What Is Suffering?

[Patrick]

As an aspiring neuroscientist, one of my (unlikely) ambitions is to eradicate pain, and replace it with some sort of system that simply alerts the person in question to bodily harm. Also, if somehow the mind could be manipulated to find extreme pleasure in a simple thing like stroking your hair. However this raises some philosophical questions: how will human's cope with no pain? We know that depression is more prevalent in modern culture because the human mind is not evolved to cope with modern life, so the small stresses get blown out of proportion, and we overlook the things we should be greatful for, like good health and life expectancy. Depression sets in as we ignore the advantages of modern life and focus on the small inconveniences. So if suffering is eradicated, and pleasure is accessible by everyone at anytime, what if the periods of slightly less happinness become periods of suffering? What if we start blowing it out of proportion again, and getting depressed when we're not stroking our hair? What if suffering is an essential part of human existence and we can't avoid it? Would the solution to be to make humans feel a constant and unchanging level of happinness? Does that not destroy our humanity? What do you think?

[ExoByte]

Suffering isn't only limited to pain. Besides, we need pain. Pain lets us know we're alive, and it also lets us know where something is wrong. If you accidently get a bad cut on your leg and it gets infected, and you never notice. It'll go unchecked for a while and could end up killing you. I for one enjoy pain. Not like its a good thing, and its not like I cut myself or purposely infict it. No, thats just stupid in my opinion. But if I do get hurt, and do feel pain, its a good thing to me. It lets me know Im alive. It, again as I said, also lets me know where the damage was done so it can be repaired. But again, suffering isn't only limited to pain. Suffering can be mental or emotional as well.

[Ne-yo]

I agree with ExoByte Suffering is displayed on a vase area of levels within creatures. Humans actually experiences significant emotional pain/distress/agony/suffering from the fact of deprivation of some natural want. This emotional agony would be the same kind of agony experienced by the humans at death, but be due not to deprivation of air (as in suffocation), which is the normal suffering of predation, but rather to some kind of deprivation of "wanted life" like perhaps disappointment or frustration or intense despair. That is, the suffering is a conscious consequence of the awareness of deprivation of some higher-order concept (life).

[Howie]

By my answer being so short, I don't wish to take anything from the above responses. Suffering is an experience. That sounds too simple. But if looked at as such, that is what it is. Comparable to any function of a human, it is subject to many changes and variables. Depending how each individual conceptualizes and perceives any given experience, determines what suffering is to a specific subject. I hope this does not sound like a big play on words. I really think it hits it's mark. That to me describes suffering. Your ambitious goals ( ) compiled with a tremendous amount of human nature that can be put into question, makes this a very complicated topic for discussion. Nice topic. There is a lot more to address.

[Moonbeam]

We know that depression is more prevalent in modern culture because the human mind is not evolved to cope with modern life, so the small stresses get blown out of proportion, and we overlook the things we should be greatful for, like good health and life expectancy. Depression sets in as we ignore the advantages of modern life and focus on the small inconveniences. [/b] So true. But people evolved to never be happy with their current situation, to always want more, to always compare themselves with those they think have it better. This causes eternal struggle. Imagine if everyone was always happy, nobody would get anything done. So if suffering is eradicated, and pleasure is accessible by everyone at anytime, what if the periods of slightly less happinness become periods of suffering? What if we start blowing it out of proportion again, and getting depressed when we're not stroking our hair? What if suffering is an essential part of human existence and we can't avoid it? Would the solution to be to make humans feel a constant and unchanging level of happinness? [/b] I don't think that would work. They would find something to be unhappy about. Or else just lay around doing this happy-thing until they degenerated. Does that not destroy our humanity? [/b] Probably. But good luck.

[pj]

So true. But people evolved to never be happy with their current situation, to always want more, to always compare themselves with those they think have it better. This causes eternal struggle. Imagine if everyone was always happy, nobody would get anything done. [/b] Interesting way to look at it. There are very different ways of being unhappy. At the risk of sounding like a sap, I am an extremely happy, contented individual. At the same time, there are things I desire to improve - not out of unhappiness with where I am, so much, but simply because I want to achieve more. This is true in business, in the arts I am involved in, in my relationships and in simple enjoyment of the moment and day. In all of these areas and more - including lucid dreaming - I'm always looking toward the next level. Suffering is motive, indeed, but it is far from the only motivation for improvement. I do it out of enjoyment and something else - something far bigger that gets into the spiritual realm. I've seen a lot of suffering. Thankfully, very little of it has been my own, and I have been in a position to mitigate some of it. In that, too, I look toward the next level.

[Oneironaut Zero]

Just about as short as Howetzer's answer, I'd have to say: Suffering is relative. To ellaborate: Any deviation from a pleasurable norm could be labelled as suffering, whether it covers the span of a month, a lifetime or a couple of seconds. I don't think that there is any feasible way to eliminate suffering, technologically, because, no matter what level of suffering we are able to eliminate, any depravity from that level of lack of suffering (which will, inevitably surface, if you ask me) could then be called suffering. If we were to eliminate physical pain/suffering, emotional pain/suffering will still exist. If we were to eliminate them both, there is still financial "suffering," creative "suffering" (writer's block, for example), etc. etc. It all depends on how the individual defines their own levels of suffering. Honestly, I think the only possible (so far) counter to suffering is "acceptance," aside from an, as yet inconceivable, forcing of an infinite means of "happiness" upon humanity that you mentioned, but even if that were to some how exist, I think it would only be another manner of acceptance. That is to say, even if someone would be aware of something that would, otherwise, cause them suffering, they would either find, or be forced into, an acceptance of that particular something, thereby negating their suffering from it. This may already be possible through what many call "enlightenment," but that doesn't make it any easier to attain. I feel, though, it may be more effectively attained gradually, through experience, than to be somehow "activated" in the human psyche by any artificial means. [Edit: But, going back up and reading some more of the replies; as Moonbeam implied, an extreme level of acceptance of all things could lead to a stagnation of individual development. No one would strive to be anything more than they already are, because they are already in acceptance of everything about their life.] Definitely something worth further study into, though.

[Moonbeam]

At the risk of sounding like a sap, I am an extremely happy, contented individual. At the same time, there are things I desire to improve - not out of unhappiness with where I am, so much, but simply because I want to achieve more. This is true in business, in the arts I am involved in, in my relationships and in simple enjoyment of the moment and day. In all of these areas and more - including lucid dreaming - I'm always looking toward the next level. [/b] No I don't think it is sappy, but I think you are in a minority. I am happy because I realize how good I've had it compared to like 99.9999% of all the beings that have ever lived, even if I died right now. Gratitude (to fate?) is essential I think. But there is always that existential background of suffering that makes me feel like a sap for being happy. Can't win...probably a lot comes down to genetics anyway, but I do think people can help themselves with (goals to work towards? a 12-step program? religion? keeping busy and not thinking too much? helping other people?) something other than focusing on what is wrong or lacking with them. Helping people figure out what makes them happy, rather than inventing Soma (is that the drug in Brave New World ?) or brain-wave electrode things or whatever, might work better at decreasing the suffering level. Actually I heard a guy on NPR talking about this, forgot his name, and he has researched what people say makes them happy, and what really does make them happy, and they don't turn out to be the same thing. Interesting.

[pj]

But there is always that existential background of suffering that makes me feel like a sap for being happy. [/b] Time to re-read "The Virtue of Selfishness", Moonbeam. If you haven't read it, do yourself a favor. (From what I've seen of your political and social leanings, you are going to find a kindred spirit in Ayn Rand if you haven't already.) And that's from the lips of a "mystic". Imagine what a real Objectivist might suggest!

[♥Mark]

Suffering is waiting for Maddox to update.

[Moonbeam]

Time to re-read "The Virtue of Selfishness", Moonbeam. If you haven't read it, do yourself a favor. (From what I've seen of your political and social leanings, you are going to find a kindred spirit in Ayn Rand if you haven't already.) And that's from the lips of a "mystic". Imagine what a real Objectivist might suggest! [/b] Hey, I'm complex, can't I be a libertarian and feel the pain too? I know, I know, I stare at her picture on my coffee mug every morning and wonder where I went wrong. She was so harsh, but she had to be I guess. The ideal and the reality are never the same, gotta go for the extreme to move it just a little, always ask for more than you really want, right?

[taltho]

Honestly, I think the only possible (so far) counter to suffering is "acceptance," aside from an, as yet inconceivable, forcing of an infinite means of "happiness" upon humanity that you mentioned, but even if that were to some how exist, I think it would only be another manner of acceptance. That is to say, even if someone would be aware of something that would, otherwise, cause them suffering, they would either find, or be forced into, an acceptance of that particular something, thereby negating their suffering from it.[/b] I've been through more pain than i care to elaborate on and I know that's true. Can't win...probably a lot comes down to genetics anyway, but I do think people can help themselves with (goals to work towards? a 12-step program? religion? keeping busy and not thinking too much? helping other people?) something other than focusing on what is wrong or lacking with them. Helping people figure out what makes them happy, rather than inventing Soma (is that the drug in Brave New World ?) or brain-wave electrode things or whatever, might work better at decreasing the suffering level. Actually I heard a guy on NPR talking about this, forgot his name, and he has researched what people say makes them happy, and what really does make them happy, and they don't turn out to be the same thing. Interesting.[/b] This is also very true. Form an experience level, understanding pain is difficult. I doubt it can be eradicated. If it where possible to take my pain away I don't think I'd let you cause of the experiential-value I've gained from that pain. because of my pain I am who I am, I understand what I do and know what I know.

[3FLryan]

Suffering is relative.

[pj]

Hey, I'm complex, can't I be a libertarian and feel the pain too? I know, I know, I stare at her picture on my coffee mug every morning and wonder where I went wrong. She was so harsh, but she had to be I guess. The ideal and the reality are never the same, gotta go for the extreme to move it just a little, always ask for more than you really want, right? [/b] *smile* You've pretty well nailed it. Suffering... the endurance of pain, be it physical, emotional or spiritual. The suffering I choose to accept responsibility for and act on is the suffering of innocents. People end up enduring things they genuinely have no control over, like when children go hungry because their parents are either too stupid or fucked up to feed or care for them, or when a people's government is too corrupt to allow them to even fend for themselves. There's a lot of other suffering too - suffering by choice. Most I know who are suffering in this way aren't even willing to accept that they are making the choices - but they are. That suffering comes from having a problem with reality. I feel and accept no obligation or responsibility to those whose choices bring on their suffering. It isn't my job to bring them enlightenment or reprieve - and in many cases those who do try to bring them reprieve are causing more harm than good by strengthening the delusion. Here in the US, from my experience, the vast majority of suffering is by choice. That is not so in many other places in the world.

[Moonbeam]

If it where possible to take my pain away I don't think I'd let you cause of the experiential-value I've gained from that pain. because of my pain I am who I am, I understand what I do and know what I know. [/b] We'd still have a lot of pain of psychological type, we'd still be unhappy. But having no physical pain would be great. Just imagine the moment of dying, the heart stops, the lungs don't work, the brain is slowly dying and you can still feel, this is the moment of excrutiating pain! Death could be peaceful. [/b] The suffering I choose to accept responsibility for and act on is the suffering of innocents. People end up enduring things they genuinely have no control over, like when children go hungry because their parents are either too stupid or fucked up to feed or care for them, or when a people's government is too corrupt to allow them to even fend for themselves. [/b] I think you guys ^^^have got it figured out. OK, Pensive Patrick, get to work! We need you! Here in the US, from my experience, the vast majority of suffering is by choice. [/b] Totally.

[Ne-yo]

Suffering includes the emotional distress (the actual experiencing of suffering) of the animal, when it realizes that its legitimate (part of its nature) desire is not going to be granted or is being denied (e.g., disappointment, frustration). The emotional consequences of deprivation of natural desires. So what about suffering in the wild where animals are prey on all levels. Wouldn't suffering in predation become the component as being normally used as physical pain? (and sometimes also a mental component) invoked by the death/predation event. It generally has nothing to do with an animal being aware that it's natural want to live is being violated by a predator on approach to terminate his existence. What it consciously experiences at death would not be in any way related to some deprivation idea. (At a purely practical level, the real suffering of the moment would easily drown out any semi-reflective thought such as this. The animal would not have any experience of "being deprived of life"it would only be experiencing the actual pain of the physiological processes and concomitant emotional states. Now the questions that should be included, should be.. To what extent do animals have a conscious experience of "deprivation of natural wants"? To what extent is it warranted to call this conscious experience "suffering"? Is this type/extent of suffering adequate to fuel a "problem of natural evil"? Suffering and deprivation being directly associated to natural wants. So what are natural wants? How are they different from acquired wants or non-natural wants? To what extent is a person behavior reducible to these natural wants? What would constitute deprivation of such a want? Would this deprivation be experienced at a conscious level? To what extent are animals conscious at all, and specifically conscious of these issues?

[Neruo]

Good question: What IS suffering? Often I look at sad people, dieing animals, people that lost their families (on tv), and I feel BAD for them. I really hate the fact that there is so much pain in the world. Then again, sometimes I think: What does it matter? After all, pain is just a system we have to keep us alive in certain situations. We experience it as something that isn't good, and we even experience it isn't good if we see other people having pain. But the conscious to make us feel is just there by evolution. If you look at the universe on a global scale, if you think about the universe outside of human conscious, what really do feelings matter? Well good thing that I can only partially think like that, because of course I have feelings to, and could never kill someone 'because really, what does it matter'. But past that personal concious, nothing that happens really matters (objectively). And even if you CAN prevent all the pain in the world, maybe every possible option in the galaxy has it's own universe/dimension. Like everything is happening in every possible way at the same time, and we just jump from dimension to dimension and time and things move. That wouldn't mean it wouldn't matter at all. Anyhow, I also made a topic a year back or so about what-if-we-put-everyone-on-heroin-24/7 or something. I mean really, if you could let robots do everything, and keep us alive, wouldn't you create the most happy people by putting everyone of heroin, or some better drug, or actually change their brains physically, so they would all ways be as happy as possible? And then again, would it matter or you had 10000 people 100% happy or 1 person? I came to conclude that happiness and suffering and such all do matter, but subjectively, to me. Objectively it means nothing really. Still, I would love to cure the world of hate, pain and suffering

[Burns]

Also, if somehow the mind could be manipulated to find extreme pleasure in a simple thing like stroking your hair.[/b] Actually, I think my mind may already be manipulated to find extreme pleasure in someone stroking my hair. It's hypnotizing to me and I'll usually fall asleep within a minute or so. Anyway, about suffering, I agree with Moonbeam and the others that emotional suffering is necessary to some degree for people to grow and get stronger, otherwise everyone would be walking around smiling idiots and not strive for anything better. Physical suffering is different. If analgesics can't be employed, what else is there to do? Especially if the person doesn't have the money or means to do anything. The extended physical suffering would exacerbate emotional suffering, which is a hard depression spiral to work your way out of at that point.

[Patrick]

I think you guys ^^^have got it figured out. OK, Pensive Patrick, get to work! We need you! Totally. [/b] Don't hold your breath... Thanks for all the response.

[Nyx]

Also, if somehow the mind could be manipulated to find extreme pleasure in a simple thing like stroking your hair.[/b] One word, Ecstasy lol. Sorry I just found that funny.

[EagleEye]

Pain is part of the human experience, as it is with all living creatures that have the ability to sense pain, discomfort, hunger, and the like. It is as natural as pleasure and has a legitimate role in survival. To eliminate it would be to disrupt the checks and balances that we've developed while interacting with our environment. Suffering is a symptom with many causes, those natural to the environment (flooding, drought, etc.) and those caused by human actions/emotions. Eliminating suffering completely is impossible because there's no way to control every possible cause of it. Even so, there is merit in preventing the causes of and treating suffering when it's actually within our limited power to do so. Moreover, there's no way to prevent someone from interpreting any particular experience as painful. I agree with 3FLryan in that suffering is relative in this sense. How suffering is defined and coped with varies a great deal between cultures and individuals. For some people, tolerating and working through physical and emotional pain builds personal virtue: toughness, patience, stoicism, and courage. For others, it breaks them down or destroys them. How can any of us really predict whether we'd fall into the former or the latter?

[sognoacolori]

The suffering I choose to accept responsibility for and act on is the suffering of innocents. People end up enduring things they genuinely have no control over, like when children go hungry because their parents are either too stupid or fucked up to feed or care for them, or when a people's government is too corrupt to allow them to even fend for themselves. There's a lot of other suffering too - suffering by choice. Most I know who are suffering in this way aren't even willing to accept that they are making the choices - but they are. That suffering comes from having a problem with reality. [/b] Interesting. In my experience MOST suffering is an emotional one. Even on bodily pain i put a huge amount of mental pain in the form of feelings and thoughts, and doing so i double the burden. Trying to avoid bodily or mental pain is another mental pain, that's what i mean. Staying with things and accepting life as it is, whatever it brings me, is a healthy way out. And that's exactly where choice comes to play.

[slimslowslider]

Good thinking batmen! I love reading these posts - I find myself agreeing/disagreeing with everythying which all leads me to question everything - very healthy!!! In Bhuddist terms, suffering and pain are distinct in that pain happens in the present - it is 'real' (as real as it can be when ALL is illusion), suffering is due to attachment - fear of the future, regrets about the past, cravings for things that you don't have and which won't satisfy anyway etc. Enlightenment is being in the present with no desires for things to be other than they are - so you can still feel pain but not suffering. Presumably even pain is lessened somwhat becausese there would be no fear that it might get worse/ never stop/ lead to death/ happen again/ 'always happens to me!' etc etc...