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this is a little question that came up in my religious/moral/philisophical studies class.
"if you had a ring you could wear that would make you invisible, what would you do, and what would you not do? in other words, would you still have morals if you could get away with anything?"
think about that and post answers.
No i wouldn't. This is like the "What would you do if the world was ending tommorow" threadQuote:
Originally Posted by slash112
I would do whatever i had the impulse to do but dont do now because of consequences.
No Consequences to my actions=Chaos
One of the top ten things i would do is rob a bank.
I would put Thief in a headlock, and he would have no idea what the Hell is happening to him.
being invisible is different than being able to get away with anything. being invisible would only eliminate witnesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
I would do all sorts of illegal stuff though... drugs/sex/violence runs through my veins.
I would also still HAVE morals. I just wouldn't follow them. Just like now.
Steal from the rich and give to the poor.
I would whisper into peoples' ears, and command that they be kind, else I burn them eternally in a pit of black fire.
fuck that stupid ring, your title is misleading. if I could do fucking anything, if I was king of the world and no one could stop me, I would:
1. outlaw heterosexual intercourse of any kind (for an unspecified amout of time) and issue the death penalty to anyone caught doing it, burned at the stake. so you can all see what it fucking feels like. :D
2. shut down all fast food and chain restraunts and take all the money from the CEOs/anyone at the head of them and use the billions of dollars to feed the hungry.
3. shut down hollywood and take all the money from all major celebrities and use it to feed the hungry/clothe the poor etc.
4. same w everyone at the head of Big Pharma.
5. make Thief my loveslave and never use any lube. :)
Why would you go out of your way to punish straight people? I can understand that being gay and being discriminated against isn't good, but there's no need to try and make everyone who's not being gay a criminal. If you do that, you're not any better than them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rottingteeth
And shutting down all restaraunts and fast food chains? Yeah, that wouldn't severly hurt the economy or anything. Same with shutting down Hollywood.
Clearly there's still a great deal of hate in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Parasite
People love their hate.
Love the sweet mellow taste of anchovies not hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
Anything?
Having "relations" with some of my old teachers.
Why do want me to "see what it fucking feels like" when I have never had a problem with homosexuality and certainly have never been against it and in fact always actually wondered what the big deal is?Quote:
Originally Posted by rottingteeth
Having a ring of invisibility,
I would be become a stage illusionist, and makes lots of money by disappearing right before their very eyes.
If I could make another nearby person turn invisible too, maybe by touching them, I would rent myself out to celebrities, with the service of being able to help them escape from papparizzi situations.
I would use my money to escape from this no longer free country, and become an invisible wildlife photographer. I bet you can get great shots when the animals don't know you are there.
And when I am old and grey, I'd find someone named "Frodo" to give it to :) Sorry I couldn't resist.
a little indirect blow towards Christianity, hmm??Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
some good answers there.
the reason i ask this is because when i thought about it, i immediately thought that i would still have my morals and stick to them. but when i thought about it for a bit longer i thought, wait a minute, maybe i would end up stealing stuff.
so i guess i just wanted to see if everyone's morals are only based on the fact that they'll get caught if they go against their morals.
I think a life of crime would be too hard to maintain, even with invisibility there would be too much chance of eventually being caught. So much easier to use the invisibility for legal purposes. All those super-villains in comic books, they usually have powers and inventions which could quite legally make them filthy rich and a lot better off than by committing super-crimes. So why in heck are they doing the super-villainy?Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
But maybe I only think that because of my morals? Even if I knew for certain I'd never be caught, I still wouldn't victimize others just because I could, not as long as there were other alternatives. I'd know, and in the last analysis we have to face ourselves.
to be honest i was only saying that to carry a point across, although i did have to think about it for a while. but i realised that i could have some fun legally. for example i could even stop people being mugged etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by starry eyes
you said it would be possible to legally make money, how exectly?
As I mentioned in one of the posts above-Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
Stage magician (behold, the lady really does vanish ...) most magicians have to try pretty hard to make things disappear. With the power of invisibility, you could have the best act ever, that no one could figure out, and it would be a lot easier.
Celebrity invisibility service. For those days when you *really* want to lose the press photographers.
World's best nature photographer
There are probably a lot more possibilities.
oh yea, very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by starry eyes
or you could go the other way on it and go for the best ever celebrity paparazi. although i think my morals would tell me not to do that one
If you asked me that some time ago, I'd have used it to kill GW Bush. Now... I can't see that many uses to it.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kromoh
I wasn't...serious...or at least I was really, really exaggerating .__.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamQueen
You're evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by rottingteeth
Once I asked my friend if she'd steal if she could become invisible, she said yes immediately. I think I'd do the same. But I'd steal from rich people whou wouldn't miss a little money stolen or from shops directly (business owners are supposed to be well off).
I would go inside of the White House and take pictures of everything I see.
Wait, they have thermal cameras...and goggles...oh shit...
That wasn't my intention, actually. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AirRick101
The words would be reserved for the more inconsiderate folk that I meet on a daily basis. The pit of black fire sounds like a reasonable threat when it's coming from a disembodied voice, you know. Perhaps they'd wise up and take my advice. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ah, I'd be doing the world a great service.
Yeah, I think I would fuck with people like Invader - whisper in thier ears, watch them freak out. I'd also break into places, probably rob a bank. Um free circus animals and make Dr. Phil go absolutely badshit insane :mwahaha:
Why is it a "blow"? That's exactly what Christianity does. Funny you should call an accurate description of it a "blow"! Although to more accurately portray Christianity, replace "people" with "children".Quote:
Originally Posted by AirRick101
I would use my powers to improve the world.
But I probably wouldn't be able to resist eavesdropping on a few conversations every now and then! :D
I would steal from everybody in this thread who said they would steal.
I'd hack an admin account.
I'd rob banks, and casinos, until I amassed about $500 million.
If I had this so called "ring of invisibility," (LotR reference, anyone?) I would:
1) Try to listen what people are saying behind my back. As an insecure individual, knowing what everybody thinks of me is something that I'd really want.
2) Fuck with politicians' heads. Maybe slip a few some psychedelics so they think that they're going crazy.
3) Become a spy. Figure out what some of the of corporations are doing to consumers and expose it.
haha, oh ye, never thought about that kind of thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Danciu
well all these kind of roadblocks would be taken away. because it is a philosophical question, not just a question of what an invisibility ring would do.
lol! I love how your crime doesn't need any invisibility to be pulled off :D But I guess, you knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by [SomeGuy]
I would probably try doing good things... and mess with people's mind... I'd maybe steal but not from people except maybe for dirty rich peeps who have no apreciation for what they have... I would not do crimes that could hurt anyone, that's stupid to my eyes. I'd probably evesdrop and walk in buses without being notice and have to pay 2 dollars (I can save so much that way! Ain't I smart! :P)
Actually in a sense it does requires invisibility, just not physcially. Unless he plans on not getting away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough
Nice :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
It pisses me off how people say things like "I'd steal from rich people who wouldn't miss a little money stolen or from shops directly (business owners are supposed to be well off)." I've just been out to dinner with some guys who have built their businesses from scratch over the past decade and at the beginning one of them was working 80-100 hours a week! So many people begrudge wealthy people without stopping to consider all the hard work those people have put in.
Rant over :lol:
Making sweeping statements about people begrudging wealthy people is not right. It's a personal evaluation.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamQueen
I'd find it difficult to steal from the poor, that's all I said, would you be able to do it if you thought that it would make somebody starve or store money for a necessity like a refrigerator for months? I think not. How much who worked is really of no matter when you evaluate their ability to survive after being robbed.
I totally agree. Success alone is not evil. People's rights to their possessions should be respected. They are THEIRS, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamQueen
So, it's okay if I steal your CD collection because you will be able to survive just fine without it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Edit: And I don't say that I would enjoy it. But from the thief's perspective it's better to steal from me than from poorer people.
I'd be a spy. Then I could kill shit and get paid. :D
I'm hoping you only replied yes to UM's question to be argumentative and you don't actually endorse theft. I'll give the benefit of the doubt (not that there's much benefit) since anyone who thinks stealing is acceptable can't be a very nice person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Why are you not pulling out the holier-than-thou attitude with everybody else in this thread who said that they're going to steal, am I special? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamQueen
My post was directed at everyone who said they'd steal. Notice I said "It pisses me off how people say things like..." and then I happened to use your quote. The "like" indicates that what follows is an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
I guess I chose your post as my example because it also contained the specific and common misconception that business owners (as opposed simply to rich people) are "well off and wouldn't miss a little money stolen" from their business. Business and shop owners can't necessarily afford to lose money. I know a lady whose business went under due to shop theft. She lost her life savings that she'd invested into it from working as a nurse. It irks me how many people automatically assume that shops/companies can afford to absorb financial loss from theft and I wanted to set the record straight since I am a business owner myself.
So no, you are not special :P
As for referring to me as "holier than thou", you should be thankful there are still some people with morals in the world.
That's your personal opinion, somebody else's opinion doesn't have to be a "misconception" only because it clashes with yours... That said, I've seen both types of business owners. Some were hard workers and didn't have much, and one guy I knew was bleeding his workers dishonestly by paying them miserable money for good work and feeding them by fake promises. Old workers would realize what's going on and leave, but new ones would come to replace them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamQueen
People are so different and the world is not so black-and-white that making all-inclusive rules is possible. I'm surprised that such conversation even ensued in a thread that was supposed to be funny if anything ;)
This attitude is rather annoying. Often people who have their noses high up in the air stand in their own dirt without noticing it.Quote:
As for referring to me as "holier than thou", you should be thankful there are still some people with morals in the world.
First of all, I find it incredibly ironic that after admitting on a public forum that you think it's okay to steal from someone you then turn around and insinuate that I'm probably immoral. How ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Second, it is not my "personal opinion". You are the one who made the "all-inclusive rule" (as you like to put it) that
which implies all business owners are well off. I simply wanted to correct this misconception by informing you that no, not all business owners are well off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Anyway, I don't wish to discuss it further.
Does that imply certainty in English?Quote:
(business owners are supposed to be well off).
Hey Arutad, you were right in that we’ve got completely sidetracked from the original point of the thread which was meant to be fun! So let’s not argue anymore. Here’s a smiley for you…
:hug:
Aww thanx :biggrin: Have something to drink! :cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamQueen
But now I'm really interested in what "supposed to" implies. One dictionary tells me that it implies duty, like "she's supposed to do the cooking today". So if I say "I suppose" does it mean certainty, like "I'm sure that.."? I used to use this construction a lot.
It's close to it yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Personally I think think that stealing is morally wrong in 99% of situations.
There are never any total black and white rules though.
However, someone elses relative need for the item (survival or otherwise)
isn't a good moral yardstick of if it is justifiable to take it from them.
A better yardstick would be the need of the person considering stealing in relation to the need of the owner.
For example a very poor man who is starving, stealing food from the owner of a shop, I would say, is more justifiable - than say, a poor man who i starving stealing from another poor starving man.
Another way to look at it is, is it ok to steal stolen good from a thief? (if you are not the original owner?)
But theft, can be many things. A rapist is a form of thief.
Is it ok for for a man who can never get sex, to rape a beautiful woman who can get it whenever she wishes?
I think the answer is obviously not, it is still a vile crime and utterly unjustified.
I think the simplest answer, regarding theft, is that you can never be sure of the impact your crime will have on the victim. A seemingly rich business mans entire business will rest on a point, where theft of items will push his business into impossible to sustain territory. You can never be sure if your crime will be the one that tips the balance.
What is interesting in this thread is that, considering the title is "what if you could get away with anything?", that people seem to default to doing things that are illegal, rather than considering the options for improving the world.
But i do think that it is easy to be moral when not faced with this "getting away with anything power". I myself would find it mighty tempting if i could walk into a bank and walk away with a million dollars, with no consequence.
The problem is it's all a matter of degree. If you can steal from a rich bank and justify it, it is only a matter of small subtle steps, until you can justify crimes that initially seem morally completely corrupt.
Perhaps the saying "absolute power, corrupts absolutely" is true after all?
Unfortunatly it seems that most humans define there actions on if they will cause a negative consequence for them. Rather than realising that all humans want to avoid negativity in life, and trying to avoid creating negativity in the world as a whole.
Stealing would create negativity for the victim.
They too are human, like ourselves.
Rather than focus on personal consequence, it is best to focus on the consequence of the world you live in.
Do we want to be creating a world in which people greedily mind their own interests? or a world in which people try and make each others lives better?
One path leads to a world of fighting, greed and paranoia,
the other leads to peace, kindness and trust.
A victim of theft, may in the future become cynical about other humans, and so less caring, and may eventually be pushed to commit crimes themselves... because they conclude that "it happened to me, so i have a right to do it myself"... and once that chain of thinking is created, eventually it'll come back to bite you in the arse.
Whilst i am not a fan of the word "karma", I do think if there is any such thing as Karma, it is the idea that your actions will create a wave of either positivity or negativity that will wash over the world you too inhabit.
Do you want to be drowned in waves of negativity to which you were party to creating? or do you wish to create waves of harmony, that make the world better for yourself and others?
That's my take on the situation.
Haha, nice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader
Yeah I would definitely fuck with people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by l000needles
:shock:
>_> jk
Lol. That would be some interesting porn to see.
I'd hide behind politicians and sing really loudly whenever they started talking.
I don't have much of a morals, so in my case it is called the survival instinct. It's not any ethical approach that keeps me from committing things, but it's more my brain that warns me not to do things if they have a chance to ruin my existing life. Therefore, if I noticed an opporturnity to commit something that I want with great chances of succeed, I will commit it. ( Taken it won't ruin my other possibilities for something else.)Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
Luckily I don't want to do everything so I don't have to constantly evaluate my actions.
i dont really have morals, so if i could get away with anything thats what i would do anything i wanted, if I had a ring that made me invisible
mygod the world would be in for it
your avatar looks like bill murray
I think riding a horse would be funny
THATS STEVE MOTHER FUCKIN ZISSOUQuote:
Originally Posted by dreamingofdreaming
played by bill murray
oooo yeah :smitten:
Hmm...this is a very interesting subject. Was your class studying Plato's "The Republic" by any chance? Something like this is brought up in Book II. In it, Socrates and Glaucon are debating the merits of justice vs. injustice. Glaucon argues that justice is disagreeable but desirable because it offers protection from theft, murder, etc; committing an injustice and getting away with it is the greatest good, and not being able to punish someone else for an injustice they visited on you is the greatest evil.
In order to illustrate his point, he recounts the story of a Lydian shepherd who finds a ring which makes him invisible, and uses it to become King. He finishes by stating that if both a just man and unjust man were given such a ring that "no man can be imagined of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with anyone at his pleasure...the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point."
Now, I think things have become more complicated since then. What with fingerprinting and DNA testing, occasionally police don't need visual evidence. Not to mention that it takes much more to become a world leader these days. However, it'd still be pretty easy to shoplift whatever you wanted, and the pickpocketing oppurtunities this would open up are unbelievable. You wouldn't have to work another day in your life! So, I'm inclined to believe that most people would engage in at least a few unsavory activities. I know I would. The temptation would simply be too great.
^thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael
.
This thread made me think of this:
Personally, I'd just do whatever random things I felt like. Mostly just fun things, like everyone else. As for the idea of becoming unethically motivated ... uhh, well it's quite possible.
if you ever seen the movie than that is my futureQuote:
Originally Posted by dreamingofdreaming
fuck ya whitest kids u knoQuote:
Originally Posted by Vampyre
humans dont really have ethics when shit comes to shit, you'd eat another person if you had to
Probably because ethics change from person to person. Overall, it's agreed upon to not harm others, but when there's no reason to restrain yourself ... everything's up in the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by stnicka
Hence why the word anarchy is associated with a destructive society. Anarchy, means no government. With no government, there are no laws. With no laws, there's no punishment or anything besides the will of other people to stop you from doing anything.
Nothing except survival of the strongest and fittest. Quite logical and rational option, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampyre
FUCK YEAHQuote:
Originally Posted by Unelias
darwinism
Darwinism or not, if humans are stripped of their morals that's the way it works. Animals don't have moral, therefore their only option is to be strong or sly enough to live. Humans are basically same, just a bit more complicated with social structures, social skills and tools we have invented.
And this is great that we're social... At least from my point of view: if everybody behaved like a barbarian I couldn't even walk out of the house without being raped :(
And lack of morals means lack of any friends. I prefer to have friends :)
I don't see how lack of morals prevents you from having friends :) could you elaborate please? Even if you immoral it doesn't mean you have all the urges in the world. I see no problem there, at least not in my life.
Well if you have no morals then in case you can profit by betraying a friend you would do it, right? Because you need money for survival ;) And you need food, clothes, sex, etc., all kinds of necessary things that you need and could steal or take from others. It's a moral viewpoint to care whether others survive or whether they help you or oppose you, if you only care for yourself you couldn't possibly have anybody who'd like to be your friend.
Egoistic urges are suppressed by morals or society conduct (which is the same imho).
Egoistic urges can also be supressed by sheer intelligence, because fulfilling the urge might threathen your own condition or even life. You could label it as survival instinct. Although purely egoistic, it has nothing to do with ethics :)
If the profit from betrayal is greater that the relationship. However, there are only a few people I can label as friends and they carry that title for a reason. I have yet found nothing that surpasses my interest for those people.Quote:
Well if you have no morals then in case you can profit by betraying a friend you would do it, right?
Those all are mundane things, which I can obtain from any source, in any way ( commonly accepted or unaccepted) . There is no need for betray a friend for such simple things. Now if there would be something I really crave on the other side of the scale, then the situation is different. Sadly, I doubt there is a being that can offer me such a prize.Quote:
And you need food, clothes, sex, etc., all kinds of necessary things that you need and could steal or take from others.
Rationally thinking you are indeed right. Yet humans are such a unrational bunch and there are people who deeply care me, even if I am extremely chaotic and unpredictable yet they accept it. Life is strange.Quote:
if you only care for yourself you couldn't possibly have anybody who'd like to be your friend.
True. The pressure from other people intimitates you and prevents you from doing what your want, even if you personally think it is just. It is just the lack of strength against so many people :)Quote:
Egoistic urges are suppressed by morals or society conduct (which is the same imho).
That only goes for the weakest, what should the stronger ones do? They can always avoid suppressing their urges because the weaker ones exist and can be robbed or exploited in any other way without repercussions. (And in amoral society based on survival no repercussions would exist, we're talking about the power in hands of those who're better fit for survival..)Quote:
Originally Posted by Unelias
This is admirable :). But I wasn't insisting that you're a bad friend. I think that you do use moral rules in your life, however, even though you prefer to label them differently. For example, the very passage quoted above sounds moral to me :) A "friend" status means a lot to you, and you value such special people higher than profit.Quote:
If the profit from betrayal is greater that the relationship. However, there are only a few people I can label as friends and they carry that title for a reason. I have yet found nothing that surpasses my interest for those people.
Btw I'm not using the word "moral" as a curse or something connected to religion and saints, or to holier-than-though attitude. Saying just in case, some people hate it because of these connotations...
So if you happen to be very strong, nothing will stop you from doing what you want? :)Quote:
True. The pressure from other people intimitates you and prevents you from doing what your want, even if you personally think it is just. It is just the lack of strength against so many people :)
This is indeed the most interesting part and the core reason why I am fascinated with the concept of strength. Can a human achieve such a strength than he don't even have to suppress his urges? This is also reason why this topic is such an interesting one : will power demolish morals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
We haven't discussed this enough for us to understand each other :) I am a nihilist of a sort, therefore I don't believe in concept of wrong or right. I hold no principles or doctrines which would guide my way. Even though true extreme nihilism denies values in everything, I do hold some sort of "values" but none which couldn't be overthrown after right situation. My point is being that I cannot profit much of betraying my friends, unless I want to bother swindling them from everything they own. I am rational man though and there is no need to waste time for something like that, which can be achieved by easier means withoyut losing those people. Lastly, I don't have much use for material, my motives are much more non-materealistic :)Quote:
This is admirable . But I wasn't insisting that you're a bad friend. I think that you do use moral rules in your life, however, even though you prefer to label them differently. For example, the very passage quoted above sounds moral to me A "friend" status means a lot to you, and you value such special people higher than profit.
That's a good clarificiations, but I rarely assosicate it with religion anyways. Moral probably would exist even without religion as it is now. :)Quote:
Btw I'm not using the word "moral" as a curse or something connected to religion and saints, or to holier-than-though attitude. Saying just in case, some people hate it because of these connotations...
Right to the point. Even better world than strong would be capable. It consist all traits that help to that goal. Only flaw in this plan is that what I want is something that most likely humans will never achieve. If I were just a bloodlustly sexual predator, things would be much worse. Luckily, I consider myself quite sophisticated :PQuote:
So if you happen to be very strong, nothing will stop you from doing what you want?
I gotta go now, I'll be on next time at the weekend :) interesting conversation, as always with you.
-Un
I think a better way to phrase Arutad's point would be to simply say: "In a morally unstable world, you would have less friends." Which is true, because there'd be fewer reasons to trust people.
Kinda like how in most zombie movies, the people are edgey and untrusting. It's because they never know when something's gonna turn on them. In such a scenario, it's more of a priority to take care of yourself than make friends. Although, that doesn't mean you won't have any; just less than in a civilized environment.
You're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampyre
And that's about morally unstable, what about complete lack of moral rules?
I guess it boils down to whether people have a real necessity, a kind of instinct, to have friends or not. If we do, then no matter how amoral we are, we'd still be afraid to lose our friends and would treat them well.
By "morally unstable" I meant that there was no significant reason to have morals. Like a place without laws, courts, prisons, etc. But even in a world like that, people would still have some sense of morality. It's just that it would be much more unstable, because of how untrustworthy people would become.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
If I could get away with anything...
I'd get away with breaking the laws of Physics,Chemistry and Biology...
I'd then hurl myself at lightspeed away from this planet, and go in search of somewhere nicer, preferably with less angry naked monkeys obsessed with collecting bits of elaborate slips of paper and metal with famous peoples faces printed in profile.
How misanthropic... :D Imho if you hate how things work then it's easier to change how they work than change laws of biology, chemistry, and physics just for escaping ;)
Maybe, but then you don't get to go explore the Universe do you :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Anyway, it's my fantasy... get you're own!! :D
Okay, so I know there have been lots of answers already, and the conversation is going off track....
BUT...
If I were invisible and therefor could get away with anything, I would:
1. Rob casinos, donate a portion of the money to charity and spend the rest of it on useless things like cosplay and whatnot...
2. (as has been said before) talk to people when they can't see me and claim that I am the voice of God. Hopefully, this would lead to a new successful world religion which believes that God is in fact a female.
3. ( assuming I could make other people invisible, or found other people with the same power) Find some heavily guarded place with both regular cameras and thermal ones, and bring a good buddy to have sex with in front of them. This would confuse the security gaurds, because they can't SEE the two people fucking, yet the cameras are picking up the two people there.
And I would honestly love to do these things, but I'm kidding (somewhat). If any of you call me on the fact that these are far fetched or impractical, I may have to eat you.
How far does the bounds of "Anything" go? Anything within the laws of physics, or really anything? Assuming we have to stay within the laws of physics here, it would depend on the state of things.
I wouldn't go out and purposely kill or otherwise hurt someone who didn't have it coming, but at the same time, I would try to further my own life and those around me within those reasons.
The question isn't really about how much you could get away with, it's if you had the power to be invisible, which makes it EASIER to get away with a lot of things.
But, people have posted as if it meant they could do whatever they want without punishment. I guess it's up to you.
Steal from the poor and give to the rich to even out Bonsay's actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
:bravo:Quote:
Originally Posted by Koalaman
I like the wispering in people's ear thing. I would probably sit in on some of the secret meetings that go on in the upper echelon's of our society. I'd probably also fight crime. Above all else though, I'd be extremely careful crossing the street.
You could start with fighting about half the people in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
LULULLUL I'D MURDER AND KILL AND RAPE AND STEAL AND SET THINGS ON FIRE
What's wrong with you people.
Then I'd just have to kill you. Oh and you couldn't save yourself from this one, because I could have gotten away with anything,Quote:
Originally Posted by Koalaman
I would keep some of my morals. I wouldn't kill anyone, maybe assault them if they have done something horrible, to me or someone I care about. I might commit a lot of thefts, but only from rich people, chain stores, where it won't really effect them.
I also would let myself be free, I wouldn't tolerate people bossing me around, trying to limit my rights/freedom.
I have my own internal moral compass that MOSTLY fits with modern western culture. That being said, I could see myself slipping into the Wrath of God mind-state more often as well as do more for others than I do now.Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
The Vaults in the Vatican...yes. I would LOVE to read what was deemed to "dangerous" to the souls of the common man by the Powers That Be. Something saved from the library burned in Alexandria would be awesome beyond expression to be able to read.
~I tend to render myself as invisible as possible in general (without a ring or cloak LOL), I do not like to be noticed.~
In LVX,
Morrigan
I would wreak sooo much havoc...
Yeah, I'd haunt people, just for chuckles and grins. Perhaps I'd hang out at the girls' locker room at the gym...I'd definitely beat up some people that have been asking for it for a long time. Yeah, I'd rob a bank or two, punch out a mugger, punch out a street preacher, kick Rush Limbaugh in the nuts, kick George Bush in the nuts, then bitchslap him...
Man, without society to keep me in line, I turn into a real ass, don't I? :D
!! That wuz my thread!! ^.^Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Anyway, I probably wouldn't have morals. I could do anything, and why not take advantage of that?? That's like winning the lottery, then burning the money!! Like suing McDonalds for all they have, winning, then tearing all of them down!!
dude you winQuote:
Originally Posted by spaceexplorer
i side with you
lets get the fuck out of here
If I were invisible, I'd hop on planes and travel the world. I'd be able to go to the best locations, hotels, mansions, shows, see celebrities up close (maybe even see them privately), and no one would be any the wiser. I could sneak in a car on a road trip and just observe the people traveling.
Now THAT would be the best life.
it would be fun for a while, but I could imagine after a week this would turn into a nightmare. Being there, but nobody can tell or have any knowledge of your presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
plus it would be boring as shit and you would probably get hungryQuote:
Originally Posted by Bizarre Jester
it wasn't said that we couldn't eat. I also misunderstood the question. It is a ring, which means we should be able to take it off at any time and be visible/normal again.Quote:
Originally Posted by stnicka
I've got it!! Keep it in my pocket so at any given moment I can slip it on and sexually harass/ peek up girls skirts!!
rape?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheLucid
(no rapist)
(yes rapist):lol:
I'd have some nice paintings on my wall.
Of course I'd make sure they were found by the right people when I died. :D
XDQuote:
Originally Posted by stnicka
All these answers just go to show that some people are good because of the consequences, and some people are good because it is the right thing to do.
Someone who does the right things because of consequences is not a good person. Someone who does good things because they know it is just the right thing to do is a good person, this goes for anyone whether you are religious or not.
So I now know some of you are not good people.
Admittedly, I think I would maybe steal some small things, but nothing worth more that 2 pounds. (around 3-4 dollars) So I am not perfect either.
Yup, I'm a bad person. No arguing with that. Why on earth do you think I wanted to start having lucid dreams? So I could wreak all sorts of mayhem and havoc, mostly. :P
It really took a whole thread for you to figure that out?? Really??Quote:
Originally Posted by slash112
Haha, no. It's more to make you guys realise what is good and what is not good, some of you may think about this question and realise more about yourself.
I am not saying you are bad people, I am just saying you are not particularly good. Slight difference.
I would exercise justice that is often failed to be administered. This would include murder. Namely, I'd hop a plane, jump over to the middle east, and just SLAUGHTER extremists.
I could go for some of that. I'd LOVE to carpet bomb some Taliban bastards.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini0991
That is pretty messed up. You can get away with anything, so you go murder people?
Yup, pretty much. Think of it more as dispensing justice. You're just punishing those who so richly deserve it. I'm just saying, if the opportunity presented itself, I would hijack an F-16 and rage hell against the Taliban. They've earned it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Even though there are many innocent people there that do not deserver to die...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
If that wasn't the case they would have nuked it a long time ago.
Being invisible lets you systematically pick off those who deserve it and spare those who don't.
yup mini
Except i would make it look like the people who deserve it are the ones killing eachother. It would make it much better to see them both killed because of eachother.
For example, you have 2 guys you hate. they are horrible people and they should die.
You steal one of their cars and spray paint "faggot" on the side. you drop the othe rpersons wallet next to the car.
bam. they start fighting. you pick one off while they are at home, then the law thinks it was the other guy that killed him. he goes to jail. you do the same thing, and make him get stabbed while in jail.
Starting chain reactions like that would be great fun.
And to answer the topics question. No i would not have morals. The only reason i dont do things like that is cause i would get caught. If it didnt effect me, i would do it. No exceptions.
you wouldnt?! FAGQuote:
Originally Posted by Alric
jk
So, Banana, you would loose your morals? Would you murder random innocent people for the fun of it?
Ya, that's kinda how it worksQuote:
Originally Posted by slash112
I was trying to get an answer from him...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLucid
He might realise that he would have some morals if he could get away with anything.
I'd scare the crap out of Obama, and then make him change the country for the better while threatening him with hell.
so a republican eyyy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid_Guy.exe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid_Guy.exe
Let's get him, boys! :mwahaha: :evil:Quote:
Originally Posted by stnicka
No, don't get me! I'm just expressing my political views!
*runs away
then you shall be raped(analy)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid_Guy.exe
If I could get away with Murder I still wouldn't commit murder. Cause even if Laws and Law enforcement would totally do nothing to stop or punish me if I killed someone, There is still my Guilty Conscious; It will stop me from doing "wrong" like stealing, murdering, deceiving, gossiping..etc and if I ever commit such a sin it will punish me with unbearable guilt.
If I could get away with "Quasi-crimes" such as distrubuting illegal psychedelics, making illegal psychedelic extracts and ingesting illegal psychedelics I certainly would. I don't mind crossing the laws, I only mind doing morally questionable things and entheogenesis is by no means a crime. Not even remotely. SO my guilty conscious has no problems with that.
I won't steal because I value honousty and Rightiousness. I won't kill because I value Life. I won't Gossip because I value straightforwardness and truth. I won't cheat because I value love and commitment. And I won't act against my own values, because it would weigh me down and punish me with Guilt.
I got my own laws. My own bible. My own moral guidance: It's called intuitition. And it's all I need to live pure and stay away from sin.
@ slash
I dont really have morals in the first place. The only reason i dont go on a rape/killing spree is because i would go to jail and/or be killed. If i could escape those consequences indefinitely then i would have no reason to not simply murder people for the fun of it.
And i dont see your logic in that last post, if i only dont do things because they would negatively effect me, why would i gain morals when there were no consequences?
Well, different people believe different things about morals, Banana.
Some believe a morally good action is one which has the best consequences for the greatest amount of people, some believe it is one which is done because it is their duty to do so.
Either one of them means you, Banana would gain morals if you did not kill, because there ARE consequences. Consequences which affect other people. And it is also every human's "duty" to not kill others.
Basically, morals aren't to do with self satisfaction, it is to do with how your actions effect others, and also your motive/intention behind what you do.
But i wouldnt really care if it affected other people. It is not affecting me and that is all that matters.
Evilllll
;D
Hmmz congratulations Banana, you are a PsychoPath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana
However I think you're much more likely bluffing and exagerating to create maximum Forum Drama. You're Psychopathic views are most likely a dramatic act.Quote:
Psychopathy (pronounced /saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2]) is a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy. Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators[3][4] who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence[5][6][7] to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse".[8] "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony."[9]
Psychopaths are glib and superficially charming, and many psychopaths are excellent mimics of normal human emotion;[10] some psychopaths can blend in, undetected, in a variety of surroundings, including corporate environments.[11] There is neither a cure nor any effective treatment for psychopathy; there are no medications or other techniques which can instill empathy, and psychopaths who undergo traditional talk therapy only become more adept at manipulating others.[12] The consensus among researchers is that psychopathy stems from a specific neurological disorder which is biological in origin and present from birth.[10] It is estimated that one percent of the general population are psychopaths.
Dont even get me starting on being a psychopath
It would be best for everyone.
If I stole money while invisible I would steal it from drug dealers who sell crack and heroin. I'd steal their drugs also so they couldn't continue to supply people with that crap. I'd take their illegal firearms and other weapons. I'd also take weapons from street gang members and organized criminals, and leave job applications for their local McDonald's on their beds.
And as someone else mentioned, I'd sneak into meetings of powerful people to find out what goes on behind closed doors...and I'd most definitely take a visit to NSA/CIA sites to see what they get to see on a daily basis. I'd also probably sit in on President Obama's daily briefings and secret meetings, although something tells me they don't always tell the President everything they know.
I'd find out which corporations are staffed with lying criminal executives who deceive customers and shareholders, collect evidence against them and deliver it to news outlets and prosecutors. I'd be the ultimate whistle blower.
As for violence, I wouldn't hurt anyone physically unless they were about to hurt a child (not talking about spankings, actual violence and abuse) or hurt someone unjustly.
I would mess with governments that does abuses in another countries.
AMEN, stealing from really evil people is justified. But the tricky part is what the defenition of Bad people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot
You and I would probably agree that Heroin/Crack dealers are scum, because they make a living out of destroying people's lives. Stealing money from crack dealers would only be good if it was done purely to sabotage their evil business. So steal the money and give it to a good cause.
However some people think Muslims, Gays, Atheists, Jews, Communists and Africans are bad people and that stealing from them, enslaving them, mass-murdering them..etc is justified. That's where the danger in generally "hurting people" lies; In who does the judging between good and bad people. And they stand by their beliefs very firmly allthough they are founded on prejudice, fear, lies and ignorance.
Then again I'm really on your side. Some groups of people(HeroinDealers/Corrupt Politicians, Presidents of zillion-dollar businesses) that have no moral conscience and are destroying/polarising earth's countries/societies with war, addiction, slavery, corruption..etc really ACTIVELY need to be taken down/sabotaged by the people like us if we ever wish to live free.
here's my take on the matter.....
if anyone had a 100% conviction that they could get away with anything, they WOULD do it.
the thought of punishment is the only reason why people avoid doing something declared illegal or frowned up in his country, which makes the police such an effective force. it is unrealistic to expect people to follow their good heart and do only good deeds whilst refraining from bad deeds.
so let's consider ourselves fortunate that there is no record of a single human being attaining invisibility :)
Too bad invisibility is useless except for the mundane.. I'm sure anything worth doing would have a heat sensoring system nearby.
I'd want to sneak in and spy on our government, and corporations...
I disagree; even if I knew I would never get caught I wouldn't go around slaughtering innocent people. Senselessly inflicting pain on someone else is either something you are okay with or not...unfortunately a lot of people are okay with it, but they are psychopaths with no conscience.Quote:
Originally Posted by AirRick101
So yeah, SOME people would get involved in committing harmful acts against others if they had no chance of punishment, but there are many people who instinctively know it is wrong to do so.
People that smoke crack or do heroin weren't forced into doing it.. Better off addressing the people with the substance abuse problem over the dealer.
I think the answers in this thread where people claim they would only steal from the rich and give to the poor, or only harm "bad" people is a bit misguided. No one is that altruistic.
Rather, if you were in such a situation there is no way to tell what you would be capable of. It's easy to say that you wouldn't do this or that but there is no telling how you would respond to such circumstances if you were actually facing it; not just considering a hypothetical query.
If i were in such a situation i would probably do a lot of evil things. Call me an asshole but at least i'm honest.
There are some things i wouldn't do( like beat an old lady to shreds with a baseball bat) but my threshold for evil would probably still be very high.
Some people have morals, and follow them.
Ah, but what imposes those morals? Society. Society conditions us to act and behave a certain way, and the only thing really keeping a lot of people on the right track is a fear of consequences. Society dictates what is acceptable and what is not, and the consequences of going against the grain tend to be rather great. If your actions are extreme enough, you're looking at a basic shunning from all those you care about. Without such a fear, however, one could argue the moral barriers collapse. It would take some time to undo the work of Society, but it can (and probably will) happen at some point if a person could get away with absolutely anything. Come on...you wouldn't rob a bank and live in comfort? I find that hard to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
I beg to differ.
I personally experience Morality to come from within. Intuition.
You can FEEL something is wrong when you're doing it, or even only think of doing it.
Off course we are hugely manipulated by our parents, by school, by the people around us, by school, by the law..etc People allways have anbd allways will try to manipulate other people.
Usually near the troublesome teenage people start rejecting mainstream, indoctrinated morals and form their own. Too bad far too many people never quite make that development and allways go with the strongest, most intimidating common beliefs.
Our society doctrinates financial wealth/profit to be the highest value.
It feeds people greed and ego-centricness from the cradle to the grave, so this is how masses of people have been properly confused and morally misguided by psychopath politicians and religious manipulators into supporting Racism/Discrimination, War, stereotyping, suppression and prosecution of "uncommon" beliefs/practices (Such as other cultures, Entheogenesis, Homo- and Bi-sexuality, Schizophrenic/Psychotic patients..etc)
All these behaviours are oppressed, prosecuted and so systematically destroyed. Just to remain the Dominant ideology.
In precicely this way all mayor Ideologies proclaim their beliefs to be Superior and "Right" while declaring all other Ideologies as inferior and "wrong".
Many Islamic religious people call the Western Culture evil, moral-less and god-less. And many Western people call Islam barbaric, evil and intolerant.
Catholicism often thinks itself to be superior to Judaism, Protestantism and Islam, demonising Judaism, Islam and Protestantism along thwe way. And vice versa.
Similairly many Krishna people look down uppon Western culture as something pure evil, god-less and meaningless. There seems to be plenty of Hatred and Judgement to go round.
Very "Coincidentally" they(all these Ideologies in general) all claim their own Ideology to be the one and only truth.
And I say the only Truth(which equals "God" in this context) is to be found within oneself; Intuition.
Call it God, Jahweh, Addonnai, Elohim, Allah, Krishna or Santa Klaus.... But if you seek this higher state of being, seek it within yourself.
If, for instance, I am tempted to steal from a friend my Intuition will attack me with incredible force: I'd be wayed down with feelings of guilt, shame and general uncomfortability. For merely considering it. If, rather than eating food alone in other people's presence, I share my food with someone this gives me a very warm, joyfull feeling. This is the moral Guidance so many call "God".
So if this is Intuitive guidance system is built in into my mind naturally, telling me right from wrong, then why on Earth would I need any book or preacher(or Society moral for that matter) to tell me right from wrong?
Our own Morality is due to societal influences with some minor input from ourselves.
For most people, their intuition only informs their morality somewhat.
It doesn't change the fact that our perceptions of right and wrong are largely informed by the what our collective society views as thus.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKA
In our societies, we are conditioned to think what is wrong and what is right based on what other people think is so.
For some isolated jungle tribes in Papua New Guinea it is or once was (up to 1950) a common practice to eat the brains of the deceased, or to consume part or all of their corpse. This was their way of paying their respects to the departed strangely enough.
To them they don't think twice about it. It's a part of their societies culture and they probably see it as a way of paying homage to the deceased.
If someone from say New Jersey was to sit down with them and be invited to tear of a piece of the departeds' ear; they would probably be quite disgusted and think that was extremely disrespectful. But to a Papua New guinean it would be a part of the mourning process and a way to celebrate the deceased life.
The reason a person from the states would have such a contrary position to a papua new guinean is purely societal. We are conditioned to believe this or that is right or appropriate or inappropriate for a given situation from societies wider common values.
Sure a persons intuition can influence their morality to an extent, but for the most part, your morality is derived from the common values of the wider society that you inhabit.
So to go back to what you were saying. If i was eating or thinking of eating my dead mother's corpse, i would have a nagging feeling in my head that "this is not fucken right, this is fucken disrespectful and disgusting" but a Papua New Guinean from a certain part of the Island would view it as not only appropriate but an essential part of the grieving process.
Sorry for the crappy analogy, but that's all i could come up with.
"Edit"
To conclude. Morality is not a choice for the most part. It is rather something inherited from the society in which you are raised.
^All of that. If you're raised to be a serial killer (hey, it could happen), then you would find killing to be perfectly moral. Morals don't really come from within, imho. The brain is not automatically wired to know the differences between "right" and "wrong." These two terms are highly ambiguous, and vary widely between cultures. Morals are not instinctive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soros
Also, as an atheist, I don't buy the "soul" or "higher power" arguments. :D
You know, why not harm people we classify as "bad" instead of the innocent?? I'd probably do that, know that I think about it. But I would also do things that are illegal but not 'harmful'. I most likely wouldn't kill innocent people but I might peek up a chikk's skirt or something.
You cannot possibly know how you would react in such a situation where you would find your self freed from the consequences of your actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLucid
Consider this quote:
He who believes he knows the ending of things before they begin is either a very wise person or an idiot. Regardless, he is unhappy for he hast drove a knife into the heart of wonder. -Osten Ard
How do you know you would limit yourself to just "peaking up her skirt" until you are actually invisible and in that actual situation?
Perhaps the knowledge that you would not incur consequences would seem very liberating and you would perhaps do more than just "peek".
Your conscious might object, but you could at the same time have lowered inhibitions due to the knowledge that you would have no consequences.
By the way, this is not a judgement on your character. Rather it is just speculation on human nature.
How much of our "moral" behavior is our own conscious at work? And how much is our subconscious knowing that society would view these behaviors with disgust, and the threat of incarceration? (just putting this out there)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
I couldn't agree more. But let us assume that there is a "higher power",if only for the sake of argument.
Why would he care about the conduct of those of us on earth anymore than a bee keeper or owner of an ant colony would care about the conduct of their specimens?
Certainly if such a being existed, we would be nothing more than ants to him.
Indeed. What I was referring to was the argument that morality stems from a higher power. I don't buy this, for exactly the reason you just mentioned, plus my aforestated atheism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soros
Yeah you can, it's called lucid dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soros
:P
It seems to me that the people insisting that EVERYONE would end up doing evil deeds are only saying that because they feel bad about the fact that they know they themselves would do evil things if they could do so unpunished.
I agree with SKA's assessment about morality: it begins from a foundation of individual intuition. That basically makes morality a subjective phenomenon, but everyone claiming that all morality is imposed on individuals by society are looking only at institutionalized morality and ignoring that it comes from an intuitive basis.
When I was a child, I recall accidentally stepping on a bird egg while playing outside. My older sister just laughed but I started crying, extremely upset that I had just "killed" what would have been a baby bird.
At that point, I had never attended church and wasn't yet indoctrinated into any kind of institutionalized morality. I just felt it to be wrong. And clearly my elders at the time did not feel the same horror as I did, and according to the "morality comes from society" model I should have first looked to their reactions and then adopted them as my own.
And yet I didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
No I wouldn't. I find money on the ground in peoples wallets and return them.
Morals come from far more places than just society. Just because some of society relies on a fear of consequences, I don't. We all know how people come to moral standings, from their parents first and foremost, and others.. But we aren't all living in fear of consequences, my morals are based on whether or not they harm someone. I smoke marijuana but refuse to steal.. Both are illegal, but one is harming someone else... Not everyone is so sad and pitiful as you describe.
But it is not that way for everyone, my friend. We all have different minds and states of consciousness, we all have different thoughts and views on things ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
You do that because you think it is the right thing to do. What instills those beliefs? Yeah, society. If you grew up in the jungle, stealing would probably come naturally.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
Morality is hugely influenced from society and the values of who you grow up with. I have friends who grew up on reserves and were taught to steal and those who grew up under the influence of delinquent brothers and basically, their morals reflect their core influences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot
Your morals and values are a reflection of societies overall values at the end of the day. I'm not denying the role of intuition on some level but what i am saying is your core values come from your surrounding environment.
The foundation for what your values are come from the values of society. It's not just something that you know "is right", it's what society has imprinted on you.
After all, it's no coincidence that if you travel to different regions and countries that you will find people in these places have similar values to each other.
For morals to be the sole product of you and only you, you would have to eliminate the variable of societal influences and explain to me exactly why a child is not influenced by societal values at all but comes up with their own.
Consider the fact that a child raised in a christian environment will grow up believing in christ, a muslim in allah etc. Religions carry with them a set of moral teachings among other things. If a person can latch onto a religion which is basically a set of moral teachings among other things so easily, why can they not latch onto a set of moral beliefs just as easily?
How is the role of forming your own moral beliefs independent from societies influences ?
This is a blanket statement with nothing to back it up.... I do it because I understand that harming others is wrong, I learned that from my parents if anyone not society... The society I grew up in is less than pure...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Many people live in the "jungle" and don't steal.
I don't know why people seem to think society is the main cause of our morals, when it's only a secondary source compared to your parentals.. And we must not forget no matter what morals we acquired from our parents, or from society.. many people break away from what would be expected for their life.. Otherwise no one would ever convert to other religions, no one would murder except those who were never taught that killing is wrong, yet I believe some serial killers or murderers have come from what could be viewed as a healthier moral standpoint.
If I could get away with doing anything, I'd create my own delicious food, I'd transform into a bipedal fox, I'd have lots of sex , I'd be very loving and caring to everyone.
stealing what for , If I can get away with anything like creating what I want. =P
Actually not everything is what society imposes on you, they can't impose every little things on you, every little aspect or feeling you have, they can't reach that far, you can impose them by yourself from external stuff, but the feelings are created internally, moved by your thoughts, actions or other peoples thoughts and actions. That's why every one isn't equall in morality with another person.
That's why you can still feel diferent from other people , and understand feelings you don't like and like. It's like someone likes jam and another person doesn't, someone likes stealing and another person doesn't. It's internal.
Society makes people believe they are powerless, and are nothing , that's pretty sad in my opinion.
i would do everything I'm not supposed to do... That human nature I think.
Oh, and I would make this one specific person crazy by moving things in his house and making him hear things... hehe...
But then if you steal something or whatever, it's only you imagining you did it, you didn't actually ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot
Think.
Your parents were raised and conditioned by society. They are part of society. You learned your moral values through your parents, and therefore, society. Had you grown up somewhere else in the world, born to different parents, then they would have raised you differently, as they would have been a part of a different society.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
I'm talking if you grew up alone in the jungle, with no one to care for you. Now I ask: if you had this miserable existence and stumbled upon a small village with a fruit stand sitting out, would you honestly not steal from it? Would there be any twinge of guilt at all? The answer is probably "no."Quote:
Many people live in the "jungle" and don't steal.
Parents and society are one in the same. Your parents are very likely to pick up a lot of values from society in general, and their past parents. People do learn to break away on some level, but for the most part, morals stick with you. When your parents raise you to know the difference between right and wrong, they are conditioning a part of your brain. This conditioning is very hard to undo.Quote:
I don't know why people seem to think society is the main cause of our morals, when it's only a secondary source compared to your parentals.. And we must not forget no matter what morals we acquired from our parents, or from society.. many people break away from what would be expected for their life.. Otherwise no one would ever convert to other religions, no one would murder except those who were never taught that killing is wrong, yet I believe some serial killers or murderers have come from what could be viewed as a healthier moral standpoint.
But alas, I do know how I would react for it is my brain, and I know how it works a lot better than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soros
I don't how you would react either, all I'm saying is that its easy to say you would be an invisible robin hood but when actually faced with the situation you would probably react differently given the temptation and knowledge that you would incur no consequences to any of your actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLucid
If you were invisible for a year or so lets say, in that time you would be presented with thousands if not hundreds of thousands of tempting situations.
All you have to do is let your will falter once. Without the knowledge and pressure of societal condemnation and punishment I'm willing to bet that eventually your self righteous facade would crumble and you would give in to temptation like all humans would. However, that said there is no telling how one would react, all i can do is make an educated guess.
My parents were raised by their parents actually, society did not "raise" them as you said. Society has some role, but you seem to think it's the driving factor. It's not. Little quips and quirks in differences between cultures are caused by the society you grew up in, but generally speaking your most important qualities are learned from your parents.. not from strangers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
How would you know you are even stealing? If you have never had contact with other humans?Quote:
I'm talking if you grew up alone in the jungle, with no one to care for you. Now I ask: if you had this miserable existence and stumbled upon a small village with a fruit stand sitting out, would you honestly not steal from it? Would there be any twinge of guilt at all? The answer is probably "no."
This is blatant nonsense. Parents are a part of society, but all of society is not your parent. This makes no sense, you seem to be grasping.Quote:
Parents and society are one in the same.
Likely, but not for sure.. nor the main source..Quote:
Your parents are very likely to pick up a lot of values from society in general, and their past parents.
And it's the parents, as I said.. not society that conditions you. I'm not saying society as a whole has no part, but it is minuscule compared to the direct involvement of your parents.Quote:
People do learn to break away on some level, but for the most part, morals stick with you. When your parents raise you to know the difference between right and wrong, they are conditioning a part of your brain. This conditioning is very hard to undo.
You seem to be missing the point...your parents are extremely likely to hold the same general values that society holds, therefore, you are more or less conditioned by society, albeit indirectly. At some level, your parents must conform to society, or else they would be social outcasts. The degree to which they conform will vary, but in general, the vast majority of the population has parents that go with the grain and do what is expected of them by society.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
And really, do you honestly think humans have some sort of innate sense of morality? You basically proved that they don't when you pointed out that stealing would come perfectly naturally to a person not raised in society and not raised to have certain moral values. While the human mind may have an area or areas set aside for moral conditioning, it cannot decide what is right and what is wrong without being told that first. This it the main point in my argument. Morality is conditioned behavior.
An invisibility ring can't stop time.
Sigh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
My point was never that we have an innate sense of morality. Morality is a tough subject with many factors, one perhaps being something inside of us... I'm not willing to write it off.. because good people come from evil people, and vice versa.. You seem to think I am arguing.. we know just enough about how we come to our values. But much is still unknown, or not delved in deep enough yet.
If society only indirectly causes our morals, than one can easily be "manipulated" or totally sidestep society's influence.. so as I said... parents are the most important influence on our morals.. Whether they got some of their values from society at some point I understand, but it's my point that no one but our parents(whoever raises us) has more influence.
P.S. My point was that even if it is described as stealing a "feral" child would most likely have no clue other humans even exist, let alone that he stole when it's just placed somewhere. But would this feral child if he ran into another human try to murder? That seems to be a better judge on if any morals come from us innately.
Our parents may indeed be more effective at implanting moral beliefs and attitudes, but it is society that ultimately enforces these beliefs. When you get out into the real world, your parents are no longer there to keep you in line. Why don't you steal? Because society sees it fit to punish those who steal.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCell
I beg to differ. If the child saw no reason to kill, it would not. If the other human being posed a thread to the child, though, I would expect murder.Quote:
P.S. My point was that even if it is described as stealing a "feral" child would most likely have no clue other humans even exist, let alone that he stole when it's just placed somewhere. But would this feral child if he ran into another human try to murder? That seems to be a better judge on if any morals come from us innately.
That is not true, I don't steal because it's taking someone else's belongings... and many do steal.... So society seems to have little impact..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Than explain why their are serial killers who've probably grown up surrounded by morals and yet... kill for fun.Quote:
I beg to differ. If the child saw no reason to kill, it would not. If the other human being posed a thread to the child, though, I would expect murder.
Yet you wouldn't expect this child without morals to be docile, and instead just take an apple to feed one of it's hierarchy of needs?
Their are many places morals come from, the ones that we are born with, the ones that are imposed on us by our parents, and the ones imposed by society.
Those who steal do so because they think they can get away with it, combined with a lack of morality. But seriously...you must admit, the societal consequences of getting caught certainly deter you, don't they? I mean, you're looked down upon by your peers, people lose all trust and respect in you, and so forth. The consequences imposed by society are far more reaching than simple institutional punishment.Quote:
That is not true, I don't steal because it's taking someone else's belongings... and many do steal.... So society seems to have little impact..
People flip out. They alienate themselves from society. There are all sorts of reasons people go crazy. Check out the Unabomber. He went ballistic, and there are all sorts of psychological reasons to explain this.Quote:
Than explain why their are serial killers who've probably grown up surrounded by morals and yet... kill for fun.
Not sure where you're going with this, but...path of least resistance. Why engage someone in a battle to the death if there is no threat or harm? Even a feral child could figure this out. If the fight-or-flight mentality were to be tripped one way or another, and if the child were to have no escape, I would very much think the child would go ape on the offender.Quote:
Yet you wouldn't expect this child without morals to be docile, and instead just take an apple to feed one of it's hierarchy of needs?
Society and our parents are the two big ones. Parents tell us what's right and wrong, while society enforces these. And as of yet, I fail to see any convincing arguments to show that people are simply born with a set of moral beliefs. Looking over the vast array of cultures and moral systems on the planet, I don't see how any consistent set of beliefs could evolve to the point where it becomes instinct.Quote:
Their are many places morals come from, the ones that we are born with, the ones that are imposed on us by our parents, and the ones imposed by society.
We did something similar to this in my AP Psych class, although there was no magic invisibility ring, just absolute assurance that we would never be detected. Here's the list I came up with:
1. I'd watch Jude Law masturbate.
2. I'd steal a plane and fly it back to a deserted island.
3. I'd disable all the nuclear weapons/atomic weapons/weapons of mass destruction in the world, by breaking into the databases that contain this information.
4. I'd get liposuction to be a size 2.
5. I'd go to my favorite restaurant and buy all the desserts and eat them all. After all, I can just get the resulting fat sucked out. :cheeky:
6. I'd stow away on a space shuttle with a certain boy. Then, I'd have sex with him in zero gravity after we got to the space station.
7. I'd find a huge, blank wall and paint a mural on it, after stealing the paints and supplies from Michael's.
8. I'd go to Florence and touch all the Renaissance art.
9. I'd kiss strangers.
10. I'd go skinny-dipping.
If one had this much power their id or shadow would take over and ones main prioties would be : sex, violence and robbery
Very nice list!Quote:
Originally Posted by lovelyrita
I'd probably just gather supplies and live separated from the rest of the world for a couple decades.... I mean i'm not gonna get caught doing what i'm doing so i'd live my life how i want to, growing what i want to grow, eating what i want to eat. I'd have a free life.
i want to have zero gravity sexQuote:
Originally Posted by lovelyrita
I'm actually quite confident in my ability to snag something without someone noticing, I do it quite often to "fuck" with friends of mine.. like yank their wallet out of their back pocket etc... But I won't steal, regardless of my chances of getting caught. It's wrong to take what others have worked hard for. I honestly could careless what people think about me, I do things I know are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
So than morals really don't matter, nearly as much as our psychological state? So really what we learn or assimilate would be thrown out the window the moment we enter an odd mental state.Quote:
People flip out. They alienate themselves from society. There are all sorts of reasons people go crazy. Check out the Unabomber. He went ballistic, and there are all sorts of psychological reasons to explain this.
Why not eat the person, I'm sure this feral child can use a good slow catching meal. After all he'd have no morals.... Why would the fight or flight get tripped upon seeing a human.. Not enough detail is given.Quote:
Not sure where you're going with this, but...path of least resistance. Why engage someone in a battle to the death if there is no threat or harm? Even a feral child could figure this out. If the fight-or-flight mentality were to be tripped one way or another, and if the child were to have no escape, I would very much think the child would go ape on the offender.
You obviously didn't look very hard... I hardly doubt we are really born without any moral compass.. I believe it may be small, and obviously lots of moral beliefs are taught/learned/assimilated much later.Quote:
Society and our parents are the two big ones. Parents tell us what's right and wrong, while society enforces these. And as of yet, I fail to see any convincing arguments to show that people are simply born with a set of moral beliefs. Looking over the vast array of cultures and moral systems on the planet, I don't see how any consistent set of beliefs could evolve to the point where it becomes instinct.
It would be hard to figure out if this moral compass is their before our learning, especially since our original urgings could really get lost in the years of learning the morals that we acquire.
I'd murder someone...
isn't that what you made this thread for, to uncover the sick fucks at DV?
Seriously, I don't know what I'd do. I'd probably just do the same shit as always execpt maybe steal a shitload of money and kill all freemasons/illuminati
excluding, i presume, anything outside the laws of physics...
i'd definately burst into song and dance spontaneously in public whenever i felt the need, in the hopes others would join in. because i think the social world is lacking in that department.
and somehow finagle it so that i always won the lottery...at least until people stopped wasting their money on it, that is.
single-handedly change a slew of laws.
then become an international master of disguise...for a multitude of reasons.
and never work a conventional job again.
Given that this is an exercise in imagination, I fail to see how that matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLucid
If there were no real world consequences (as far as "getting away with anything") under this scenario, it would be exactly like a lucid dream.
There's no difference.