Thread: we will never understand

Originally Posted by JFK

I hate it when people that are talking about god or the universe say we cant understand the higher power. i really hope I'm not alone here but i can understand anything/everything (to an extent).

That is arrogant and stupid. To claim you can understand something that is potentially beyond you is contradictory. If there is a God, to claim to be able to understand it is arrogant beyond words. The universe is too vast to comprehend and therefore understand, there is absolutely too much in everything to be able to absorb. The human mind is powerful, but it does have its limits. There are numbers so large you can't imagine them, and there are things that make up this universe and in our lives ranging from the size of an atom to the size of the universe, from the laws that govern our universe, the the infinite number of choices that we choose from at every POINT in time and countless things more. To get a general idea of something is one thing, but to truly understand it is another. Our mind does have its limits, we are only human. We've built ourselves up and stuck ourselves on a pedestal claiming we're the best. We only think we can understand everything.

Originally Posted by JFK

The fact is it's lazy answer to a great acumulation of knowledge. Yes it is hard to imagine an emptyness light can't penetrate but we should not set the limites of what we can and can't do.

But there are limits to what we can and can't do. Tell me, can you sprout wings and fly into the cosmos of space at speeds faster than light? Exaggerated example but I hope you can understand that idea. We do have limits, its a truth that you should learn to accept.

Originally Posted by JFK

[1]The simpilest answer is normaly the right one (i.e.(what does that mean)[2]time is constant, there is no set limit on speed and, [3]if you go into a black hole you die there is no other side you get shreded and crushed) and that goes for all things.

[1] But it isn't always the right one. I love it when people use Occam's Razor to justify everything. The simplest answer may usually be the right one, but you know, sometimes its not.

[2] That is something we don't understand. We hardly can grasp the concept of time and we don't yet know the true workings of it. Maybe at some point we will understand it better, but at the moment it is beyond our reach. At the moment, we can't understand it fully, though we may later.

[3] Have you been in a black hole? Has anyone? Has anyone even been able to truly study one? We might not even fully know what they are yet. But I can't say anything I haven't already. See answer [2], and replace "time" with "black holes."

Besides, how can you understand everything when you can barely understand the concept of spelling and grammar? Some people might have difficulty understanding your post due to your lack of understanding of that concept.

I agree with Exo. To say we can understand everything is rediculas, there are things beyond our understanding and will never know.
Also, there is absolutly no way to understand god (if he exists...i don't believe in him/her/it/whatever though), if it exists there is
noway we can even grasp the things it can do, we will have been the created and limited in what we know. Just like if we made a robot, it would not understand us...it's a created robot.

Coming to terms with the idea that we'll never know everything doesn't mean you have to stop discussing things and exercising the mind. It doesn't mean you stop progressing. Just it's silly to commit to a belief without foundation and alter your whole lifestyle over it.

Originally Posted by JFK

I hate it when people that are talking about god or the universe say we cant understand the higher power. i really hope I'm not alone here but i can understand anything/everything (to an extent). The fact is it's lazy answer to a great acumulation of knowledge. Yes it is hard to imagine an emptyness light can't penetrate but we should not set the limites of what we can and can't do.

The simpilest answer is normaly the right one (i.e.(what does that mean)time is constant, there is no set limit on speed and, if you go into a black hole you die there is no other side you get shreded and crushed) and that goes for all things.

hugs and kisses

p.s. nothing like a good rant

You need to do some studying on physics and space. Black holes in particular.

Open your mind. I'm pretty sure in the old days they didn't think we'd be making giant flying birds to carry us through the sky either, and unless I naturally hallucinate, we have in fact made giant metal birds to carry us through the sky. Hell, they had a pretty hard time grasping the concept of a round earth.

Look, in the sky! it's superman, it's a turtle, no it'sametalbirdflyingthroughthesky
showingthosepeoplebackinthedayitspossible.

Originally Posted by JFK

I hate it when people that are talking about god or the universe say we cant understand the higher power. i really hope I'm not alone here but i can understand anything/everything (to an extent).

We are imperfect biological machines. Are you suggesting that nothing at all is beyond our processing power?

Find me the ten trillionth digit of pi, please. And hurry up about it.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

That is arrogant and stupid. To claim you can understand something that is potentially beyond you is contradictory. If there is a God, to claim to be able to understand it is arrogant beyond words. The universe is too vast to comprehend and therefore understand, there is absolutely too much in everything to be able to absorb. The human mind is powerful, but it does have its limits. There are numbers so large you can't imagine them, and there are things that make up this universe and in our lives ranging from the size of an atom to the size of the universe, from the laws that govern our universe, the the infinite number of choices that we choose from at every POINT in time and countless things more. To get a general idea of something is one thing, but to truly understand it is another. Our mind does have its limits, we are only human. We've built ourselves up and stuck ourselves on a pedestal claiming we're the best. We only think we can understand everything.


But there are limits to what we can and can't do. Tell me, can you sprout wings and fly into the cosmos of space at speeds faster than light? Exaggerated example but I hope you can understand that idea. We do have limits, its a truth that you should learn to accept.



[1] But it isn't always the right one. I love it when people use Occam's Razor to justify everything. The simplest answer may usually be the right one, but you know, sometimes its not.

[2] That is something we don't understand. We hardly can grasp the concept of time and we don't yet know the true workings of it. Maybe at some point we will understand it better, but at the moment it is beyond our reach. At the moment, we can't understand it fully, though we may later.

[3] Have you been in a black hole? Has anyone? Has anyone even been able to truly study one? We might not even fully know what they are yet. But I can't say anything I haven't already. See answer [2], and replace "time" with "black holes."

Besides, how can you understand everything when you can barely understand the concept of spelling and grammar? Some people might have difficulty understanding your post due to your lack of understanding of that concept.

1.) there is a differance between a perfect understanding and understanding to an EXTENT.

2.) yes we have built ourselves up, at some point in our past people thought that the sun was to complex to understand and now we have a good idea. the fact is that all of the things we take for granted started as an idea and the idea was different from what they beleved and put it down. So if some one has an idea about something they should not be looked down at and my idea is very simply we don't have limits (in our minds that is).

3.) why go after my grammer this forum is above that

4.) what do you mean black holes is constant

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I agree with Exo. To say we can understand everything is rediculas, there are things beyond our understanding and will never know.
Also, there is absolutly no way to understand god (if he exists...i don't believe in him/her/it/whatever though), if it exists there is
noway we can even grasp the things it can do, we will have been the created and limited in what we know. Just like if we made a robot, it would not understand us...it's a created robot.

again puting limits on us just because the robots we make now don't understand us does not mean they never will

Originally Posted by CymekSniper

You need to do some studying on physics and space. Black holes in particular.

Open your mind. I'm pretty sure in the old days they didn't think we'd be making giant flying birds to carry us through the sky either, and unless I naturally hallucinate, we have in fact made giant metal birds to carry us through the sky. Hell, they had a pretty hard time grasping the concept of a round earth.

is this for or my argument. I cant tell.


One thing i might want to add is if something that understands it perfectly explains the topic in detail then it is very easy to understand so we might not get it now but later it might seem oh so simple.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

We are imperfect biological machines. Are you suggesting that nothing at all is beyond our processing power?

Find me the ten trillionth digit of pi, please. And hurry up about it.

7

Originally Posted by JFK

1.) there is a differance between a perfect understanding and understanding to an EXTENT.

The sheer fact that we have the idea that there are things we can't even begin to comprehend, shows that there are things in this universe we can't begin to comprehend. How so you might ask? Well this statement here is effectively proof of that. You either don't understand what I just said or you do. If you do, then you understand that there are things we can't understand and it defies your entire principle. If you don't understand what I just said, I have just proven my point.

To assume we can understand everything is to assume we are the best. If something out there is beyond us, how can you say you can understand it? You can't seem to understand the simple idea that there might be things we can't understand.

I can't give you an idea and say we can't understand it because I have that idea in my head, but what we can't understand is something we can't imagine. Now its also difficult to understand not being able to imagine something now isn't it?

For example, our brains as tools cannot understand the other parts of the light spectrum. We understand why we can't see those colours, but we don't understand the colours themselves, we don't understand what they look like. But even that is a very simple ideal, in that its something we can try (and fail) to understand. There are things we can't even begin to try to understand because we simply can't imagine them. To prove this, imagine something you can't imagine right now and tell me everything about it.

2.) yes we have built ourselves up, at some point in our past people thought that the sun was to complex to understand and now we have a good idea. the fact is that all of the things we take for granted started as an idea and the idea was different from what they beleved and put it down. So if some one has an idea about something they should not be looked down at and my idea is very simply we don't have limits (in our minds that is).

Back to point one, the fact that you had to come up with the idea that we don't have limits, shows we have limits.

3.) why go after my grammer this forum is above that

Because how can one hope to believe you can understand everything if you can't understand the simple concept of spelling?

4.) what do you mean black holes is constant

What? You really don't understand. I didn't say Black Holes are constant...

[3] Have you been in a black hole? Has anyone? Has anyone even been able to truly study one? We might not even fully know what they are yet. But I can't say anything I haven't already. See answer [2], and replace "time" with "black holes."

[2] That is something we don't understand. We hardly can grasp the concept of time(Black Holes) and we don't yet know the true workings of it. Maybe at some point we will understand it better, but at the moment it is beyond our reach. At the moment, we can't understand it fully, though we may later.

again puting limits on us just because the robots we make now don't understand us does not mean they never will

Actually it does. A Robot can only be built up to how much we understand it, therefore, the most a Robot that we have created can be is equal to us or equal to our understanding of things.

Originally Posted by JFK

is this for or my argument. I cant tell.


One thing i might want to add is if something that understands it perfectly explains the topic in detail then it is very easy to understand so we might not get it now but later it might seem oh so simple.

Yes it is. It displays how people back then were unable to stretch their imaginations back then.

You mentioned that if you went into a black hole, you would be crushed. Some say black holes could be a way to go back in time. That statement of "going into a black hole would crush you" is close-minded or perhaps just ignorant. See my point?

Originally Posted by ExoByte

[COLOR=Blue]
Because how can one hope to believe you can understand everything if you can't understand the simple concept of spelling?

simple?
knife
pneumonia
E's are put on words at random
it's anything but simple

Actually its very simple. If you find it anything more than simple clearly you never paid attention in english class.

You also ignored everything else.

The O.P. is contradictory. To ever say, "I understand" is to put limits on your understanding. If you ever believe that you fully grasp the nature of your surroundings, then you have destroyed your ability to continue searching for the truth. Saying that you do not understand is not limiting. I personally intend to continue searching for greater understanding, but the only thing I can say for sure right now is that I could search for a billion lifetimes and still not grasp even a tiny fraction of 1% of all that there is.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The O.P. is contradictory. To ever say, "I understand" is to put limits on your understanding. If you ever believe that you fully grasp the nature of your surroundings, then you have destroyed your ability to continue searching for the truth. Saying that you do not understand is not limiting. I personally intend to continue searching for greater understanding, but the only thing I can say for sure right now is that I could search for a billion lifetimes and still not grasp even a tiny fraction of 1% of all that there is.

very well put but i am not talking about people saying "I don't understand" I'm talking about people saying "I cant understand". It is the people that stop looking for the truth that bug me

The search to grasp every tiny fraction of any thing is not what I'm talking about you have to get the big picture first and then work on what details you can

looking back i might want to change a bit of the thread. When I said i can understand anything/everything it should have stayed at anything.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Actually its very simple. If you find it anything more than simple clearly you never paid attention in english class.

You also ignored everything else.

Tell me about it, this crysis sandbox 2 editor is KILLING ME! I must have learned it 50 million times on both video tutorials and typed tutorials and it's still frusterating.

I think you understand not being able understand.

Black holes. I've studied them, and even come up with my own theory on what exactly happens on the other side of a black hole - does that mean I somewhat understand why black holes work they way they do? Not even close.

The universe is here, but can you somewhat understand why it's here? Or how it got here? Come up with as many theories as you wish, but all you have is a bunch of educated guesses.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Actually its very simple. If you find it anything more than simple clearly you never paid attention in english class.

Some people are smart but are just not good spellers because their brain doesn't work well in that area.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but you shouldn't judge someone's intelligence or education only by their spelling.

To the OP: humans are limited in what we know by the senses and brain that we evolved with, which were developed only to be successful in a very small part of the universe. Hence, there are probably many things we will never even know we don't know, and in that case couldn't begin to comprehend.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Some people are smart but are just not good spellers because their brain doesn't work well in that area.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but you shouldn't judge someone's intelligence or education only by their spelling.

Oh I don't disagree. I'm just trying to make a point. One who claims to be able to understand everything should be able to grasp that ideal should they not?

This mentality is very remniscient of pyrrhic skepticism. The type of reasoning that we cannot know anything including that we do not know anything.

Pyrrhic skeptics doubt everything. No proof is is enough and there is room for any sort of possibility.

This type of reasoning is used for various things. Typically it is used for things that have very little, or no, empirical groundings and, therefore, give the related individuals some sort of reasoning to harbor in order to keep the belief constant. ie. Pagan worshippers of Mithras held this doctrine for a dear long time, same with believers in Thor, etc.

What do you think...?
~

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Some people are smart but are just not good spellers because their brain doesn't work well in that area.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but you shouldn't judge someone's intelligence or education only by their spelling.

To the OP: humans are limited in what we know by the senses and brain that we evolved with, which were developed only to be successful in a very small part of the universe. Hence, there are probably many things we will never even know we don't know, and in that case couldn't begin to comprehend.

Sorta like how people way back before our technology could not imagine what the world would be like right now, or like us now and the future.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Oh I don't disagree. I'm just trying to make a point. One who claims to be able to understand everything should be able to grasp that ideal should they not?

That's true.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Sorta like how people way back before our technology could not imagine what the world would be like right now, or like us now and the future.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Pyrrhic skeptics doubt everything. No proof is is enough and there is room for any sort of possibility.

I think everyone should accept this sort of thinking - technically, no proof is enough, AND there is room for any possibility.

A BIG however, though - this depends on what you mean by a proof being 'enough'. It's fine if you mean 'enough to prove something', because we can never prove anything entirely. It's not fine if you mean 'enough to prove something beyond reasonable doubt'.

We can never know things for sure, but we can know that our theories appear to be useful in most cases. That's all we really ever need.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

I think everyone should accept this sort of thinking - technically, no proof is enough, AND there is room for any possibility.

A BIG however, though - this depends on what you mean by a proof being 'enough'. It's fine if you mean 'enough to prove something', because we can never prove anything entirely. It's not fine if you mean 'enough to prove something beyond reasonable doubt'.

We can never know things for sure, but we can know that our theories appear to be useful in most cases. That's all we really ever need.

Unfortunately, we do need some grounds in order to operate and understand our environment.

In this line of reasoning, the only way to be certain is to be a part of everything. By this I mean that what we debate about has to be part of you (you have to have consciousness of it) in order to be certain of it - and there can be no other way to accept it as a nature of something.

I do not advocate pyrrhic skepticism.
~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sb1N...eature=related

I never watched what time it started but watch at about 2 minutes into it. If this is real this is exactly why we will never understand. The whole travel to other realitys part, i can't even understand the concept besides "people here and there". If this is true, IF then this is totally mind blowing. He mentions good points about how the universe came to be...it just happened and we think something created it because that's how we work, we can't understand that there will be a non creator, it will be like "this does not compute". This can be true, i dunno, but he mentions on the first part how him and another guy were in different rooms with those big headphones on their ears and a guy talking to them both through them and they both saw the same thing and said the same things, but believe it if you want. Just a theory as the guy says with his book (The big TOE"Theory of Everything"). It's extremly long...11 parts in 10 minute sections (part 11 is 8 minutes though), but it's intresting what he has to say and more proof of it's impossible to know everything, there is too much.