existance is weird. However material existance is way less weird then some intelligent 'thing' that floats around since forever. How did god came into existance. Eternal god is less likely than an eternal universe.

Oh! Sorry now i re-read it's obvious what you meant. Thanks to neruo for explaining. No wonder I failed english.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Should this be in philosophy? You are just ripping on athiests.

I often think about how weird it really is that Anything exists at all. The fact that a single atom exist isn't more weird then the existance of complex animals. They just came from a bunch of atoms, a cascade of events.

Existance is weird. However material existance is way less weird then some intelligent 'thing' that floats around since forever. How did god came into existance. Eternal god is less likely than an eternal universe.
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Well, since it requires one to think in a philosophical way, then yes I'd say it is an appropriate subject for this discussion board. Neruo has further stressed my point; the fact that a single atom exists is just as incredible as the existence of intelligence, or anything at all for that matter. SOMETHINGNESS is what's incredible. Hard to wrap your mind around, but it is.

My intentions are not to rip on atheists; my point is this: if you believe existence is a miracle, whereas miracles do not happen naturally, then the universe could not happen naturally. It seems (I stress the word seems) apparent that if one believes the universe is a natural THING, then their conscious life too is natural. In other words, not a miracle. In NO WAY am I trying to offend atheists, and by all means give me feedback if you disagree because that is the reason I started this thread in the first place.

not hard to get the head around... and i've thought about it before. but such a thing is difficult to discuss because; why is it more a miracle that a single atom exists than it is perfectly likely? i think we stare in awe at these ideas because we don't understand them. They are beyond our understanding so we label them 'miracle'.

Originally Posted by ninja

I firmly believe existence is so incredible that it is beyond words. Growing up, just being seemed like nothing special; now that I have matured, I find nothing natural at all about existing. I think that naturally, I should actually cease to exist! Therefore, I give credence to something more powerful than me for my very existence. Call it God, Allah, or Curious George; it is what it is. To deny a creator is to believe that this all is natural, as the atheist believes this naturally happened without a greater source. So I guess it really does come down to this question: is existence natural or miraculous?

Please elaborate on your opinion; one-word responses are acceptable as well.
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I agree exactly how you say it, and its not bashing on athiest. And just saying it as simple as you do is in my mind the best way to describe it

I beleive it God. It wa sa star that passed what was this giant cloud of dustand debris, immoble in space that evetually passed what is now our solar system. Theres too much knowlege in my brain to just throw it up in the air and beleive that a single being created all.

Originally Posted by TheNocturnalGent

I beleive it God. It wa sa star that passed what was this giant cloud of dustand debris, immoble in space that evetually passed what is now our solar system. Theres too much knowlege in my brain to just throw it up in the air and beleive that a single being created all.
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This is the inevitable question no one can answer, who made everything?

Athiest say that we use that against them no matter what they say....................but how is anything possible without a creator?

This is definitely in the wrong forum.

firmly believe God is so incredible that it is beyond words. Growing up, God seemed like nothing special; now that I have matured, I find nothing natural at all about God. To deny a creator is to believe that God is natural, as the theist believes this naturally happened without a greater source. So I guess it really does come down to this question: is God natural or miraculous?

Originally Posted by ninja

Well, since it requires one to think in a philosophical way, then yes I'd say it is an appropriate subject for this discussion board. Neruo has further stressed my point; the fact that a single atom exists is just as incredible as the existence of intelligence, or anything at all for that matter. SOMETHINGNESS is what's incredible. Hard to wrap your mind around, but it is.

My intentions are not to rip on atheists; my point is this: if you believe existence is a miracle, whereas miracles do not happen naturally, then the universe could not happen naturally. It seems (I stress the word seems) apparent that if one believes the universe is a natural THING, then their conscious life too is natural. In other words, not a miracle. In NO WAY am I trying to offend atheists, and by all means give me feedback if you disagree because that is the reason I started this thread in the first place.
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Great, you dodged my question! Congatulations.

Like I said: Why can an intelligent floating super-being be eternal and without creator and the universe can not?

Originally Posted by Neruo

Great, you dodged my question! Congatulations.

Like I said: Why can an intelligent floating super-being be eternal and without creator and the universe can not?
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I'll jump in with my own answer:
Because the rules this universe would be different than that of the universe an infinite creator may have been derived from. The concept of time for instance may only exist here, they may not exist 'there'. This can be a difficult concept for many to understand, because it brings infinite into question. If he existed infinitely, where did he begin?

Don't forget that "beginning and ends" have only so far applied to THIS universe as far as we know, and they may just as easily not apply to dimensions that lack our laws of physics. Our minds are conditioned to think in terms of cause and effect only because we were born and raised solely in this place.

I know exactly how a baby is formed. I know the order of growth, the methode of conseption, and the recombination of the genetic information afterwords.

I know what happends during labour, I know what is done for a baby to have life.

Yet I still find a birth a mirical, and pregnancy a wonder.

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I'll jump in with my own answer:
Because the rules this universe would be different than that of the universe an infinite creator may have been derived from. The concept of time for instance may only exist here, they may not exist 'there'. This can be a difficult concept for many to understand, because it brings infinite into question. If he existed infinitely, where did he begin?

Don't forget that "beginning and ends" have only so far applied to THIS universe as far as we know, and they may just as easily not apply to dimensions that lack our laws of physics. Our minds are conditioned to think in terms of cause and effect only because we were born and raised solely in this place.
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What really did you say besides that time only exists within our own universe? Just makes it more logic for anything to be able to exist with no start or an end, becouse that start and that end only relate inside itself. You could say that the universe as a whole stands outside of time, thus it is eternal.

Common human logic would say (if one had to give an answer right now), that the universe was either created by God and everything we experience is real, or that life is just a dillusion and nothing really exists, and that would satisfy the only real two possibilities of this universe. It either exists through creation or does not exist at all.

To think the universe is natural is just being ignorant. To think existance is natural is being beyond ignorant. You might as well take the stance that nothing exists if you think existance is just some big natural fluke.

Either way existance is an amazing thing. I tend to think about this once in a while, but I do not dwell on it for to long. All the matters to me is that I am here, to have the experience of being alive.

Lately though, there have been some amazing discoveries in science (dark matter, dark energy, atoms knowing exactly how it's "other half" is acting miles away - possibily defying Einstein's law that no force can travel faster then the speed of light). God sure knew how to keep us busy.

Originally Posted by Mark75

This is definitely in the wrong forum.

firmly believe God is so incredible that it is beyond words. Growing up, God seemed like nothing special; now that I have matured, I find nothing natural at all about God. To deny a creator is to believe that God is natural, as the theist believes this naturally happened without a greater source. So I guess it really does come down to this question: is God natural or miraculous?
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Yeah, I understand what you're saying Mark. It's quite paradoxical actually; if nothing miraculous can be natural, how can anything at all exist without positing its very existence on something else that is miraculous? You'd simply end up with an infinite chain of seemingly more miraculous creators creating their successors.

Either way, the paradox still stands. Nothing miraculous can be natural. The universe is miraculous. The universe cannot be natural. What we decide to do with this information is up to us. I think that positing existence on an all-powerful intelligence is actually quite plausible. I mean, clearly there is SOMETHING greater than us going on here!

As far as this being in the wrong forum, I'd disagree. If I were ranting and raving about Christ the messiah, Mohammad the prophet, or Siddhartha Gottama's enlightenment then it's rightful place would be under the religion forum. The origin of the universe has little or nothing to do with religion; it has everything to do with developing an individual philosophical approach to life.

Good feedback thus far; keep it comin.

One last thing: if you take this far enough, it begins to look like any form of existence at all is impossible. Yet, somehow against the odds, existence is! This leads me to the conclusion that some sort of greater force is responsible for all of this.

On a side note, I just finished reading an excellent book by the Dalai Lama entitled Ethics for the New Millennium. This has nothing to do with our discussion, but regardless I highly recommend this book.

Originally Posted by ninja

Yeah, I understand what you're saying Mark. It's quite paradoxical actually; if nothing miraculous can be natural, how can anything at all exist without positing its very existence on something else that is miraculous? You'd simply end up with an infinite chain of seemingly more miraculous creators creating their successors.

Either way, the paradox still stands. Nothing miraculous can be natural. The universe is miraculous. The universe cannot be natural. What we decide to do with this information is up to us.[/b]

What you call a "paradox" is more accurately identified as a logical fallacy.

The universe is a vast, nigh incomprehensible thing. The universe is therefore miraculous. Miraculous things require a creator. Therefore, god created the universe. God is even vaster, even more incomprehensible than the universe. God is therefore even more miraculous than the universe. If the universe requires a creator because it is so miraculous, then something even more miraculous definitely needs a creator.

Yet you identify god as being "at the top".

Originally Posted by ninja

One last thing: if you take this far enough, it begins to look like any form of existence at all is impossible.
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Yes, well, that is unless you remove the idea that existence needs to be created. Remove the idea that there was a beginning. Shouldn't be much of a stretch for you to imagine, considering god doesn't need to be created and considering that he too had no beginning. You're arguing that it needs some cause, yet that just leads us in an indefinite loop. If you imagine that it were possible for there to be existance without requiring a creator it really makes a lot more sense. I find that much easier to believe than your story of it being made by a man with silly ridiculous impossible magic.

Originally Posted by ninja

I think that positing existence on an all-powerful intelligence is actually quite plausible. I mean, clearly there is SOMETHING greater than us going on here! [/b]

Really? I must be blind. Please point me in the direction of whatever it is that has made this so clear to you. Specifically, what has lead you to your specific conclusion that it was the work of your god.

Originally Posted by ninja

As far as this being in the wrong forum, I'd disagree. If I were ranting and raving about Christ the messiah, Mohammad the prophet, or Siddhartha Gottama's enlightenment then it's rightful place would be under the religion forum. The origin of the universe has little or nothing to do with religion; it has everything to do with developing an individual philosophical approach to life.

Good feedback thus far; keep it comin.
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Yeah, except that we're talking about god. So, yeah, it does have to do with religion.

and what makes it most miraculas is that God doesn't HAVE a creator, for He is the Creator.

Give me a bit and I'll explain this fully.

Originally Posted by Mark75

What you call a "paradox" is more accurately identified as a logical fallacy.

The universe is a vast, nigh incomprehensible thing. The universe is therefore miraculous. Miraculous things require a creator. Therefore, god created the universe. God is even vaster, even more incomprehensible than the universe. God is therefore even more miraculous than the universe. If the universe requires a creator because it is so miraculous, then something even more miraculous definitely needs a creator.

Yet you identify god as being "at the top".
Yes, well, that is unless you remove the idea that existence needs to be created. Remove the idea that there was a beginning. Shouldn't be much of a stretch for you to imagine, considering god doesn't need to be created and considering that he too had no beginning. You're arguing that it needs some cause, yet that just leads us in an indefinite loop. If you imagine that it were possible for there to be existance without requiring a creator it really makes a lot more sense. I find that much easier to believe than your story of it being made by a man with silly ridiculous impossible magic.
Really? I must be blind. Please point me in the direction of whatever it is that has made this so clear to you. Specifically, what has lead you to your specific conclusion that it was the work of your god.
Yeah, except that we're talking about god. So, yeah, it does have to do with religion.
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Here...this excerpt is something I recently wrote in another forum:

"As all of you atheists are aware, and have made me aware of as well, the univserse does not actually require a God to create it. The term 'infinity' disassembles the need for a creator, right? Well, just because the universe does not REQUIRE a god is not suggestive that one isn't there. A blind man may not require vision, or the deaf man hearing to survive, but that does not imply that sight and sound do not exist.

So yes, it is an extremely difficult question to answer. Does God exist? I believe this is our test. We are faced with the toughest objections every day in order to determine just what we believe. We have free will to choose whether or not God exists, and I'm sure God wishes all of us could come to the same consensus."

Ok, I could go further as to why I believe in a creator, but then this WILL develop into a religious discussion.

Tell me, is atheism a religion? Is theism a religion in itself? No, therefore this is NOT a religious topic.

"Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought." - wikipedia.org

Like I said, if we were diving into topics such as the Bible, Qu'ran, Tripitika, or the Vedas then it WOULD be religious discussion.