Thread: if you could get away with anything

Originally Posted by Banana

But i wouldnt really care if it affected other people. It is not affecting me and that is all that matters.

Hmmz congratulations Banana, you are a PsychoPath.

Psychopathy (pronounced /saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2]) is a personality disorder whose hallmark is a lack of empathy. Robert Hare, a researcher in the field describes psychopaths as "intraspecies predators[3][4] who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, sex and violence[5][6][7] to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and empathy, they take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without guilt or remorse".[8] "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony."[9]
Psychopaths are glib and superficially charming, and many psychopaths are excellent mimics of normal human emotion;[10] some psychopaths can blend in, undetected, in a variety of surroundings, including corporate environments.[11] There is neither a cure nor any effective treatment for psychopathy; there are no medications or other techniques which can instill empathy, and psychopaths who undergo traditional talk therapy only become more adept at manipulating others.[12] The consensus among researchers is that psychopathy stems from a specific neurological disorder which is biological in origin and present from birth.[10] It is estimated that one percent of the general population are psychopaths.

However I think you're much more likely bluffing and exagerating to create maximum Forum Drama. You're Psychopathic views are most likely a dramatic act.

Dont even get me starting on being a psychopath

It would be best for everyone.

If I stole money while invisible I would steal it from drug dealers who sell crack and heroin. I'd steal their drugs also so they couldn't continue to supply people with that crap. I'd take their illegal firearms and other weapons. I'd also take weapons from street gang members and organized criminals, and leave job applications for their local McDonald's on their beds.

And as someone else mentioned, I'd sneak into meetings of powerful people to find out what goes on behind closed doors...and I'd most definitely take a visit to NSA/CIA sites to see what they get to see on a daily basis. I'd also probably sit in on President Obama's daily briefings and secret meetings, although something tells me they don't always tell the President everything they know.

I'd find out which corporations are staffed with lying criminal executives who deceive customers and shareholders, collect evidence against them and deliver it to news outlets and prosecutors. I'd be the ultimate whistle blower.

As for violence, I wouldn't hurt anyone physically unless they were about to hurt a child (not talking about spankings, actual violence and abuse) or hurt someone unjustly.

I would mess with governments that does abuses in another countries.

Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot

If I stole money while invisible I would steal it from drug dealers who sell crack and heroin. I'd steal their drugs also so they couldn't continue to supply people with that crap. I'd take their illegal firearms and other weapons. I'd also take weapons from street gang members and organized criminals, and leave job applications for their local McDonald's on their beds.

And as someone else mentioned, I'd sneak into meetings of powerful people to find out what goes on behind closed doors...and I'd most definitely take a visit to NSA/CIA sites to see what they get to see on a daily basis. I'd also probably sit in on President Obama's daily briefings and secret meetings, although something tells me they don't always tell the President everything they know.

I'd find out which corporations are staffed with lying criminal executives who deceive customers and shareholders, collect evidence against them and deliver it to news outlets and prosecutors. I'd be the ultimate whistle blower.

As for violence, I wouldn't hurt anyone physically unless they were about to hurt a child (not talking about spankings, actual violence and abuse) or hurt someone unjustly.

AMEN, stealing from really evil people is justified. But the tricky part is what the defenition of Bad people?

You and I would probably agree that Heroin/Crack dealers are scum, because they make a living out of destroying people's lives. Stealing money from crack dealers would only be good if it was done purely to sabotage their evil business. So steal the money and give it to a good cause.

However some people think Muslims, Gays, Atheists, Jews, Communists and Africans are bad people and that stealing from them, enslaving them, mass-murdering them..etc is justified. That's where the danger in generally "hurting people" lies; In who does the judging between good and bad people. And they stand by their beliefs very firmly allthough they are founded on prejudice, fear, lies and ignorance.

Then again I'm really on your side. Some groups of people(HeroinDealers/Corrupt Politicians, Presidents of zillion-dollar businesses) that have no moral conscience and are destroying/polarising earth's countries/societies with war, addiction, slavery, corruption..etc really ACTIVELY need to be taken down/sabotaged by the people like us if we ever wish to live free.

here's my take on the matter.....

if anyone had a 100% conviction that they could get away with anything, they WOULD do it.

the thought of punishment is the only reason why people avoid doing something declared illegal or frowned up in his country, which makes the police such an effective force. it is unrealistic to expect people to follow their good heart and do only good deeds whilst refraining from bad deeds.

so let's consider ourselves fortunate that there is no record of a single human being attaining invisibility

Too bad invisibility is useless except for the mundane.. I'm sure anything worth doing would have a heat sensoring system nearby.

I'd want to sneak in and spy on our government, and corporations...

Originally Posted by AirRick101

here's my take on the matter.....

if anyone had a 100% conviction that they could get away with anything, they WOULD do it.

the thought of punishment is the only reason why people avoid doing something declared illegal or frowned up in his country, which makes the police such an effective force. it is unrealistic to expect people to follow their good heart and do only good deeds whilst refraining from bad deeds.

I disagree; even if I knew I would never get caught I wouldn't go around slaughtering innocent people. Senselessly inflicting pain on someone else is either something you are okay with or not...unfortunately a lot of people are okay with it, but they are psychopaths with no conscience.

So yeah, SOME people would get involved in committing harmful acts against others if they had no chance of punishment, but there are many people who instinctively know it is wrong to do so.

People that smoke crack or do heroin weren't forced into doing it.. Better off addressing the people with the substance abuse problem over the dealer.

I think the answers in this thread where people claim they would only steal from the rich and give to the poor, or only harm "bad" people is a bit misguided. No one is that altruistic.

Rather, if you were in such a situation there is no way to tell what you would be capable of. It's easy to say that you wouldn't do this or that but there is no telling how you would respond to such circumstances if you were actually facing it; not just considering a hypothetical query.

If i were in such a situation i would probably do a lot of evil things. Call me an asshole but at least i'm honest.

There are some things i wouldn't do( like beat an old lady to shreds with a baseball bat) but my threshold for evil would probably still be very high.

Some people have morals, and follow them.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Some people have morals, and follow them.

Ah, but what imposes those morals? Society. Society conditions us to act and behave a certain way, and the only thing really keeping a lot of people on the right track is a fear of consequences. Society dictates what is acceptable and what is not, and the consequences of going against the grain tend to be rather great. If your actions are extreme enough, you're looking at a basic shunning from all those you care about. Without such a fear, however, one could argue the moral barriers collapse. It would take some time to undo the work of Society, but it can (and probably will) happen at some point if a person could get away with absolutely anything. Come on...you wouldn't rob a bank and live in comfort? I find that hard to believe.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Ah, but what imposes those morals? Society. Society conditions us to act and behave a certain way, and the only thing really keeping a lot of people on the right track is a fear of consequences. Society dictates what is acceptable and what is not, and the consequences of going against the grain tend to be rather great. If your actions are extreme enough, you're looking at a basic shunning from all those you care about. Without such a fear, however, one could argue the moral barriers collapse. It would take some time to undo the work of Society, but it can (and probably will) happen at some point if a person could get away with absolutely anything. Come on...you wouldn't rob a bank and live in comfort? I find that hard to believe.

I beg to differ.
I personally experience Morality to come from within. Intuition.
You can FEEL something is wrong when you're doing it, or even only think of doing it.

Off course we are hugely manipulated by our parents, by school, by the people around us, by school, by the law..etc People allways have anbd allways will try to manipulate other people.

Usually near the troublesome teenage people start rejecting mainstream, indoctrinated morals and form their own. Too bad far too many people never quite make that development and allways go with the strongest, most intimidating common beliefs.

Our society doctrinates financial wealth/profit to be the highest value.
It feeds people greed and ego-centricness from the cradle to the grave, so this is how masses of people have been properly confused and morally misguided by psychopath politicians and religious manipulators into supporting Racism/Discrimination, War, stereotyping, suppression and prosecution of "uncommon" beliefs/practices (Such as other cultures, Entheogenesis, Homo- and Bi-sexuality, Schizophrenic/Psychotic patients..etc)

All these behaviours are oppressed, prosecuted and so systematically destroyed. Just to remain the Dominant ideology.

In precicely this way all mayor Ideologies proclaim their beliefs to be Superior and "Right" while declaring all other Ideologies as inferior and "wrong".

Many Islamic religious people call the Western Culture evil, moral-less and god-less. And many Western people call Islam barbaric, evil and intolerant.
Catholicism often thinks itself to be superior to Judaism, Protestantism and Islam, demonising Judaism, Islam and Protestantism along thwe way. And vice versa.

Similairly many Krishna people look down uppon Western culture as something pure evil, god-less and meaningless. There seems to be plenty of Hatred and Judgement to go round.

Very "Coincidentally" they(all these Ideologies in general) all claim their own Ideology to be the one and only truth.


And I say the only Truth(which equals "God" in this context) is to be found within oneself; Intuition.

Call it God, Jahweh, Addonnai, Elohim, Allah, Krishna or Santa Klaus.... But if you seek this higher state of being, seek it within yourself.

If, for instance, I am tempted to steal from a friend my Intuition will attack me with incredible force: I'd be wayed down with feelings of guilt, shame and general uncomfortability. For merely considering it. If, rather than eating food alone in other people's presence, I share my food with someone this gives me a very warm, joyfull feeling. This is the moral Guidance so many call "God".

So if this is Intuitive guidance system is built in into my mind naturally, telling me right from wrong, then why on Earth would I need any book or preacher(or Society moral for that matter) to tell me right from wrong?

Our own Morality is due to societal influences with some minor input from ourselves.

For most people, their intuition only informs their morality somewhat.

Originally Posted by SKA

You can FEEL something is wrong when you're doing it, or even only think of doing it.

It doesn't change the fact that our perceptions of right and wrong are largely informed by the what our collective society views as thus.

In our societies, we are conditioned to think what is wrong and what is right based on what other people think is so.

For some isolated jungle tribes in Papua New Guinea it is or once was (up to 1950) a common practice to eat the brains of the deceased, or to consume part or all of their corpse. This was their way of paying their respects to the departed strangely enough.

To them they don't think twice about it. It's a part of their societies culture and they probably see it as a way of paying homage to the deceased.

If someone from say New Jersey was to sit down with them and be invited to tear of a piece of the departeds' ear; they would probably be quite disgusted and think that was extremely disrespectful. But to a Papua New guinean it would be a part of the mourning process and a way to celebrate the deceased life.

The reason a person from the states would have such a contrary position to a papua new guinean is purely societal. We are conditioned to believe this or that is right or appropriate or inappropriate for a given situation from societies wider common values.

Sure a persons intuition can influence their morality to an extent, but for the most part, your morality is derived from the common values of the wider society that you inhabit.

So to go back to what you were saying. If i was eating or thinking of eating my dead mother's corpse, i would have a nagging feeling in my head that "this is not fucken right, this is fucken disrespectful and disgusting" but a Papua New Guinean from a certain part of the Island would view it as not only appropriate but an essential part of the grieving process.

Sorry for the crappy analogy, but that's all i could come up with.

"Edit"

To conclude. Morality is not a choice for the most part. It is rather something inherited from the society in which you are raised.

Originally Posted by Soros

Our own Morality is due to societal influences with some minor input from ourselves.

For most people, their intuition only informs their morality somewhat.



It doesn't change the fact that our perceptions of right and wrong are largely informed by the what our collective society views as thus.

In our societies, we are conditioned to think what is wrong and what is right based on what other people think is so.

For some isolated jungle tribes in Papua New Guinea it is or once was (up to 1950) a common practice to eat the brains of the deceased, or to consume part or all of their corpse. This was their way of paying their respects to the departed strangely enough.

To them they don't think twice about it. It's a part of their societies culture and they probably see it as a way of paying homage to the deceased.

If someone from say New Jersey was to sit down with them and be invited to tear of a piece of the departeds' ear; they would probably be quite disgusted and think that was extremely disrespectful. But to a Papua New guinean it would be a part of the mourning process and a way to celebrate the deceased life.

The reason a person from the states would have such a contrary position to a papua new guinean is purely societal. We are conditioned to believe this or that is right or appropriate or inappropriate for a given situation from societies wider common values.

Sure a persons intuition can influence their morality to an extent, but for the most part, your morality is derived from the common values of the wider society that you inhabit.

So to go back to what you were saying. If i was eating or thinking of eating my dead mother's corpse, i would have a nagging feeling in my head that "this is not fucken right, this is fucken disrespectful and disgusting" but a Papua New Guinean from a certain part of the Island would view it as not only appropriate but an essential part of the grieving process.

Sorry for the crappy analogy, but that's all i could come up with.

"Edit"

To conclude. Morality is not a choice for the most part. It is rather something inherited from the society in which you are raised.

^All of that. If you're raised to be a serial killer (hey, it could happen), then you would find killing to be perfectly moral. Morals don't really come from within, imho. The brain is not automatically wired to know the differences between "right" and "wrong." These two terms are highly ambiguous, and vary widely between cultures. Morals are not instinctive.

Also, as an atheist, I don't buy the "soul" or "higher power" arguments.

You know, why not harm people we classify as "bad" instead of the innocent?? I'd probably do that, know that I think about it. But I would also do things that are illegal but not 'harmful'. I most likely wouldn't kill innocent people but I might peek up a chikk's skirt or something.

Originally Posted by TheLucid

But I would also do things that are illegal but not 'harmful'. I most likely wouldn't kill innocent people but I might peek up a chikk's skirt or something.

You cannot possibly know how you would react in such a situation where you would find your self freed from the consequences of your actions.

Consider this quote:

He who believes he knows the ending of things before they begin is either a very wise person or an idiot. Regardless, he is unhappy for he hast drove a knife into the heart of wonder. -Osten Ard


How do you know you would limit yourself to just "peaking up her skirt" until you are actually invisible and in that actual situation?

Perhaps the knowledge that you would not incur consequences would seem very liberating and you would perhaps do more than just "peek".

Your conscious might object, but you could at the same time have lowered inhibitions due to the knowledge that you would have no consequences.

By the way, this is not a judgement on your character. Rather it is just speculation on human nature.

How much of our "moral" behavior is our own conscious at work? And how much is our subconscious knowing that society would view these behaviors with disgust, and the threat of incarceration? (just putting this out there)

Originally Posted by Mario92

Also, as an atheist, I don't buy the "soul" or "higher power" arguments.

I couldn't agree more. But let us assume that there is a "higher power",if only for the sake of argument.

Why would he care about the conduct of those of us on earth anymore than a bee keeper or owner of an ant colony would care about the conduct of their specimens?

Certainly if such a being existed, we would be nothing more than ants to him.

Originally Posted by Soros

I couldn't agree more. But let us assume that there is a "higher power" if only for the sake of argument.

Why would he care about the conduct of those of us on earth anymore than a bee keeper or owner of an ant colony would care about the conduct of their specimens?

Certainly if such a being existed, we would be nothing more than ants to him.

Indeed. What I was referring to was the argument that morality stems from a higher power. I don't buy this, for exactly the reason you just mentioned, plus my aforestated atheism.

Originally Posted by Soros

You cannot possibly know how you would react in such a situation where you would find your self freed from the consequences of your actions.

Yeah you can, it's called lucid dreaming.



It seems to me that the people insisting that EVERYONE would end up doing evil deeds are only saying that because they feel bad about the fact that they know they themselves would do evil things if they could do so unpunished.

I agree with SKA's assessment about morality: it begins from a foundation of individual intuition. That basically makes morality a subjective phenomenon, but everyone claiming that all morality is imposed on individuals by society are looking only at institutionalized morality and ignoring that it comes from an intuitive basis.

When I was a child, I recall accidentally stepping on a bird egg while playing outside. My older sister just laughed but I started crying, extremely upset that I had just "killed" what would have been a baby bird.

At that point, I had never attended church and wasn't yet indoctrinated into any kind of institutionalized morality. I just felt it to be wrong. And clearly my elders at the time did not feel the same horror as I did, and according to the "morality comes from society" model I should have first looked to their reactions and then adopted them as my own.

And yet I didn't.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Ah, but what imposes those morals? Society. Society conditions us to act and behave a certain way, and the only thing really keeping a lot of people on the right track is a fear of consequences. Society dictates what is acceptable and what is not, and the consequences of going against the grain tend to be rather great. If your actions are extreme enough, you're looking at a basic shunning from all those you care about. Without such a fear, however, one could argue the moral barriers collapse. It would take some time to undo the work of Society, but it can (and probably will) happen at some point if a person could get away with absolutely anything. Come on...you wouldn't rob a bank and live in comfort? I find that hard to believe.

No I wouldn't. I find money on the ground in peoples wallets and return them.

Morals come from far more places than just society. Just because some of society relies on a fear of consequences, I don't. We all know how people come to moral standings, from their parents first and foremost, and others.. But we aren't all living in fear of consequences, my morals are based on whether or not they harm someone. I smoke marijuana but refuse to steal.. Both are illegal, but one is harming someone else... Not everyone is so sad and pitiful as you describe.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

No I wouldn't. I find money on the ground in peoples wallets and return them.

Morals come from far more places than just society. Just because some of society relies on a fear of consequences, I don't. We all know how people come to moral standings, from their parents first and foremost, and others.. But we aren't all living in fear of consequences, my morals are based on whether or not they harm someone. I smoke marijuana but refuse to steal.. Both are illegal, but one is harming someone else... Not everyone is so sad and pitiful as you describe.

But it is not that way for everyone, my friend. We all have different minds and states of consciousness, we all have different thoughts and views on things

Originally Posted by DeathCell

No I wouldn't. I find money on the ground in peoples wallets and return them.

Morals come from far more places than just society. Just because some of society relies on a fear of consequences, I don't. We all know how people come to moral standings, from their parents first and foremost, and others.. But we aren't all living in fear of consequences, my morals are based on whether or not they harm someone. I smoke marijuana but refuse to steal.. Both are illegal, but one is harming someone else... Not everyone is so sad and pitiful as you describe.

You do that because you think it is the right thing to do. What instills those beliefs? Yeah, society. If you grew up in the jungle, stealing would probably come naturally.

Originally Posted by Captain Sleepalot

Yeah you can, it's called lucid dreaming.



It seems to me that the people insisting that EVERYONE would end up doing evil deeds are only saying that because they feel bad about the fact that they know they themselves would do evil things if they could do so unpunished.

I agree with SKA's assessment about morality: it begins from a foundation of individual intuition. That basically makes morality a subjective phenomenon, but everyone claiming that all morality is imposed on individuals by society are looking only at institutionalized morality and ignoring that it comes from an intuitive basis.

Morality is hugely influenced from society and the values of who you grow up with. I have friends who grew up on reserves and were taught to steal and those who grew up under the influence of delinquent brothers and basically, their morals reflect their core influences.

Your morals and values are a reflection of societies overall values at the end of the day. I'm not denying the role of intuition on some level but what i am saying is your core values come from your surrounding environment.

The foundation for what your values are come from the values of society. It's not just something that you know "is right", it's what society has imprinted on you.

After all, it's no coincidence that if you travel to different regions and countries that you will find people in these places have similar values to each other.

For morals to be the sole product of you and only you, you would have to eliminate the variable of societal influences and explain to me exactly why a child is not influenced by societal values at all but comes up with their own.

Consider the fact that a child raised in a christian environment will grow up believing in christ, a muslim in allah etc. Religions carry with them a set of moral teachings among other things. If a person can latch onto a religion which is basically a set of moral teachings among other things so easily, why can they not latch onto a set of moral beliefs just as easily?

How is the role of forming your own moral beliefs independent from societies influences ?

Originally Posted by Mario92

You do that because you think it is the right thing to do. What instills those beliefs? Yeah, society. If you grew up in the jungle, stealing would probably come naturally.

This is a blanket statement with nothing to back it up.... I do it because I understand that harming others is wrong, I learned that from my parents if anyone not society... The society I grew up in is less than pure...

Many people live in the "jungle" and don't steal.

I don't know why people seem to think society is the main cause of our morals, when it's only a secondary source compared to your parentals.. And we must not forget no matter what morals we acquired from our parents, or from society.. many people break away from what would be expected for their life.. Otherwise no one would ever convert to other religions, no one would murder except those who were never taught that killing is wrong, yet I believe some serial killers or murderers have come from what could be viewed as a healthier moral standpoint.