Thread: Proof that the universe isn't infinate?

Originally Posted by Xei

So it follows that it's possible to prove that some things are actually impossible.

I think impossible/possible are subjective. Come on, face it; humans aren't omnipresent or almighty. We can't know everything. It's very possible that some things we consider to be impossible are actually possible.

Which is called being wrong.

The thing in question still isn't simultaneously impossible and possible.

There is no such thing as subjective truth, just make sure you include the correct nouns in your statement.

For example, 'Person Y thinks that action X is impossible when actually it is possible'. That is an objective truth, there is no such thing as subjectivity.

Originally Posted by Xei

Is it possible to exist on a Monday? Well, it's not monday now, but it will be Monday in the future. So I guess it's simultaneously possible and impossible to exist on a Monday.

You're not really providing very good examples..

Monday is not provable, it is part of an "accepted standard", with a subjective origin.

Originally Posted by Xei

Which is called being wrong.

Don't call it anything, that's what humans do.

Originally Posted by Xei

There is no such thing as subjective truth, just make sure you include the correct nouns in your statement.

For example, 'Person Y thinks that action X is impossible when actually it is possible'. That is an objective truth, there is no such thing as subjectivity.

There's no such thing as subjectivity? LOL Ok, how about we ignore it. It might be more comforting to call it a non-thing. Think about this a little more, this is a huge statement.

How about this:

There is no such thing as "thinking" truth, just make sure you include the correct nouns in your statement.

For example, 'Person Y thinks that thinking is impossible when actually Person Y is unaware of what thinking is. "That is an subjective truth, there is no such thing as subjectivity."

You're not really providing very good examples..

Monday is not provable, it is part of an "accepted standard", with a subjective origin.

I don't know what you're talking about but my example was isomorphic to the statement about telekinesis in the future somehow showing that something can be impossible and possible.

Don't call it anything, that's what humans do.

Right.

There's no such thing as subjectivity? LOL Ok, how about we ignore it. It might be more comforting to call it a non-thing. Think about this a little more, this is a huge statement.

How about this:

There is no such thing as "thinking" truth, just make sure you include the correct nouns in your statement.

For example, 'Person Y thinks that thinking is impossible when actually Person Y is unaware of what thinking is. "That is an subjective truth, there is no such thing as subjectivity."

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.

Give me an example of a subjective truth which I can't show is actually objective.

Originally Posted by Xei

I really don't know what point you're trying to make.

Subjectivity cannot be denied.

Originally Posted by Xei

Give me an example of a subjective truth which I can't show is actually objective.

What's the point?

I know what Xei is trying to say. Nothing can be both possible and impossible. But what I was trying to say is this: There are things we have never seen before (and therefore consider impossible); even though they are not.

But something impossible can become possible in time, right?
Things change.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

I know what Xei is trying to say. Nothing can be both possible and impossible.

Yes, of course.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

But what I was trying to say is this: There are things we have never seen before (and therefore consider impossible); even though they are not.

Yes, assumptions are inherently dominant through the human mind.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

But something impossible can become possible in time, right?
Things change.

Yes, things are always changing.

Originally Posted by Xei

Give me an example of a subjective truth which I can't show is actually objective.

There is a simple one that I've said before.


I like the color green.

'The person above called Xaqaqia believes himself to find the colour green pleasing'.

There is only objective reality.

But something impossible can become possible in time, right?
Things change.

No, the thing was always possible, we were just previously wrong.

What's the point?

Because there is no reason in making unfounded claims?

Originally Posted by Xei

'The person above called Xaqaqia believes himself to find the colour green pleasing'.

You know better than that.

Originally Posted by Xei

There is only objective reality.

Objectively speaking.

Originally Posted by Xei

Because there is no reason in making unfounded claims?

How does this relate to what you previously stated? What's the point?

Originally Posted by Xei

No, the thing was always possible, we were just previously wrong.

OK. There is this aircraft that cannot fly into space.
It is impossible.
You modify the aircraft so it CAN fly into space.
Now it is possible.
But it wasn't possible all along because before the change the craft wasn't equipped for space travel.

Does that make ANY sense? :p

EDIT: I personally think (subjective!!! OMFG!!) that there is NO such thing as objectivity. Humans are like living , breathing sensors. What we see is merely an interpretating of our brain. Same with sounds and touch. It's ALL interpretation...Doesn't that mean that everything is subjective? Even thought? Thought is nothing more than electricity... What makes rational thought more credible that hallucinations?

When I say I believe in objective truth, I am talking of universal truth. I mean that there are no truths which are mutually exclusive. For example, 'x is possible' and 'x is impossible' cannot both be true.

OK. There is this aircraft that cannot fly into space.
It is impossible.
You modify the aircraft so it CAN fly into space.
Now it is possible.
But it wasn't possible all along because before the change the craft wasn't equipped for space travel.

Well, you could have modified the aircraft at any time.

At any point in time the conditions of your environment may change so that things that were previously impossible are now possible and vice versa, but there is never anything which is simultaneously possible and impossible.

Originally Posted by Xei

When I say I believe in objective truth, I am talking of universal truth.

Ok so you think there is nothing universal about subjectivity?

Basically yes.

Originally Posted by Xei

Basically yes.

All subjectivity is subjective.

Without a subject, there is nothing.

These are but analytical semantic games propogated by humans natural instinct to categorise their milieu.

It is significantly plausible that there is more than what we know of on the table of elements.

Delve into the Cartesian abyss where anything is possible but you can still doubt the existance of everything.

Have fun.
~

[QUOTE=Splitter;894925]Ok, lets say that the universe goes on forever. This would mean that there are infinate possibilities as every imaginable circumstance would exist somewhere. Assuming this 'fact'; you would have to conclude that, as there are infinate possibilities, everything is possible which also leaves the possibility of everything being impossible, and therefore leading us to conclude that everything is impossible.

therefore; some things ARE impossible and the universe is not an infinate being.

Discuss [/QUOT

You caught yourself in a nice word trap. I wouldn't call it proof though.

Originally Posted by Xei

'The person above called Xaqaqia believes himself to find the colour green pleasing'.

Are you sure? You observe me claiming to like green on the internet and suddenly its an objective truth? You can do better than that. How would you go about proving this to be true? Even if you could prove I believe that I like green, it does nothing to prove I actually do.

Originally Posted by Xei

There is only objective reality.

Actually, there is only subjective reality. Show me an example of something that exists independent of an observer. (Before you try, you can't of course. In order to show me anything; I'd have to observe it.)

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Actually, there is only subjective reality. Show me an example of something that exists independent of an observer. (Before you try, you can't of course. In order to show me anything; I'd have to observe it.)

Well said.

Are you sure? You observe me claiming to like green on the internet and suddenly its an objective truth? You can do better than that. How would you go about proving this to be true? Even if you could prove I believe that I like green, it does nothing to prove I actually do.

What I said was obviously assuming you weren't lying.

If you were lying then I was simply saying something which was objectively wrong.

Actually, there is only subjective reality. Show me an example of something that exists independent of an observer. (Before you try, you can't of course. In order to show me anything; I'd have to observe it.)

Truth exists independent of humans. Humans do not influence the truth by what they believe to be true, that is ridiculous. Humans are wrong or right about what is objectively true.

A falling tree in a forest exists without somebody there to see it.

Originally Posted by Xei

Truth exists independent of humans. Humans do not influence the truth by what they believe to be true, that is ridiculous. Humans are wrong or right about what is objectively true.

There is also subjective truth in terms of the universal (Enlightenment).

Therefore truth can be realized. Subjective truth is not objective truth.

^ A collection of words.

Originally Posted by Xei

What I said was obviously assuming you weren't lying.

If you were lying then I was simply saying something which was objectively wrong.

Truth exists independent of humans. Humans do not influence the truth by what they believe to be true, that is ridiculous. Humans are wrong or right about what is objectively true.

A falling tree in a forest exists without somebody there to see it.

If you are so certain then prove it. If it is so ridiculous that the opposite could be true, then it should be easy to plainly show an example of an objective truth that exists independent of any observers. Do you have any proof whatsoever for what you believe or is this merely an argument from incredulity?

Originally Posted by Xei

^ A collection of words.

^ Objective observation.

Subjective observation: Words have intrinsic purpose; meaning.