Thread: Response to Pascal's Wager

Originally Posted by O'nus

We must approach the world from some point of view; you are forced to.

From an irrational "anything goes" point of view, we ought not to allow consistencies.

However, science is ever-changing and does allow newer ideas and modifications. So, there is flexibility.

Yes, I understand. That's why I shunned that belief into the back of my head, where it remains as an omnipresent truth.

That's why my point of view for life is an atheistic and an agnostic one (as a result of that nagging truth).

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Yes, I understand. That's why I shunned that belief into the back of my head, where it remains as an omnipresent truth.

That's why my point of view for life is an atheistic and an agnostic one (as a result of that nagging truth).

Makes sense. That is typically what I do to.

Approach everything skeptical but with some pragmatism, right? Sometimes, it just gets tiresome. You know, like when you go to Golden Griddle and remember the lousy crap-ass pancakes they made last time, but you think, "Well, they could be good today!" and you give it a chance, for the tenth time and it fails again.. so you're left thinking, at the 11th time, "Ohh.. maybe not.. I think I'll pass.. I'll make the pancakes myself, thanks."



~

I don't know about Golden Griddle or pancakes, but it's true

Originally Posted by O'nus

People can be passionate about anything. Have you not seen painters obsessed over their paintings? what about computer geeks? Video game nerds?

However, I hope to eventually show that my beliefs are not entirely resting on the opposition of something. I would best describe my beliefs as "Science" or "logic" because, in the field of science or logic, God does not exist yet (monotheistic wise, anyway).

O'nus i still don't think im grasping what you are trying to say. To me there is no logic in arguing against something that is not there and it is a waste of time. There is no empirical evidence to show that a God exists. I would understand if there was at least a bit of credible evidence that can be used for debate but right now all we really have is the bible and of course, people don't think the bible is any evidence what so ever. I just don't see the logic behind arguing over nothing.

Is that what you are getting to?

I will say have questioned my beliefs more than i ever have ever in my life. I don't really belive that there is a big old guy in the sky with a beard sitting on a throne surrounded by clouds and all the other religious clesheas. What i do belive is that God is a Form of static energy, much like the one you described in the Chaplain Tim thread. This Static energy is able to manipulate anything and everything like I.E time as this would ahve to be possible oif he was going to judge us.

│---Universe is created along with earth.
Creation
--Eternal Creator(God) ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑

That's where i am at right now.

i worte this quick because im going i to dinner. ill try to furthur elaborate if you need me to.

Originally Posted by Riot Maker

O'nus i still don't think im grasping what you are trying to say. To me there is no logic in arguing against something that is not there and it is a waste of time. There is no empirical evidence to show that a God exists. I would understand if there was at least a bit of credible evidence that can be used for debate but right now all we really have is the bible and of course, people don't think the bible is any evidence what so ever. I just don't see the logic behind arguing over nothing.

You don't think you're grasping what I am saying but then you basically say what I am saying, lol. No worries, keep what you said here in mind with my saying, "I agree" and maybe it will make sense.

I will say have questioned my beliefs more than i ever have ever in my life. I don't really belive that there is a big old guy in the sky with a beard sitting on a throne surrounded by clouds and all the other religious clesheas. What i do belive is that God is a Form of static energy, much like the one you described in the Chaplain Tim thread. This Static energy is able to manipulate anything and everything like I.E time as this would ahve to be possible oif he was going to judge us.

│---Universe is created along with earth.
Creation
--Eternal Creator(God) ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑

I agree, I think. I would like to see more elaboration if you would like.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

I think you are fringing on the nature vs nurture debate, hm?

Haha actually, that hadn't occurred to me, but I guess it does have that component to it.

Belief is not a choice. Lying to yourself about what you believe is.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Belief is not a choice. Lying to yourself about what you believe is.

Ha ha Nice UM
I read Pascal's wager and after considering it, your answer is what my mind came to rest on. I was going to post and I saw that you had responed. Thinking you would say the same thing, I read your post instead.

So yaaaa, what you said!

Can you truly lie to yourself? That's another question.

I think belief is a choice. It may be unnatural at first, but if you repeat to yourself every day that, for example, God exists, you will eventually start to truly believe. Otherwise, how could you explain religious people in general? Clearly, no one was born religious. But there do exist people who 100% believe in God.

Originally Posted by Howie

Ha ha Nice UM
I read Pascal's wager and after considering it, your answer is what my mind came to rest on. I was going to post and I saw that you had responed. Thinking you would say the same thing, I read your post instead.

So yaaaa, what you said!

Can you truly lie to yourself? That's another question.

Cool beans.

You can lie to yourself, but you cannot believe your own lie, deep down. However, you can ignore the fact that you don't believe it. That's what rationalizing is.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

I think belief is a choice. It may be unnatural at first, but if you repeat to yourself every day that, for example, God exists, you will eventually start to truly believe. Otherwise, how could you explain religious people in general? Clearly, no one was born religious. But there do exist people who 100% believe in God.

So, you could convince yourself that 2 + 2 = 5 or that you are a billionaire movie star? Try it. I bet you can't do it.

The fact that people have beliefs they did not have as babies does not prove that belief is a choice. It merely proves that belief is a development.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

I think belief is a choice. It may be unnatural at first, but if you repeat to yourself every day that, for example, God exists, you will eventually start to truly believe. Otherwise, how could you explain religious people in general? Clearly, no one was born religious. But there do exist people who 100% believe in God.

That's because they were indoctrinated usually at a young age. They learned it from their beginning. Yes, I know that's not always the case.
But in other cases religion does not satisfy their inquisition about life. You have to want to go on that journey.
Religious people are in need of some answers and religion gives them an etiquette answer. For some people religion does not suffice.

Originally Posted by Howie

That's because they were indoctrinated usually at a young age. They learned it from their beginning. Yes, I know that's not always the case.
But in other cases religion does not satisfy their inquisition about life. You have to want to go on that journey.
Religious people are in need of some answers and religion gives them an etiquette answer. For some people religion does not suffice.

Ok, so they were indoctrinated, meaning they were told to believe in God, so they started to tell themselves they believed in God, and then eventually they really did. They still made the choice to believe.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Ok, so they were indoctrinated, meaning they were told to believe in God, so they started to tell themselves they believed in God, and then eventually they really did. They still made the choice to believe.

No, they were told by people they looked way up to that God exists, so they believed it. There did not have to be a moment of choosing. I never had one, and I used to believe. I also never had a moment of choosing to believe otherwise. I just got bowled over by the explanation of how God does not answer the big question any more than the universe itself does.

I would rather believe in Pascal’s wager than to not. But I don't.
So if I go around repeating to myself that this wager is true then, I will eventually believe it?
Great. I look forward to it. I would rather be in heaven that just a pile of dirt.

Originally Posted by Howie

I would rather believe in Pascal’s wager than to not. But I don't.
So if I go around repeating to myself that this wager is true then, I will eventually believe it?
Great. I look forward to it. I would rather be in heaven that just a pile of dirt.

You would believe it if you did it for years, yes.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

You would believe it if you did it for years, yes.

Even if that were true, it would not mean all religious people start out telling themselves something they don't believe to be true and end up believing it because they told themselves it's true so many times. Where do you get that any way?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Even if that were true, it would not mean all religious people start out telling themselves something they don't believe to be true and end up believing it because they told themselves it's true so many times. Where do you get that any way?

What's the alternative?

Originally Posted by drewmandan

What's the alternative?

This...

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, they were told by people they looked way up to that God exists, so they believed it. There did not have to be a moment of choosing. I never had one, and I used to believe. I also never had a moment of choosing to believe otherwise. I just got bowled over by the explanation of how God does not answer the big question any more than the universe itself does.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

You would believe it if you did it for years, yes.

How many 2 or 2.5 or 3
I better get started!

What's the alternative?

To not beleive right?
Which your responce would be; that was your choice?



Maybe I do know where you are coming from.
At some point you want to be able to sit across the table from someone an ultimately say you are the one that is responsible for the choices you made. As a devout (fill in the blank) I have chosen this path of worship for me and my family and have complete faith in that choice. My father and his father’s father may have influenced me, however it is me that decided to choose this religion. The correct religion. I hold know one accountable other than myself.

An old Rush song comes to mind
Even though you may not decide you still have made a choice.

So given enough time and influence anyone is susceptible to brainwashing or would you label that making a choice?

Originally Posted by Howie

So given enough time and influence anyone is susceptible to brainwashing or would you label that it making a choice?

Even people who are brainwashed can choose to fight their brainwashers. If they choose to sit back and do nothing, that is a choice.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Even people who are brainwashed can choose to fight their brainwashers. If they choose to sit back and do nothing, that is a choice.

I think I remember in kindergarten when they were telling me about Santa clause that I said, "shit....Mo fo Aint no fat man gonna fit down no chimney>
And how would he go down if there was a fire burning?
why did I get shit for Christmas?
How can he be so many places.

I stood up in front of the entire class and said FIGHT this oppression. lol

I just don't agree.

On a serious note, as most of us came to realize Santa was not real, or the Santa that we were taught to believe in. The same has come true in my belief in the existence of god!
Tell me how I now go back to believing in Santa clause, in the Almighty?
How do I make that choice now?

You underestimate the plasticity of the brain and its remarkable ability to double-think, or in other words, believe in something despite its own personal knowledge that it's wrong.

Every day, spend a few moments talking to "God". To emotionally legitimize this, make sure it's a well-known god, not the Spaghetti Monster. That way your pack instinct will kick in. After a few months of talking to God every day, you will start to believe.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

You underestimate the plasticity of the brain and its remarkable ability to double-think, or in other words, believe in something despite its own personal knowledge that it's wrong.

Every day, spend a few moments talking to "God". To emotionally legitimize this, make sure it's a well-known god, not the Spaghetti Monster. That way your pack instinct will kick in. After a few months of talking to God every day, you will start to believe.

Then do that with Santa Claus. Come back here in however long it takes and tell us what it's like to believe in Santa Claus again.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then do that with Santa Claus. Come back here in however long it takes and tell us what it's like to believe in Santa Claus again.

This is exactly why I said to do it with a "real" god, and NOT something that nobody believes, like Santa Claus or the Spaghetti Monster. Pack mentality is key here. It has to be a god that other adults believe in.