Easing the American folks over to fascism

**Awaken** · 08-19-2004 04:49 PM

Free speech is now a priviledge! We should all be so grateful!

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Mayor Michael Bloomberg, already under fire for his tough stance against anti-GOP protest groups, Monday suggested that First Amendment rights of free speech and free assembly are "privileges" that could be lost if abused.

Bloomberg, speaking to Republican National Convention volunteers in Manhattan, was trying to downplay concerns that protesters will disrupt this month's convention -- when he began articulating a broader constitutional vision.

"People who avail themselves of the opportunity to express themselves ... they will not abuse that privilege," he said at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. "Because if we start to abuse our privileges, then we lose them, and nobody wants that."

The mayor's comments drew immediate criticism from protest groups and came amid reports that federal agents and city police have been questioning activists, monitoring Web sites and dropping in unannounced on organizational meetings.

"The right to protest is not nor has it ever been a privilege -- it is a constitutionally protected right that everybody in this country enjoys," said Leslie Cagan, head of United for Peace and Justice, which has locked horns with the city over its attempt to stage a 250,000-person protest in Central Park. "I have no idea what he's talking about. I'm completely flabbergasted."

Bloomberg press secretary Ed Skyler said, "The mayor certainly did not mean to imply that the First Amendment was in jeopardy here; nothing could be further than the truth, as the convention will show."

The online dictionary, Law.com, defines a privilege as a "special benefit, exemption from a duty, or immunity from penalty, given to a particular person, a group or a class of people."

A right, on the other hand, is defined as a "an entitlement to something, such as ... freedoms of speech, press, religion, assembly and petition," according to the online law dictionary.

City officials have granted permits for a 50,000-person protest in Central Park and have offered Cagan's group a route that passes Madison Square Garden and culminates on the West Side Highway, which the group accepted, then rejected. The parties met yesterday but failed to reach a new agreement, Cagan said.

As Bloomberg arrived at John Jay, he was greeted by a now-familiar contingent of off-duty police officers hectoring him for a raise.

In previous demonstrations, protesters were allowed within a few feet of the mayor. Monday, they were ushered behind steel barricades 20 yards away.

"We're offending the mayor, and now we're being forced into pens," said Walter Liddy, a Patrolmen's Benevolent Association official who led the protest.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/...ynews-headlines

**Death-Wuad** · 08-19-2004 05:05 PM

God damn son of a bitch republicans. Everything was working so well until George Bush came in to office... Suddenly it's unpatriotic and unlawful to not support the president. The problem with this country now is that George Bush has made it unpatriotic to voice your opinion. Just stand in line, do what you're told, and don't question.

**Awaken** · 08-19-2004 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Death-Wuad
God damn son of a bitch republicans. Everything was working so well until George Bush came in to office...

Well, I don't think anything was working well before he was in office, but he sure poured a lot of salt and vinegar on the wounds...

It's true though, how the word 'patriotic' is used so irresponsibly. Not wanting to go to war is unpatriotic! Asking questions is unpatriotic! Buying smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles is unpatriotic!

**Belisarius** · 08-19-2004 05:59 PM

Umm You do know Bloomberg is a Democrat right?

I don't like this, from his stance he assumes that government has absolute authority, and people can only do what the government allows them to.

This is the opposite of how it should be, where the people are the absolute authority, and government can only do what the people want it to.

**Death-Wuad** · 08-19-2004 06:36 PM

Well this is actually a representative republic. They still have power, but we make most of the decisions. The government is completely fucked up right now because the citizens of this country have become corrupt in their own ego.

l3xicon · 08-19-2004 07:44 PM

It may come as a shock to you guys but aside from the choice of words, this is hardly setting a precedent. It has been standard practice for a long time now to heavily regulate where and how large groups can hold their protests. Free speech has almost never been totally free. Every time more than a handful of people want to march around with signs and chant slogans, they usually have to get a PERMIT from the city first, telling exactly where they will be going, how many of them there will be, etc. etc. These permits can be denied if it is determined that there will be a safety risk to the general public or the protesters themselves. This is nothing new, and it is certainly not due to the Republicans (and if I remember correctly, at the Democractic convention this year the less mainstream left-wingers were caged off outside the convention hall, because the moderate Dems didn't want them messing up their nice little show.... curtailment of freedom is not an exclusively Republican trait, people).

**Death-Wuad** · 08-19-2004 08:23 PM

Aaaah yeah.... I remember that, but I only heard a little of it on the daily show, which is probably why I discarded such information

I guess that's another reason why democrats piss me off.

**Neil** · 08-20-2004 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Awaken

It's true though, how the word 'patriotic' is used so irresponsibly. Not wanting to go to war is unpatriotic! Asking questions is unpatriotic! Buying smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles is unpatriotic!

Yeah! The word "patriotism" is very frequently abused by governments. People fall for it too,

.

**Alric** · 08-20-2004 01:55 AM

Thank you Belisarius and anglicus for pointing out the stuff so many people miss when they go to complain about stuff.

**Awaken** · 08-20-2004 02:03 AM

It's that ego pride where being a follower in a big group gives people a sense of self-accomplishment and gratification - being "part of the team" where everyone else is considered the problem. People are so afraid of what other people think of them that they blindly conform to ideals which aren't their own, and then go ahead and persecute others for having those ideals that they themselves would otherwise be a part of.

Shame polarizes society. The government's definition of patriotism creates an outline of what's considered shameful.

l3xicon · 08-20-2004 06:03 AM

I really don't see the fuss about the patriotism issue. First let's distinguish between random Republican wackos on internet message boards, and the Republicans in our government. I CAN see some idiot on a message board saying, "If you don't like the war in Iraq the get your damn ass outta my country, pinko!" But then, there are just as many Democratic wackos who will call you a Nazi and a Fascist just for saying you voted Republican, so the field is pretty equal in this respect.

But what I do NOT see is that the Bush administration is trying to bully the public into obedience by the way they define patriotism like so many seem to claim. I've never gotten the feeling that they were denigrating the patriotism of those who opposed the war, or saying that asking question makes you a bad American, or saying "Buy SUVs or you are a traitor to this country." Give me a break!!! It's this kind of hysteria and hyperbole that makes rational political discourse impossible in this country. People need to just calm down. This is precisely the reason why I always register non-partisan. It seems that loyalty to a political party turns the average person into a complete idiot.

**Awaken** · 08-20-2004 03:48 PM

Originally posted by anglicus
I really don't see the fuss about the patriotism issue. First let's distinguish between random Republican wackos on internet message boards, and the Republicans in our government. I CAN see some idiot on a message board saying, \"If you don't like the war in Iraq the get your damn ass outta my country, pinko!\" But then, there are just as many Democratic wackos who will call you a Nazi and a Fascist just for saying you voted Republican, so the field is pretty equal in this respect.

But what I do NOT see is that the Bush administration is trying to bully the public into obedience by the way they define patriotism like so many seem to claim. I've never gotten the feeling that they were denigrating the patriotism of those who opposed the war, or saying that asking question makes you a bad American, or saying \"Buy SUVs or you are a traitor to this country.\" Give me a break!!! It's this kind of hysteria and hyperbole that makes rational political discourse impossible in this country. People need to just calm down. This is precisely the reason why I always register non-partisan. It seems that loyalty to a political party turns the average person into a complete idiot.

To a certain extent, yes, people (including myself) overdramatize how bad the idea of patriotism has gotten, but it's still quite valid to a certain extent. I was joking about the fuel-efficient car thing, but at the same time, the appeal of SUVs is grossly overglorified, and if the government had a sense of responsibility they would step in and encourage smaller vehicles, realizing how much fuel and resources they are wasting. But no, the dollar drives them to keep their mouths shut at the expense of the public's health.

There's also the matter of "if you're not with us, you're against us", and this is very valid in the US. As soon as the war started and Canada wanted to stay out, GWB immediately shifted his focus to Great Britain, because THEY had the balls to want to blow shit up! Tony Blair became Bush's lapdog. There was no respect for Canada's opinion. Same with the star wars missile thing. Same with legalizing pot. Basically, if anyone goes against what Bush believes in, they are labeled a terrorist, unpatriotic, or just "not one of our allies".

l3xicon · 08-20-2004 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Awaken
...I was joking about the fuel-efficient car thing, but at the same time, the appeal of SUVs is grossly overglorified,

Yeah, by CAR COMPANIES. Look: SUVs are a FAD. If you want to blame someone, blame the public and the car companies. The public is sucking these things up almost faster than they can come of the assembly line, and the car manufacturers are only too happy to reinforce this with lots of ads that say \"bigger is better\".

and if the government had a sense of responsibility they would step in and encourage smaller vehicles, realizing how much fuel and resources they are wasting. But no, the dollar drives them to keep their mouths shut at the expense of the public's health.[/b]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/29/...ain538451.shtml
\"President Bush said Tuesday night in his State of Union address that he wants $1.2 billion to develop hydrogen-powered automobiles. Mr. Bush said the project would promote a healthier environment and reduce the country's dependence on foreign oil. \"

It's funny how everyone just ignores these stories. Of if they do pay attention, they just scream \"it's not enough!\" Nothing is ever enough for people who are determined to see GW as the incarnate of satan.

There's also the matter of \"if you're not with us, you're against us\", and this is very valid in the US. As soon as the war started and Canada wanted to stay out, GWB immediately shifted his focus to Great Britain, because THEY had the balls to want to blow shit up! Tony Blair became Bush's lapdog. There was no respect for Canada's opinion.[/b]

If by \"having no respect\" you mean going ahead and doing what he planned to do even though Canada didn't want to, then I guess you're right. Personally, although I do believe we should value the input of other nations, to suggest that we always ought to just go along with whatever they think kind of undermines the idea that we are an independent nation. I don't think it is disrespectful to disagree. But even if you do, this is still a far cry from \"with us or against us\". If it were really \"with us or against us\" we would be invading Canada, or at least threatening to do so. Do you see what I mean? EXAGGERATION. HYPERBOLE.

Basically, if anyone goes against what Bush believes in, they are labeled a terrorist, unpatriotic, or just \"not one of our allies\".[/b]

See, there you go again with the unqualifed generalizations. I watch the news every day and see lots of people disagreeing with Bush that don't get called terrorists, don't get called unpatriotic and don't get called "not one of our allies." You know, I just think the problem here is that people repeat this stuff so much, it just gets taken for granted. By the way people talk, you'd think they are stormtroopers on every corner ready to bash your skull as soon as you say "No war for oil!" These people obviously never actually bother to look out their windows to see what state the country is actually in. Free speech is alive and well, believe me, but if anyone is trying to squash it, the anti-Bushies are as guilty as anyone. I've seen some pretty horrific video of anti-Bush protestors shouting down conservatives who tried to debate them, screaming "get off our streets, you fascist!!". If the Bush-brigade is so intent on squashing dissent, then they're really doing a bad job.

**Death-Wuad** · 08-20-2004 08:20 PM

Do you really think Bush would blatantly say that we were terrorists if we disagree with him? That whole "with us or against us" propoganda certainly made many people look like terrorists, or at least unpatriotic. Remember freedom fries?

**Awaken** · 08-21-2004 02:07 AM

Originally posted by anglicus
\"President Bush said Tuesday night in his State of Union address that he wants $1.2 billion to develop hydrogen-powered automobiles. Mr. Bush said the project would promote a healthier environment and reduce the country's dependence on foreign oil. \"

It's funny how everyone just ignores these stories. Of if they do pay attention, they just scream \"it's not enough!\" Nothing is ever enough for people who are determined to see GW as the incarnate of satan.

Bush has promised a lot of things which haven't come through...5 bucks says this doesn't either (unless he's profiting heavily from it)...

See, there you go again with the unqualifed generalizations. I watch the news every day and see lots of people disagreeing with Bush that don't get called terrorists, don't get called unpatriotic and don't get called \"not one of our allies.\" You know, I just think the problem here is that people repeat this stuff so much, it just gets taken for granted. By the way people talk, you'd think they are stormtroopers on every corner ready to bash your skull as soon as you say \"No war for oil!\" These people obviously never actually bother to look out their windows to see what state the country is actually in. Free speech is alive and well, believe me, but if anyone is trying to squash it, the anti-Bushies are as guilty as anyone. I've seen some pretty horrific video of anti-Bush protestors shouting down conservatives who tried to debate them, screaming \"get off our streets, you fascist!!\". If the Bush-brigade is so intent on squashing dissent, then they're really doing a bad job.[/b]

People can disagree all they want but it seems Bush still has his own agenda. Anti-Bush people have no power because they're not the ones in power...They're silenced or ignored, and so they're frustrated! I don't blame them - er, us...I don't call pro-Bush people fascists, I just question their motives and beliefs.

**Alric** · 08-21-2004 02:59 AM

First off most people never really like canada. Why do you think there are so many jokes about them? No one really hates them though but they sure don't care what they think. Its been that way for longer than bush has been around for sure.

Secondly no one likes france either. Even people against the war and stuff don't like france. Been that way for a long time too. The big reason why we don't like them is because they actively go against us not because they didn't help us. Look at all the other countries who just sat around and did nothing. People don't say their bad at all its only the countries who try and make things a huge pain for us that the people hate.

If you read what anglicus says again, its says bush "wants" the money to develop the stuff. Anyone who thinks the president can just wave a wand and make things happen is a moron. Anything like that has to go through congress, he can try but he nor any president can get something passed if congress wont go along with it. Which goes right to saying Bush has all the power, thats totally untrue. Theres more than enough anti bush people in congress to give them a lot of say. To say they are just ignored is wrong.

By the way I never seen anyone called a terrorist unless they where going around with a gun or bombs or something. Last time I checked trying to kill people was not a valid way to disagree.

**Death-Wuad** · 08-21-2004 03:10 AM

During ww2, nobody really knew what was happening to the jews until it was too late. The public only knows what it is told. This argument is worthless, no matter how much I hate to say that... Anybody could be lying, even our government. We won't know until it's all over, which sucks ass.

**Alric** · 08-21-2004 03:32 AM

A lot of people had a pretty good idea what was going on. And many more who knew something was but not sure what. I would say its a lot harder to cover something up like that now in a place like this.

With that said I know a lot of people are lieing anyway, because there is no way they could all be telling the truth because its so different.

**imported_Berserk_Exodus** · 08-21-2004 05:26 AM

Originally posted by Death-Wuad
God damn son of a bitch republicans. Everything was working so well until George Bush came in to office... Suddenly it's unpatriotic and unlawful to not support the president. The problem with this country now is that George Bush has made it unpatriotic to voice your opinion. Just stand in line, do what you're told, and don't question.

My mom's cleaning business was audited which wasn't a cleaning business and my dad's tax shot through the roof during the Clinton administration, working so well? Yeah, for the IRS.

**Death-Wuad** · 08-21-2004 05:28 AM

Ok ok, I retract my statement that everything was working so well. But it was working better than it is now (in general).

**Awaken** · 08-21-2004 06:02 AM

Originally posted by Alric
First off most people never really like canada. Why do you think there are so many jokes about them? No one really hates them though but they sure don't care what they think. Its been that way for longer than bush has been around for sure.

Every major country has an encyclopedia of jokes dedicated to it...

No one cares what we think because all we think about is peace and love and stupid stuff like that!

**Belisarius** · 08-25-2004 01:34 AM

Originally posted by Death-Wuad
During ww2, nobody really knew what was happening to the jews until it was too late. The public only knows what it is told. This argument is worthless, no matter how much I hate to say that... Anybody could be lying, even our government. We won't know until it's all over, which sucks ass.

During WWII the U.S., U.K., Germany, and the Soviet Union were all socialist dictatorships(those are listed in order from best to worst). We had executive-appointed commisions that controlled our economy. We were actually very similar to Germany in that companies still existed, but they were controlled by regulations and their main customers were the state. "Democracy" in 1944 really mean our brand of socialism. After the war most things returned to the way they were, but some didn't. In 1984 Orwell points out that the three Socialist powers couldn't survive without war, without the war, American socialism couldn't survive and was abandoned either purposefully or not. All that would be necessary for the U.S. to become a fascist state is another major war.

**knox07** · 11-17-2004 04:40 AM

mann why does everybody like to talk trash about america..... shiiiitt i like my country.... and i happen to think no country is perfect.... and im proud to say im american and i love my country

**pyrhho** · 11-17-2004 06:31 PM

Originally posted by knox07
mann why does everybody like to talk trash about america..... shiiiitt i like my country.... and i happen to think no country is perfect.... and im proud to say im american and i love my country

FASCIST!!!!! (just kidding, lol).

**Inferno** · 11-18-2004 12:25 AM

I don't think americans see it so easily, since they've been born into that "big is better, more is good, give som more and some more, we are the best because everybody watch hollywood films" culture...

But I'll try to explain: The thing is, that you have no sense of restraining yourself, you just eat and eat, and you think the whole world evolves around you... and when many people already find your lifestyle kind of disgusting, that can be very irritating...

But of course, I am not talking about you, as I don't know you.. I am talking about the negative sides of america.

All the lights, advertisements, commercial industry, burgers, hollywood, popstars, general wackos... It seems very "brainless" from an outside view..
And on top of that the whole "we are the best" thing... huff...

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