The Solution to All of Lifes Problems

In real non-existence, it is oblivion. Nothing. (Non-existence is not).

No form, no formless. No observation, no observed, no observing and no observer.

Nothing to talk about.

Irrelevant.

Not even.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/1/...148/naught.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Totally agree with you, O'nus. And for all those people moaning about how death isn't a solution to the problem - your reasoning is just wrong. Life is the problem. Death means there is no more problem. Ultimately, what's the difference between the problem being gone, and solving the problem? Nothing.

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That is a good way of putting it. When you solve a problem, the problem is no more. Suicide is just another way of eliminating problems. If I were the victim of some horrible accident that left me maimed and in constant excruciating pain, with almost total loss of motor control, I would definitely consider suicide, as it would eliminate all of those problems.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

I'm not saying that if a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, it doesn't make a sound - no.

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I think that is a weird saying. I still don't understand how it would be possible for it to not make a sound. People are not the cause of sound waves, we just hear them. Likewise, a tree falling, will produce sound waves. If a radio is on in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I say yes.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Also, once something exists, it does not cease to exist. Dying is not ceasing to exist, it is a change of form (the same goes for birth).

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From what evidence are you making these wild speculations?

I refuse to have an argument with self-righteous mystics.

Feel free to believe that we never cease to exist, but please, don't present this belief with absolutely no evidence or reasoning to support it.

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

I think that is a weird saying. I still don't understand how it would be possible for it to not make a sound. People are not the cause of sound waves, we just hear them. Likewise, a tree falling, will produce sound waves. If a radio is on in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I say yes.

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I think you misunderstand. I was saying that I don't agree with people who say that it DOESN'T make a sound. i.e., I think it still makes a sound even if no one is there to hear it. What I was saying is, all that matters is what is percieved. So if something is not percieved by the individual it may as well not exist.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

From what evidence are you making these wild speculations?

I refuse to have an argument with self-righteous mystics.

Feel free to believe that we never cease to exist, but please, don't present this belief with absolutely no evidence or reasoning to support it.

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Lol :D it's quite simple. When the body dies, it does not magically disappear. It usually decomposes underground once it is buried. Change of form.

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Originally Posted by poog

sounds grim :(

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It doesn't sound like a dancing banana. :banana::banana::banana::banana:


OR DOES IT?!

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Originally Posted by really

Lol :D it's quite simple. When the body dies, it does not magically disappear. It usually decomposes underground once it is buried. Change of form.

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But you die when your brain dies. Your body changes form, but you only change from existing to not existing.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

But you die when your brain dies. Your body changes form, but you only change from existing to not existing.

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I consider my body part of me. Not all of me, just the physical form. So when I die, that bit of me will undergo a long process of deterioration ending with me being dirt or plant food. This, we have proof of. What happens to your consciousness is most likely non-existence, but no one can say for sure. Whatever happens when we die, we'll find out soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

I think you misunderstand. I was saying that I don't agree with people who say that it DOESN'T make a sound. i.e., I think it still makes a sound even if no one is there to hear it. What I was saying is, all that matters is what is percieved. So if something is not percieved by the individual it may as well not exist.

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I didn't mean to confuse you, I did understand what you were saying. I've just seen that expression too many times to not comment on it. It seems like everyone agrees that it would indeed make a noise, I just don't get how that saying is still going around because I don't see any way it could not make a noise. To suggest that sound waves cease to exist unless people are nearby is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

I consider my body part of me. Not all of me, just the physical form. So when I die, that bit of me will undergo a long process of deterioration ending with me being dirt or plant food.

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Your brain is the only physical part of 'you'. Your body is just a machine - albeit a very sophisticated and well designed machine - but a machine nontheless. It has no relevance to your consciouness, other than the fact that it is controlled by you.

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Whatever happens when we die, we'll find out soon enough.

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Not if we cease to exist! :P

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To suggest that sound waves cease to exist unless people are nearby is just silly.

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Amen to that. Then again, I would say that it is equally as silly, if not more, to believe in God. Both are denying science to an equal extent. So it's subjective.

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

I think that is a weird saying. I still don't understand how it would be possible for it to not make a sound. People are not the cause of sound waves, we just hear them. Likewise, a tree falling, will produce sound waves. If a radio is on in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I say yes.

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Unless we're dealing with quantum mechanics, in which case it wouldn't make a sound unless a lab tech was listening :)

Just being pedantic.

Not a solution. Only a way to quit.

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

I didn't mean to confuse you, I did understand what you were saying. I've just seen that expression too many times to not comment on it. It seems like everyone agrees that it would indeed make a noise, I just don't get how that saying is still going around because I don't see any way it could not make a noise. To suggest that sound waves cease to exist unless people are nearby is just silly.

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A noise is the brain's interpretation of a vibration in the ear drum and inner ear caused by a compression wave in the surrounding atmosphere. Without a brain to interpret this chain of vibration, anything a tree might do in the forest does not cause a sound.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Your brain is the only physical part of 'you'. Your body is just a machine - albeit a very sophisticated and well designed machine - but a machine nontheless. It has no relevance to your consciouness, other than the fact that it is controlled by you.

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Since when is the brain not part of the body? Are you saying that consciousness is non-physical in nature? What is it then? If it is not physical, why then must it cease due to a physical death?

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

A noise is the brain's interpretation of a vibration in the ear drum and inner ear caused by a compression wave in the surrounding atmosphere. Without a brain to interpret this chain of vibration, anything a tree might do in the forest does not cause a sound.

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I think I get it now. Sound waves are not sound, they're just the physical part of what we interpret to be sound. The sound waves would still exist, but without a brain there to change those waves into actual sound, they would be nothing more than soundless sound waves, vibrations in the surrounding medium. I never thought of it that way before.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

But you die when your brain dies. Your body changes form, but you only change from existing to not existing.

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This is perhaps an assumption based off appearances - which are not subjective reality.

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Originally Posted by really

This is perhaps an assumption based off appearances - which are not subjective reality.

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Appearances? I don't really understand what you mean here - science and reason points towards death being the transition from existence of the individual consciousness, to non-existence of the individual consciousness.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Since when is the brain not part of the body? Are you saying that consciousness is non-physical in nature? What is it then? If it is not physical, why then must it cease due to a physical death?

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I think you misunderstood by previous post. I'm not saying that there is more to consciousness than physical. I was saying that consciousness only exists in the physical world, and there is no more to it; BUT that the body is not a part of that. Your body is only connectedto your consciousness in that you control it - but without it, theoretically, your consciousness can be maintained without it being changed dramatically - except that you wouldn't have any inputs or outputs to the physical world.

Your consciousness is totally, utterly contained within the brain. That's it.

When we covered the question in class of the 'falling tree with no-one around', I was relieved to find out that they were short about it and identified it as a simple word-definition-question.

A tree falling produces sound waves. In some situations one would call sound waves sound, in some one might not. A tree falling and reaching someones (who is conscious) eardrums, is often also called 'sound'. Nothing really more to it. Main point is that it is a matter of definition. I don't really see why this question is the most legendary question of philosophy, at least as far as a lot people think. Since the question really isn't a mystery, if you accept that words are man-made and do not have rigid definitions.

In the words of the Fresh Prince of Bell Air:

What if the tree falls on Uncle Phil and he hurts the tree?

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Appearances? I don't really understand what you mean here - science and reason points towards death being the transition from existence of the individual consciousness, to non-existence of the individual consciousness.

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Appearances - I watch this and that, conclude that this causes that. Limitations.

Science and reason are limited to their own paradigm of causality. The subjective is not the objective. The brain is not the infinite.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

Suicide.

What do you think...?

~

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Certainly, at least as a last resort.

There is no way I would have a miserably painful death if I could help it. Just give me my .45 and let me be.

In (most) other situations there are other measures one can take to fix or at least make bearable some of life's problems, such as going crazy, grabbing your boss by the lapels and shaking the shit out of him.

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Originally Posted by really

Science and reason are limited to their own paradigm of causality. The subjective is not the objective. The brain is not the infinite.

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Yet you haven't given me a single bit of reason or evidence to suggest that death isn't the end of consciousness.

Has it been said yet that suicide is the only philosophical question?

I agree. The only thing worth pondering over in the entire world is whether or not to commit suicide.

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Your consciousness is totally, utterly contained within the brain. That's it.

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A) Prove it.

B) You never answered; since when is the brain not part of the body?

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Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Yet you haven't given me a single bit of reason or evidence to suggest that death isn't the end of consciousness.

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And you haven't given a bit of evidence suggesting that it is.

Wow man that's dark.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

A) Prove it.

B) You never answered; since when is the brain not part of the body?



And you haven't given a bit of evidence suggesting that it is.

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A) You mean besides the fact that we've never observed anything conscious that isn't inside of a neural network of the brain?

B) I do believe you are being a semantic whore again...generally when a person refers to the body they mean the head, neck, torso, arms, and legs.


The decay of the brain after death from those who have been dead for a specific amount of time resulting in brain damage?


We already know that consciousness is directly related to the brain...damage changes memories, emotions, intelligence, etc.

To anyone who isn't a hopeless romantic over what the universe has to offer it is obvious that the brain is that which constructs consciousness.

We have not observed actions from something without neurons allowing it respond

We have not observed reactions from something without neurons allowing it to sense

How do you observe consciousness?

An experiment might be to remove a brain from an already dying body (to be humane) and connect it to computer inputs where the external inputs used to be, and then see what happens. If able, the brain might still tell you it feel conscious.