America & The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire

[O'nus]

Hello, In light of the recent posts regarding America, I thought it might be interesting to consider this theory; many people have said that there are strict similarities in America's governmental practices and the decline and fall of the Roman Empire (Eastern, not Byzantium..). I am not too knowledgable about all of the correleations that people have generated between the two but I thought I might post it up to see what you all have to say or think about it. From a philosophical and psychological perspective, I wonder if us as humans have a tendancy to solve problems very reflective of our past. Hence the phrase, "history repeats itself" seems to stare us in the face. I argue that we have significantly less violence as they did in first 5 centuries of our common era.. However, the mentality of the important figures involved seem to be reflective. I only consider myself an amateur with classical history, but I do believe that there seems to be a similar mentality between the Romans and the Americans. What seemed to destroy the Roman Empire was the resistance in the Byzantine Empire which eventually lead to the destruction of the Rome itself. I find it similar to the American's of today doing their best to "liberate" other countries just as Rome wanted to "liberate" the Holy land. I would presume that the majority of history scholars here would agree with me that "liberating" the Holy land was not the primary interest of any of the Roman Emperor's but that securing their land against the Muslim's, Goths, and others, was their primary interest. Ergo, I think I can understand why others may think America is similar in their views to secure this land. I may not agree, but, what could this mean if it were true..? It is also interesting to note that America seems to have become what students of today refer to as a "boiling pot" which is shared in the Roman times once Theodosius and Constantine initiated the Christian Roman Empire in the 4th century. What are your thoughts...? Anyone have any links that elucidate this theory...? ~

[Hard as Nails]

I agree. As much as i love my country, i must say that we will fall, hard, sooner or later. Rome made the mistake of making their emipre too spread out, and America will fall because of foreign dependence. It could happen any time. Another reason may be because America is breaking down from what it used to be. Our democracy is seeing the beginning of failure. again... i say we should have been isolationist all along. None of our current problems would be happening.

[The Blue Meanie]

In light of the recent posts regarding America, I thought it might be interesting to consider this theory; many people have said that there are strict similarities in America's governmental practices and the decline and fall of the Roman Empire (Eastern, not Byzantium..). [/b] You mean "Western, not Byzantian", correct? But regardless. Good post. I tend to agree. Very good comparison.

[Howie]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Onus")</div> It is also interesting to note that America seems to have become what students of today refer to as a "boiling pot" which is shared in the Roman times once Theodosius and Constantine initiated the Christian Roman Empire in the 4th century. What are your thoughts...? Anyone have any links that elucidate this theory...?[/b] I have always thought of America as the melting pot. But a "boiling pot" may be a better description these days. I have heard reference to the parallel between these two often lately. I am not that interested in watching sports as I am playing them but there is sooo much attention, Money and fame surrounded around Football, baseball and basketball that it came to my mind the other day again. The Roman Empire hoarded masses of people into stadiums for entertainment. Sound familiar? We have a culture of people that want everything NOW. A society of satisfaction? I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

[TheNocturnalGent]

I have been a part of this debate enough times ... America is not a country of longevity, its not as powerful as the roman empire and it never will be in its current form. You can draw alot of similarities betwen the two my geuss is america doesnt have much more than anouther 100 years ahead of it, but hey, i could be wrong. Not to mention how the lands that we conquered was about even with the lands conquered by the romans.. mostly barbarians, (similar to native americans when it comes to...) with high numbers but limited technology. Americas past is stained with blood. Good topic. History is a huge part of knowing your future.

[Wolffe]

Well they say nothing lasts forever. Not only the Roman, but the British empire aswell. You might say the British empire died giving birth to America! I wonder what America will give birth to...

[Rav1]

Well they say nothing lasts forever. Not only the Roman, but the British empire aswell. You might say the British empire died giving birth to America! I wonder what America will give birth to... [/b] Probably to no one. There are no undiscovered lands to conquer any more. And no potential slaves to build another empire for someone's else pleasure.

[O'nus]

You mean "Western, not Byzantian", correct? But regardless. Good post. I tend to agree. Very good comparison. [/b] Quick note.. I meant Western Rome, not Eastern Byzantium... thanks for the correction, lol.

[Howie]

Well unfortunately a lot of this post and a sub post to this topic has been lost due to the server issues. I proposed an idea on how to make an America a long lasting nation. Well in hind site, I would like to change that approach all together. Not America. Any country. As O'nus has been pointing out the rise and fall of the great roman empire, I think a big difference lies from those times compared to today. As they say, "The sun never sets on the Roman Empire." This is obviously not the case in todays world. However there are a ton of other complications. So what attributes could a group of peoples have to sustain a long lasting civilization? Is it even possible It seems like History has repeated itself many times over in different form, yet the same result. How many of us truly believe that 150 years from now many of the powerful nations will exist? In the whole scope of things, that is not that long of a period. Two three generations.

[blade5x]

I think when it falls, it will split up. - North East Region - Confederate States - Texas goes back to Mexico - California splits into 2 different states, southern half gets overloaded with illegals - Seattle merges with Canada We seriously need aliens to attack us or something. Just so, for a period of time, if we win the war, the entire human race will be united, fighting beside eachother, not against eachother. I'd rather us be known to the universe going down because of an alien attack rather then destroying ourselves.

[Howie]

Hahaha. With much thought about this your alien theory is about the most comprehensive one I have heard. Hell, maybe you did not mean it as a joke??. California splits into 2 different states, southern half gets overloaded with illegals[/b] I think you meant split off into the ocean.

[loose id]

Hahaha. With much thought about this your alien theory is about the most comprehensive one I have heard. Hell, maybe you did not mean it as a joke??. I think you meant split off into the ocean. [/b] Alaska can come too.

[Wolffe]

Alaska can come too. [/b] THE EEEEAND.

[Neruo]

I agree. As much as i love my country, i must say that we will fall, hard, sooner or later. Rome made the mistake of making their emipre too spread out, and America will fall because of foreign dependence. It could happen any time. Another reason may be because America is breaking down from what it used to be. Our democracy is seeing the beginning of failure.[/b] lol I actually argree with you on that. : ) And America will not just fall by foreign dependence, but also by general mistakes they made in their forgeing policy. (like Iraq.) again... i say we should have been isolationist all along. None of our current problems would be happening. [/b] Yeah. America should have. Instead of playing world police, get your own country up to a better level. America neglected itself while playing world police all the time. The population has gone dumb and blind by all the wars. If america would focus on itself more, it could have been a way better nation.

[Howie]

This is no help for any long lasting nation. U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK The Outstanding Public Debt as of 16 Nov 2006 at 02:58:03 PM GMT is: $ 8 , 6 1 1 , 8 7 6 , 6 8 4 , 8 6 5 . 4 8 The estimated population of the United States is 300,240,277 so each citizen's share of this debt is $28,683.28. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $2.18 billion per day since September 29, 2006! OUCH!

[Neruo]

[color=#990000]U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK The Outstanding Public Debt as of 16 Nov 2006 at 02:58:03 PM GMT is: $ 8 , 6 1 1 , 8 7 6 , 6 8 4 , 8 6 5 . 4 8 [/b] Woooow. How does America stay afloat? :0 That number isn't healthy, is it now? Why don't anyone take action? Anyhow, bush is responible for like... 4 , 7 2 6 , 3 2 5 , 8 4 2 , 7 7 2 . 9 3 U.S.D. Right? lol. Man that is eighty-million-million :0 WOW.

[Howie]

Woooow. How does America stay afloat? :0 That number isn't healthy, is it now? Why don't anyone take action? Anyhow, bush is responible for like... 4 , 7 2 6 , 3 2 5 , 8 4 2 , 7 7 2 . 9 3 U.S.D. Right? lol. Man that is eighty-million-million :0 WOW. [/b] I would guess it would be like any one's personal debt. You can only stay afloat so long before )> To think we really have little, some but little choice in them spending OUR money.

[TheUnknown]

I would like to start by saying, sure.. we're in debt.. but SHIT how many other countries you think are in debt? Given we all know empires don't last forever, some last long, and some don't last long. I don't credit one man with our downfall, a series of events is causing us to fall into a hole. I don't think in this current decade the US is going to tear itself apart in a revolution or civil war, but we do have to accept the fact other countries exist... even if they exist to piss us off (France, Spain, North Korea, Isreal, you know who you are, and don't think you're the only ones). We need to let them deal with their problems, and if France gets invaded, then let them stay invaded. The US reached its peak of power sometime after WWII and during the Cold War, I really doubt the people of the nation have the spirit to bring it back to those days. The problem with WWII is that we went from being an isolationist superpower to being the world police. For a time, we had an enemy, the Soviet Union. When the US is put against a country or a government it performs well, but because we are/were a country of ideals, we cannot fight these police wars with every country wanting to make noise. I think that US war with the Middle East was unavoidable, the attacks of 9/11 pissed a LOT of people off and Afganistan was known to be a Taleban country. The war with Iraq was a rash move by our country, but not unjustified. It served as a simple warning to the UN, that if they won't enforce resolutions, we will. And so the US starts a war against a government and easilly overthrows it. But the war against religious ideal cannot be fought by a government, it gets fought by a people. Our place is not in Iraq trying to quash the rebellion. So it comes down, who do the fools blame? The figurehead Bush of course. Given, this is not a polished man when it comes to public speaking, nor is he a good leader. However, COMPLETE blame for the war cannot be leveled on one man. This problem started with Vietnam and will only continue to repeat itself because the US never withdrew its forces from around the world. We stand in a horrible situation right now, the top administration of the country has lost its connection with the people and set its course for an endless war, and the legislative below it will now immediatly try to remedy this debt by ramping taxes up. But this is really just the economy, the problems lie deeper, we've lost a great deal of our foreign support. The little sense we do have is in reference to the crazy fucks in North Korea. Europe presses the US to take action against them which is a REALLY bad idea. This is a country that is not afraid to attack its neighbors and kill lots of civilians (now the liberals will cry "oh, but you are killing civilians now in Iraq", and sure we are, but not millions and millions). So we put our foot down for a change and won't step into this conflict. But it leaves Iraq, the great question comes down to, do we pull out and let a feeble government be taken over by a theocracy like Iran, or do we continue to lose soldiers to their insane beliefs. It also must be mentioned, that by attacking Iraq, we knocked off a balance that existed between Iraq and Iran. With Iran's enemy gone and public oppinion of the US war in Iraq being so low, Iran is now left with full opertunities to develop the very WMD's feared in Iraq, and distribute to terrorists crossing the border to Iraq. It's a war the US lost just like Vietnam, I expect the future is grim with the probable choice of pulling out and leaving Iran to develop weapons and Iraq to come under a theocracy. The only other outcome would be that the rest of the developed world would wake up and see this threat, and lauch the world into WWIII, regardless, the Middle East is going to become worse before it becomes better. Just as WWII was the war that brought about our empire's golden age, this new world war will be the very war that could break it. We are running out of allies in Europe and our footing with China is still uncertain (we're talking about one of the worst governments for human rights possibly becoming a US ally?). Mixed issues with North Korea are going to arise. The worst part of this is that we have no idea who the country's leaders will be during this time.. I doubt a republican, and I fear a democrat will raze the middle class into poverty with high taxation (shit, the US is already not a good place to have a large company headquartered, outsourcing is cheaper). China and India have economies growing exponentially which I don't see the US keeping up with. So, I conclude? The US is going to try to compensate for its recent fuckup by taxing, and this will raise living costs and force businesses out of the country.. a world war is going to develop out of the chaos we are a part of and at this we will become isolationist. A second Great Depression is to follow, and China will take the place of world superpower. Europe will have its hands full with extremist muslims and it is at this point we will declare WWIII, and the US empire will have fallen much like the Soviet Union. Its a grim future, and many of this could happen different ways, but THERE IS NO EASY SOLUTION TO THE MESS WE ARE IN! If anyone is to blame most of all for world instability, its the fucking Muslims and the US cannot and SHOULD NOT have picked a holy war yet we got sucked into it by the terrorist attacks of 9/11. ** Disclaimer: I did not take into effect any conspiracy theory relating to 9/11, nor do I like Republicans or Democrats. I see war as sometimes a necessary evil, but this is way different then anything before.

[Belisarius]

Apples and Oranges You can't compare an agricultural city-state Empire to an industrial national power. Perhaps the only way we are similar to the Roman Empire is that our military is overextended and having trouble employing nationals. That said America's world dominance will soon be over. In the future we will once again have a world of multiple powers, this time they'll be nuclear. Europe, China, and India are all emerging powers. Russia is in decline but it will probably come into conflict with the EU eventually and it has a lot of nukes. There's a possibility of a middle eastern nation or coalition of nations emerging as a significant power, but they are divided and completely dependent on oil for their wealth. Some african nation or union of nations might eventually become powerful but africa is still terribly divided and underdeveloped. Japan might become significant in Asia, and something might come out of south America. We're going to see a world more reminiscent of 1914 or 1939 than 1950 or 1991. Rather than all out war though, because all these nations will be nuclear, it might be more like several mini-cold-wars with hot episodes for control of satellite nations. America will still be the most powerful nation on the Earth for decades to come, it is not like Rome.

[TheUnknown]

We're going to see a world more reminiscent of 1914 or 1939[/b] No, we won't, colonization is over with. War isn't being fought for the same reason anymore as well. Sure, new world powers are going to rise, but these countries are the same that were third-world countries colonized by Europe at the time. I don't see a total collapse of America, like there was with Rome. It's just going to fall into place with its peers.

[Howie]

Apples and Oranges You can't compare an agricultural city-state Empire to an industrial national power. Perhaps the only way we are similar to the Roman Empire is that our military is overextended and having trouble employing nationals.[/b] We already have. Has anyone ever realized that you can compare apple to oranges? What we can and have compared is the abundance of power that one nation has over all the others. It is beginning to equal out with other world leading countries. When a country digresses as this one will surely do, there will be a lot of minor influences that will all add up to make, what I hope for, NOT to be a collapse. The USA has been riding on a high horse for some time now.

[Howie]

I found a great site that not only gives a pretty accurate details of the Roman Empire's collapse ..BUT it also at the end gives a guideline for the United state's possible pareils. http://killeenroos.com/1/Romefall.htm

[O'nus]

Firstly, I must propound that I do not adhere or advocate any theory on the correlelative nature of the Roman Empire and America. Secondly, and most importantly, Rome did not totally collapse. The way most people predict America to "fall" is actually exactly what happened to Rome; foreign countries invade, demoralise the military, integrate a new form of government, etc. However, surviving countries (ie. Byzantine) carry on the culture of the people. Not too mention that we still today carry a plethora of traditions that the Romans invented (ie. Christmas/Saturnalia) and that many still believe that the Roman Empire is in fact still active to this very day! So please do not exaggerate Rome's fall and compare it to the theorised destruction of America. I must also say that I have found these posts very interesting however mostly defensive. For those who are totally against the fall of America and see it as immaterial, do you perhaps see a similarity in the rise of the Roman Empire and America? Furthermore, the materialistic nature of Empires should not be considered the basis and sole foundation of an Empire as it is then necessary to accept many other materialistic philosophies which would, of course, make the enitre theory of the similarity null. In short - if you believe that the technological dissimilarities are the most important factors to differentiate Empires and countries, than you can not truly take part in the philosophical question of the similarity between countries because of your materialistic values which infer tangible variables as the sole defining characteristics of nature. ~

[TheUnknown]

Something to note as well, the US is not taking over land, might be invading, but it isn't extending itself like the Roman Empire did. Getting invaded from the outside is highly improbable, unless one factors in the beaners getting across the border

[Howie]

I have found also that our founding fathers drafted many Democratic ideals from the Roman empire. Because it was such an obvious success they drafted things that seemed to work well, such as a senate. They used history to try and learn from this. The modern world also inherited legal thinking from the Roman law. Now... skipping to todays USA, I found more alarming parallels. No country at one point had the nerve to attach Rome at their most powerful point. That is except for some very Bold (Pirates?) for lack of a better term. *Sorry I do not remember specifics. They attached the Buy way of sea a cit y and burned it. With an attach so close to Constantinople this created a state of unrest from the civilians. Much like the 9/11 attacks. What issues was their resulting actions that led to the very freedoms they had derived. They began to delude civilians rights. The USA is doing today through Things like the Patriot act Habeas corpus, unwarranted phone tapping, and other things begin to dissolve the foundation that was enacted for a free democratic republic. The Roman Empire also contributed its form of government, which influences various constitutions including those of most European countries, and that of the United States. Governing a vast territory, the Romans developed the science of public administration to an extent never before conceived nor necessary, creating an extensive civil service and formalized methods of tax collection. The western world today derives its intellectual history from the Greeks, but it derives its methods of living, ruling and governing from those of the Romans. Firstly, I must propound that I do not adhere or advocate any theory on the correlelation nature of the Roman Empire and America.[/b] I feel there is strong evidence to support this parallel. There is through time obvious variable that come into play though..