Thread: Language's effect on thinking

As ive get it, speech and language is a tool to comunicate feelings and abstract thougt, by doing them concrete and put them down in words, with other people. Many times a language dont reech the feelings and thougt one haves. There simply isnt that many words to concretize the whole specter of the mental activity. Maybe thats why you feel its hard for you to think straight, since all the between words stuff.
If we were to remove the bound of our head, you mean language? Our heads have an incredible processing capacity, no doubt about that. And i think everyone think pretty fast. But some are better to put down to words than others and others are better at creativity and such.
I think animals, including humans, adapt there language only when social. Humans have come this far that we use words to communicate, but like animals most of our communication happens by body language. Subtile muscles tensing around in our body during different situations. Animals maybe dont talk in words like we know it, but they have theyr "roars" and poses that, since theyr social can react and give feedback on. But if an animal was to grove up alone, if it survived without any other conctact, i have no idea how its language would be. Have been tests with babys for long ago with this, moraly disputed, but they died.

It is doubtful that any of the other animals think in a language. Perhaps some of the more intelligent species.

We don't always think in our native language either. When executing something that takes skill (particularly a high degree of skill), the language centers are quiet. I know, for instance, when I'm drawing something that is detailed, or when I'm playing a difficult song on the guitar, I'm not thinking words. I'm focused on the task at hand, and my left brain (the part that talks a lot and uses symbols to understand the world) is being quiet so that my right brain (the part that sees the shapes and hears the sounds without converting them to symbols) is doing most of the "thinking".

This is usually the case in athletics and the arts. It's probably also the case when we read "body language", but our left brain is talking so loud we don't notice that our right brain is sizing someone up in a non-verbal way. There are many other examples.

Meditation is form of non-verbal thinking (at least I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be ). If you want to "think pure" I would suggest you study some of the different forms of meditation. Tai Chi, Chi Kung, Buddhist mindfulness meditation, Yoga, or Zazen are just a few of the many, many possibilities you could explore.

Or simply observe how your mind works the next time you're doing a complex task. You may be "talking to yourself" some of the time, but if you're highly focused, there are no words to describe it!

Originally posted by donbowyerson
It is doubtful that any of the other animals think in a language. Perhaps some of the more intelligent species.

We don't always think in our native language either. When executing something that takes skill (particularly a high degree of skill), the language centers are quiet. I know, for instance, when I'm drawing something that is detailed, or when I'm playing a difficult song on the guitar, I'm not thinking words. I'm focused on the task at hand, and my left brain (the part that talks a lot and uses symbols to understand the world) is being quiet so that my right brain (the part that sees the shapes and hears the sounds without converting them to symbols) is doing most of the \"thinking\".

This is usually the case in athletics and the arts. It's probably also the case when we read \"body language\", but our left brain is talking so loud we don't notice that our right brain is sizing someone up in a non-verbal way. There are many other examples.

Meditation is form of non-verbal thinking (at least I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be ). If you want to \"think pure\" I would suggest you study some of the different forms of meditation. Tai Chi, Chi Kung, Buddhist mindfulness meditation, Yoga, or Zazen are just a few of the many, many possibilities you could explore.

Or simply observe how your mind works the next time you're doing a complex task. You may be \"talking to yourself\" some of the time, but if you're highly focused, there are no words to describe it!

i did mention that if left alone with out bieng tought a language you would "create" your own in your mind and think in that language you created.
Also i more or less refering to something that happned to me, where I felt I re-lived everymemory that existed in my head millions of times in a matter of a few milisecconds, repeated over the course of a few hours (i though i was dead or i would have killed myself).
also i was thinking about how many dreams we might be having everynight but our mind erases them before we have a chance to write them in a "memory slot".

Originally posted by What Is Real?
Everytime I think of anything it is in english(takes lots of time).

Do you mean that it takes you alot of time to think; or do you mean that it takes you alot of time to translate your thoughts into english?? (i.e. I think this is what we mean when we say we have to "gather our thoughts." We have already thought it and know ourselves what we mean, but we have to "gather them together" in a way that lets us more easily communicate, and perhaps understand -- that is translate them into a language)

I'm not sure if language has a huge affect on our thinking. I know it does to an extent when we're trying to comprehend things that are new or unfamiliar. I think language comes into play when we try to coherently organize our thoughts in ways that we can express them to others or to make it easier for ourselves to remember certain things. The mind is an interesting thing.

Read "1984" by George Orwell. It talks about it.

Also, think about the idea of "visual learning." I myself learn best that way and when I'm trying to memorize new words (in Russian, persay) or music I find it easier to visualize how the word looks or how the music appears on a staff. Some people learn better when ppl simply tell them things.

Also, imagine this. Do you think you'd think better without words or if there were words in exstance for anything we could imagine. I think our limited vocabulary combined with fallable memories contributes to this.

I'm done....

-Amé

About animals and creating a language if none is shown:

It's generally accepted that other than humans (And possibly a few other species) animals don't have conscious thought, or abstract ones for that matter that require a language. They're more just the instinctive things, with the ability to link things to good and bad. For example a cat might link stroking to good, and water to bad.

Anyway, I tend to put thoughts into two categories: Conscious/Abstract thought, whcih I consider to be done in my definition of the mind. For instance, I am consciously thinking this right now as I type, in my mind, and thinking it in English. The other category is Subconscious/instinctive thought. Done in my definition of the brain, without you realising. Things like being hungry, you're hungry, you know you're hungry, but you don't think to yourself 'I'm hungry' (At least, not right away), you know that you're hungry first.

The thing that sets humans apart from animals is their capacity for conscious thought. This is what's kept them alive despite their obvious lack of a main, useful physical trait (e.g. A cheetah's speed).

Anyway, I went off on a bit of a tangent, but some of that should be relevant.

What is real wrote:

i did mention that if left alone with out bieng tought a language you would "create" your own in your mind and think in that language you created.
Also i more or less refering to something that happned to me, where I felt I re-lived everymemory that existed in my head millions of times in a matter of a few milisecconds, repeated over the course of a few hours (i though i was dead or i would have killed myself).
also i was thinking about how many dreams we might be having everynight but our mind erases them before we have a chance to write them in a "memory slot".

I've heard about children who create their own language when growing up isolated from others. Children, under these circumstances, still have each other though - and the social aspect of language will drive it's development (ie - we need to communicate with each other). I'm not sure that language is needed at all for an individual to understand many things about the natural world, even though some form of language is required to convey almost any highly abstract idea to others, and also to understand such ideas within our own minds.

As for the compressed memories you refer too, this phenomena has been reported many times. I wonder if it is just an illusion created a rapid stream of short memories, or if it is a case where the brain has martialled all of it's parallel processing capabilities and uses them to process large groups of memories at the same time. Either way, the effect is stunning.

It's pretty safe to say that our mind "erases" the vast majority of dreams we have each night. There are still many unproven theories regarding dreams. I tend to subscribe to the idea that dreams are the brain's way of integrating each day's experiences into long-term memory (very important in learning), and helping to resolve conflict through symbolism. Most of the dreams themselves are "trashed", but the end result is more clarity in waking life.

ok, I wasn't clear enough about what I was talking about but here it goes again... This time ill use a computer as an analogy. Humans, just like computers must get a 'variables' from memory and work with them inorder to think. But imagine a computer that didnt need to retrive these variables (words) from memory. Im not sure how much knolege everyone here has of computers, but if a computer didn't need to figure out the variables it was working with before use them then it would be insanely fast, i belive the same thing would happen with a human brain if we were to, in some way think outside of languages.

If animals DON'T use this method of refering to objects (although it my be a memory, picture ect..), they would be FAR more intelegent than humans because they could prefrom almost unlimited 'thinking' in a given ammount of time. Of course this only refers to animals that can preform 'thinking'. Im not talking about bacteria and stuff.

O and the last two comments got more into what im thinkin about, when i say 'language' im sort of meaning 'variable' or sometihng the brain need to go retrieve, precess, and then spit back out. But a baby that hasnt even seen anything (MUST?) think in a pure form(unless we are born with what we call instincts aka: preprogramed 'language')

Also as i was thinking, what im talking about is like our heat beat, breathing, and reflexes you never think "thats hot" you move then think that after. If we were to go "thats hot" it would ALMOST take the same ammount of time to think it as it would to say it(atleast for me).

What is real said:

it would be insanely fast, i belive the same thing would happen with a human brain if we were to, in some way think outside of languages.

There are many times that the brain is working "outside of languages". As I said earlier, this happens in athletics, etc. Consider the baseball batter's response to an oncoming baseball. His eyes recieve the input of the image of a rapidly approaching baseball and his brain coordinates those signals with the output signals it sends to the muscles to swing the bat at the appropriate time and in the appropriate plane to meet the ball with the bat - all of this happens "insanely fast", in fractions of a second - far faster than language is processed. Of course, much of the "brain power" is directed toward coordinating the physical activity.

What is real said:

If animals DON'T use this method of refering to objects (although it my be a memory, picture ect..), they would be FAR more intelegent than humans because they could prefrom almost unlimited 'thinking' in a given ammount of time.

In fact, many animals are far more intelligent than humans when it comes to physical abilities. Consider the hawk's ability to coordinate it's visual and muscular activity to snag a mouse in a field. Or the whale's ability to navigate the vast, featureless ocean. Their brains are simply wired for specific tasks that ours aren't wired for.

I think that our brains operate extremely fast under many conditions - as you said, when something's hot, we know and react before we can even think "ouch".

I think what you're looking for regarding a "pure form" of thinking doesn't really exist. We either use our brains for processing complex concepts conveyed by language, or for processing direct, physical world inputs/outputs. The latter is faster because there are no extra "variables" to deal with. If you come up with a way to do the former without those variables, let me know!

Originally posted by donbowyerson
I think that our brains operate extremely fast under many conditions - as you said, when something's hot, we know and react before we can even think \"ouch\".

correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the reason we can react to pain before we realize it hurts is that the signal doesn't need to reach the brain to react. There's things called "Interneurons" in your spine that can initiate these sort of responses (like pulling your hand away) without the signal ever reaching the brain, (hence why it doesn't hurt till after), so really there's no thinking involved at all in certain extremely basic reflexes.

You're probably right pyrhho. I'm unfamiliar with that aspect of human physiology. It certainly explains some actions that we don't have concious control over. It also raises a question in my mind regarding the "speed of thought". Perhaps my baseball analogy is incorrect, or needs modification. How much concious control do we have over athletic actioins? Are such high speed, precision actions controlled "outside" of the realm of higher brain functions?

Originally posted by donbowyerson
Perhaps my baseball analogy is incorrect, or needs modification. How much concious control do we have over athletic actioins? Are such high speed, precision actions controlled \"outside\" of the realm of higher brain functions?

Initially no, eventually yes. Learning a a new behaviour (ie. baseball/golf swing) takes effort from higher brain functions, but once that action is engrained into memory it becomes a reflex.You're brain simply flips the switch and automatically fires all the right neurons at once to produce the swing, no thinking required. Actually in that case thinking can get you into trouble. If someone has a hitch in their golf swing its common to say that their "head is getting in the way".

It's incredible how much information the brain is processing every second of everyday. Until reading this sentence you were temporarily unaware that your shoes are pressing against your feet and that you're nose is in your line of vision. But I can assure you that you're brain was processing that information all along.

If you get the chance, take an Intro Psychology course at school, you learn all about this kind of stuff.

If animals DON'T use this method of refering to objects (although it my be a memory, picture ect..), they would be FAR more intelegent than humans because they could prefrom almost unlimited 'thinking' in a given ammount of time. Of course this only refers to animals that can preform 'thinking'. Im not talking about bacteria and stuff.[/b]

Did you ever think about things that are either impossible or incredibly hard to put into words? Or, if you're thinking using words, do you just skip over the words sometimes because your thoughts move along faster than your ability to turn them into words? Well, I do those things anyway. I try to think with words as little as possible when actually contemplating something, but of course being able to put your thoughts into words is useful when communication them or writing them down. Also, I don't think that the speed of the brain's thinking is slowed down THAT much by translating into words or pictures. In fact, in some cases language HELPS you think about certain things.

If I were to think w/o words, or at least not depend on words as crutches, my processing skills would be so much better...

I believe that all too often, words distort meaning. They are symbols for ideas in our heads, and we never know if the symbols mean 100% exactly the same to 2 different people, even if they looked up the exact same definitions. There's so many other factors involved in carrying meaning.

but hwat about when we make art or play improvised music?

I would say that when we think in language, we communicate our thought to ourselves.

there is a word you are looking for here, and it is called "mentalese" by those of us in the field of Linguistics. I for one am a strong proponant of the theory

I cannot remember if there is a specific name for the theory or not, but I took a communication theory class in which we discussed language as the basis for communication and even reality... There are many who hold to the theory that we wouldn't be able to know anything without language (whether thant language is pictorial, verbal, both, etc.) So then the question of how animals know or how babies know comes up, if that theory is true. I think that initially babies "know" or think in terms of reaction to physical stimuli alone
-like pain, hunger, cold, pressure, etc. I think animals probably operate in a similar way - though they have a much smaller "hard drive" or long term memory if you will. It seems we humans have a nearly endless hard drive and the potential for a pretty large RAM at that, and perhaps even something else even more acute (which gives us the ability to create, imagine, progress in our "large picture" thinking, etc.) ...fascinating subject!

I think babies already have spiritual development taking place, whether it be new or dragging on from energies of a past incarnation. Not just physical stimuli.

Anyway, I once asked my girlfriend "Maybe we don't have an identity without words." She totally clicked with it and pointed it out as most likely true.
Hha, it's very hard to disprove it cuz we already think in words...but if you've ever tried the kind of meditation without labelling, you'll know what I mean.

Words are useful, but to me, they were a huge dump of stumbling blocks, imo for my evolution in life. I got attached to them, and didn't know how to let go for a while.

Originally posted by AirRick101
I think babies already have spiritual development taking place, whether it be new or dragging on from energies of a past incarnation. Not just physical stimuli.

I thought we were talking about cognition, not spiritual development... But that raises an interesting question: How are spiritual and cognitive development related? Since we know little about spiritual development, that would be a difficult question to answer... Energies of a past incarnation...

if you've ever tried the kind of meditation without labelling, you'll know what I mean.[/b]

You would not be able to meditate (at least not in any cognitive or conscious state) without rationalization. Even while meditating, your mind is compartmentalizing and creating/analyzing meaning (consciously or unconsciously) and meaning cannot exist or be realized in any cognitive/retentive sense without language.

Words are useful, but to me, they were a huge dump of stumbling blocks, imo for my evolution in life. I got attached to them, and didn't know how to let go for a while.[/b]

I think (my own theory) that by "letting go" you are simply letting your intuition and or subconscious do the work that your conscious does, or perhaps you are allowing your conscious/subconscious meld into one (which is what I think happens during high lucid dreaming). Good point though, many times words create more confusion than they do understanding... But that is what makes life unpredictable/interesting, too. If we could communicate perfectly all the time what would that be like? I suppose it would be "perfect" but would it be interesting?