Thread: ∞ my illusion ∞

Originally Posted by Koŝmaro

Is your perceiving something indubitable proof that it exists?

I would say so. It exists as it is, until we learn more. Or unless we already know all the answers.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

For certain, the crib does not need the baby.

The crib can sit empty for vast stretches of time and not care.

Over time the crib can hold many generations of unique individuals , yet itself remain completely the same.

When a baby grows to know its-self it leaves the crib and the crib gets shoved into the closet. The crib doesnt care. It remains there content in the closet. waiting for yet another generation.

"Does the baby need the crib?"

I'm not sure. As a baby, before it grows to know its-self, does it know anything of needing? ..and after it knows its-self the crib no longer seems relavant. Or is it?

Not sure if this applies to the rest of the thread but I have an issue with your post. Quintessentially, the crib would not exist without the baby, therefore the crib needs the baby.

Originally Posted by Merlock

I know what I want to know (I don't believe, if I don't know something, I don't care about it.)
In essence, that's why I'm my own being no matter what. Not part of any other being.
If the foot grew conscious and decided to leave, it wouldn't be up to me to let it leave or not. It would harm me if I stood in its way, it would use its own power and if it didn't have enough...it would find it.

Each of us has ultimate potential but we live limited lives because ultimate existence (having ultimate power to do anything and ultimate knowledge of all) is useless. There's no point. Thus if we want more power -- we find a way to gain it. We are never stranded. We are all powerful. But the constructive limits of the world are there to give life meaning and thus mean we have to find a way to gain any kind of power.

So what you're thinking is that if the foot grew conscious it would still depend on me infinitely. But it would have ultimate potential. Thus it might be "stuck" with me for some time but with that potential, as a conscious self-aware being, it would be able to gain enough power to separate itself without caring about me in the least and survive on its own.

Do you have evidence of this "ultimate potential?" While we're at it, please show evidence for "ultimate knowledge" and "absolute reality."

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Not sure if this applies to the rest of the thread but I have an issue with your post. Quintessentially, the crib would not exist without the baby, therefore the crib needs the baby.

The crib is the baby.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Do you have evidence of this "ultimate potential?" While we're at it, please show evidence for "ultimate knowledge" and "absolute reality."

Ultimate potential -- You learned to draw because you are a conscious self-aware being capable of learning.

Ultimate knowledge -- is...ultimate knowledge. Knowledge of all things. It's not a thing in itself. Having "ultimate knowledge" just means knowing everything about all of existence at the same time. But having ultimate knowledge is senseless because it brings no new experiences, thus the need for constructive lives such as the ones we lead.

And absolute reality -- I think you took that out of context a bit. I said that what we perceive is real. Everything that exists is real. Our thoughts are real, are they not? Not that I'm too fond of the Harry Potter series after finishing it but it has some wise quotes in it, such as: "Of course it's happening in your head Harry, but why on earth should that mean it isn't real?"

Yes, that allows for the Brain in a Vat theory, the above quote. But even that doesn't matter. Because if we don't know something, it doesn't concern us. What concerns us is our goals. Curiosity of existence isn't a meaningful goal. It's just a reaction to fear of the unknown but there's a different reaction that can quell that fear too: knowing that each of us is all-powerful, that we have ultimate potential...so then why does it matter if we don't know something? We can find anything out if we gain a need to do so. Until then...what's the point?

Although I appreciate the compliment, trying to butter me up won't get you anywhere. My drawing abilities are not reflective of 'ultimate potential' by a long shot. In fact, they show a very finite potential, which is limited by my current lifespan, and therefore the time available to practice.

'ultimate knowledge,' according to modern science is impossible. If you were to have any evidence for it, you would blow the roof off of all of the most up to date scientific theories about our physical world. Where is your evidence?

How do you know that what you percieve is real? It is very easy to allow you to perceive something that is not real in the classical sense. Are you claiming that by simply believing you've seen something, makes it real? Wouldn't this mean that thoughts effect reality, as Cloud seems to be alluding to?

Originally Posted by ClouD

The crib is the baby.

hardy har har.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Although I appreciate the compliment, trying to butter me up won't get you anywhere. My drawing abilities are not reflective of 'ultimate potential' by a long shot. In fact, they show a very finite potential, which is limited by my current lifespan, and therefore the time available to practice.

'ultimate knowledge,' according to modern science is impossible. If you were to have any evidence for it, you would blow the roof off of all of the most up to date scientific theories about our physical world. Where is your evidence?

How do you know that what you percieve is real? It is very easy to allow you to perceive something that is not real in the classical sense. Are you claiming that by simply believing you've seen something, makes it real? Wouldn't this mean that thoughts effect reality, as Cloud seems to be alluding to?

It's not a compliment. You're not seeing the point.
Fine, let's not take something as usual as art. Say, I want to learn how to combust a fireball in the palm of my hand bypassing the laws of physics. I can learn to do so. Just because you don't know how to do something and just because it isn't public knowledge, doesn't mean it is impossible. Because nothing is impossible. One just needs to find a way to realise a goal.

Ultimate knowledge and science? Who cares about science? We're not talking about the physical body here, we're talking about the mind. You could have ultimate knowledge. You could know all there is to know of existence. That would be in your mind, nothing to do with your physical body, your brain, etc. Or do you think "existence" just means this world? This physical universe with stars, planets and so on?

As for reality, perhaps I don't even fully understand what the debate over reality is (reality in its "classical sense"), since I don't care whether something is real or not seeing how it doesn't concern me at the moment. So I won't argue my point on that any further, my stance being: I don't care.

What business do you have in any discussion if you can't back up your broad assertions with any scrape of evidence, and yet emphatically deny what someone else has said? You have effectively said, "no you're wrong" and then nothing else meaningful.

What evidence? If you want something, you can attain it.
There's evidence of that in everything you do.

The world is constructive, not limiting.
Anything is possible but everything requires a way to be realised.
Though at the same time there is a way to realise absolutely anything.

What proof do you want of that aside what I showed you of your own efforts in my first reply above? Aside from everything we do every day? Saying anything is impossible is ignorant. One can't deny something is possible just because it hasn't presented itself to the world. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't.

If you choose to limit yourself to "evidence", then do so.
The point being that what you want is more important than anything anyone might say or anything you might see at first glance. We are conscious self-aware beings. If you want to limit yourself, do so. But don't ask for others to condescend themselves into thinking that we have limits. The world is constructive and has "laws" but just because one law exists, doesn't mean there is no way around it, an utterly different method to achieve the same goal.

In essence: lack of knowledge doesn't justify your claims. And claims of anything being impossible are just that: lack of knowledge of how to achieve it.

So basically, any of us is capable of having 'ultimate knowledge.' With the right knowledge we could attain anything we want. If in the event of not having what one wants, the reason is only because they do not yet know how to attain it. Ultimate knowledge would give them ability to attain what they want. Nobody wants ultimate knowledge.

Have I described your contradictory, baseless beliefs accurately? I want that I have; therefore it must be true.

Originally Posted by Merlock

In essence: lack of knowledge doesn't justify your claims. And claims of anything being impossible are just that: lack of knowledge of how to achieve it.

Such would seem to be a product of the mind being caged, or in a box. All we know is what we are used to seeing from inside this box.

Now if the sides of this box were to become transparent, that would , must, change the whole picture and understanding of what is insidie the box and how things get into the box and out of the box.

To those inside the box , others who transcend the common held limitations and bring things in and out of the box, such would seem like "magic". Attempts to explain the "mechanics" of the percieved "magic" to those whos minds are still stuck in the non transparent box would be more or less fruitless. Because the others cannot see or comprhend, does not mean those "mechanics" do not exist.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

So basically, any of us is capable of having 'ultimate knowledge.' With the right knowledge we could attain anything we want. If in the event of not having what one wants, the reason is only because they do not yet know how to attain it. Ultimate knowledge would give them ability to attain what they want. Nobody wants ultimate knowledge.

Have I described your contradictory, baseless beliefs accurately? I want that I have; therefore it must be true.

No. "I want something, therefore I will make it so".
Everything is "true" in itself. Nothing is impossible due to that very phrase in the quotes: if you want something to be true, you make it so.

There is no independent reality that forces itself upon us. There are only laws set in place to make the world constructive, not something that can indefinitely limit us.

There can be a Christian god in this world. He can have immense power and have created the planet we live on and all that. But any of us can gain more power (ability) and knowledge than that god and become more powerful. No one is ultimately more powerful than anyone else (by anyone, I mean conscious self-aware beings like us). Only at any given moment.

But I'm tired of repeating myself. And I suppose I've made a mistake of even discussing things this far as I usually tend to withhold contributions to such topics as much as possible. Perhaps if you reread and gain enough ambition, stop condescending yourself and perhaps gain a goal that has true meaning to you, enough that you won't let anyone or anything stop you, perhaps then you'll understand the meaning behind all that I've said. Perhaps you won't. I won't argue my stance any further.

If you believe that to be true, then I can convince you of the existence of a collective unconscious using your own belief system.

If in the event that it is possible to alter the substance of reality, any individual is capable of it, and every individual is acting independently of each other with their own goals and desires, then conflicting sets of reality paradigms would arise. It is possible that my desire is that you cease to exist. Obviously you desire to continue your existence, and so whose desire or belief would win the paradox?

Now in my opinion, yours would of course. If it is possible to control your reality with your beliefs but the world is as concrete, and homogenous as it is, then this means one of two things; Either the original premise of all individuals acting as independent entities is wrong, or the strength of the belief is directly proportionate to the veracity of the truth that is reflected in reality. This of course then, would change my beliefs on the manifestation of my desires. The latter would cause only the most probable desires to arise; that is, the ones that most of us share. This causes dominant belief systems to become the standard for reality. This standard, which becomes the truth for everyone in a very literal sense will behave as a single entity, operating in the best interest of the whole (population). Of course, this entity is most popularly known as the 'collective unconscious.'

So you see, the only option your beliefs seem to offer is that you have contradicted yourself and you don't really disagree with Cloud at all.

Gah, fine, one more post.

Yes, we are all independent and yes, we are all capable of anything but you also missed what I said about the possibility of the Christian god existing.

Different beings have different amounts of power at any given moment.

If your desire were to kill me, you'd first train to have enough power to overwhelm me and then find me and attack me. But I have the potential to have as much or more power, hence I could also train and either have enough power to stop you, not enough and die, or have more and kill you instead.

In this way competition between people in our every-day lives shows the model of ultimate potential just like the example of you training drawing skills.

As for making me cease to exist...perhaps that's the one thing that is impossible. Because everything exists...something that doesn't exist is nothing so who is to say anything ever vanishes into non-existence all together? Perhaps existence is reflected in physics in our physical world: where energy cannot be created or destroyed.

But now I'll definitely stop. Not just because I'm tired of arguing my point, not just because there is knowledge I do not wish to share with others but because I never have any desire to ponder that, which is so far beyond our every-day lives. I don't care about the pinnacle of existence. I only care about our ultimate potential because it helps me achieve my goals in this life, here and now.

Originally Posted by Merlock

As for making me cease to exist...perhaps that's the one thing that is impossible.

Relatively, as I think about this, it is possible if Xaqaria really wants this to happen, you become erased from his memory. Then you don't exist, in his world.

Originally Posted by really

Relatively, as I think about this, it is possible if Xaqaria really wants this to happen, you become erased from his memory. Then you don't exist, in his world.

Yet, not a standard reality.
Though, no-one knows if such even exists.

Whatever we are, we will always be alone.
We will be the only ones dwelling in our thoughts,.

I do though, think there is a standard reality.
The mind being the interpreter.

If a person is born blind, does that mean there is no such thing as sight?

Originally Posted by ClouD

Yet, not a standard reality.
Though, no-one knows if such even exists.

Whatever we are, we will always be alone.
We will be the only ones dwelling in our thoughts,.

I do though, think there is a standard reality.
The mind being the interpreter.

If a person is born blind, does that mean there is no such thing as sight?

An intiguing thought has arrived.....

Sight is , as is all aspects of awareness, always present regardless of the physical manifestation

If blindness in the body sets in, the imediate response is to try and "fix" the physical part that no longer appears to be working

However, if the blindness is indeed only the physical manifestation, would it not be more prudent to "fix" the problem at its source rather than at the manifestation?

The next logical questions then is how?

How does one effect (not affect) anything in the material plane?

We are truly blind in that we are caught up in affecting the things around us, thinking and working with the material itself, going at it as though we ourselves are this same material essence.

To effect the material one would then need to center ones thoughts outside the material in some way. But in what way? Thats the question.

The "language" or catalyst of affecting is thought in the manner of shape and form.

What would be the " language" or catalyst of effecting?

The bridge beteen physical and non-physical is the mind.

Thinking, is the very process of manifestation.

Originally Posted by ClouD

The bridge between physical and non-physical is the mind.

Thinking, is the very process of manifestation.

Yes, Yes..

....but not just any thinking will do, not if the intent is for what apears to bypass the physical laws of the material universe, IE Effecting. To do so the thinking, or focusing therof has to be outside of that physical realm of perception.
REad what Merlock said earlier:

The world is constructive and has "laws" but just because one law exists, doesn't mean there is no way around it, an utterly different method to achieve the same goal.

Working to bring things about in the constructive by the constructive is "affecting", which is thought focused directly on the constructive material.

I am looking at, if not already using, the "utterly different method to achieve the same goal". Thought focused indirectly. I am just trying to reach a definition of "indirectly".

Originally Posted by ClouD

If a person is born blind, does that mean there is no such thing as sight?

Without being relative, I guess it is difficult to answer. If a person is born with sight, does that mean there is no such thing as blindness? Perhaps as the psychic ability which only some people seem to possess - Or should I say "have trusted"? Or "have learned"?

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I am looking at, if not already using, the "utterly different method to achieve the same goal". Thought focused indirectly. I am just trying to reach a definition of "indirectly".

Again, I am going to have to mention the brilliant text, The Master Key System. It states that within the laws of the world, thoughts are the cause and the outcome in the external world is the effect. If something is not working or "effecting" properly in the world, we must change the cause, hence change our way of thinking. That is not indirectly focused thought, you may be happy to hear.

Originally Posted by really

Again, I am going to have to mention the brilliant text, The Master Key System. It states that within the laws of the world, thoughts are the cause and the outcome in the external world is the effect. If something is not working or "effecting" properly in the world, we must change the cause, hence change our way of thinking. That is not indirectly focused thought, you may be happy to hear.

Started reading on it now.

Seems the same as the power of intention and the law of attraction.

I am finding alot of my view reflected in what I have read so far.

You know what I find interesting? I find it iteresting in how I see things and come to conclusions all the time only to find teachings and books already written on the things I have fouond within - after I found them. What is quite helpful in it happening this way is that I can instantly identify with the contents and subjects that I read. What I end up doing is sifting through the 99% I already am familiar with to find that 1% of clarity. Thats what I am doing now with the master key system you suggested.

Thanks

All I have to say is you hit the nail on my head when you say if I divide the world, then I divide myself.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Started reading on it now.

Seems the same as the power of intention and the law of attraction.

I am finding alot of my view reflected in what I have read so far.

You know what I find interesting? I find it iteresting in how I see things and come to conclusions all the time only to find teachings and books already written on the things I have fouond within - after I found them. What is quite helpful in it happening this way is that I can instantly identify with the contents and subjects that I read. What I end up doing is sifting through the 99% I already am familiar with to find that 1% of clarity. Thats what I am doing now with the master key system you suggested.

Thanks

No problem whatsoever.

Hey you might like to post here:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=44976

You already have, but things can change.