Originally posted by Stevehattan

Universal Mind, causality is unavoidable, but there are possible ways to get around ordinary cause and effect events. First off, if time is going backwards (or sometimes even forwards, as with the \"borrowed\" virtual particles described by bradybaker), events can come before causes as long as the cause is fulfilled. If time isn't moving, or doesn't exist yet, it must be possible that a cause and effect might happen simultaniously, creating a time loop that would lead to existance.
WOES!!! That's fascinating! I'll ponder on that for a while. But what causes cause and effect to happen simultaneously? It looks like no matter how good an answer is, the response can ALWAYS be, "Then what causes that?" I was thinking about this really hard last night, and I came to the conclusion that causes and causation are forms of existence, so existence precedes causes and causation. Therefore, existence does not need a cause. The existence of existence is the one thing that absolutely must "be." But what causes that to be the case? I think it might have something to do with the fact that no matter how things "are," the given fact is that they "are." If nothing "is," then that is how it "is." "Is" is unavoidable, no matter how things "are." No matter what the state of things, the state of things exists. If there were no state of things (hypothetically, not realistically), then that would be the state of things, so the state of things exists automatically. The state of things is therefore part of existence, so there must be existence. What causes this? It doesn't have to have a cause. It is automatic. So why aren't bizarre events constantly happening without cause? Excuse me while I go get fitted for a straight jacket. Have a good weekend.