Thread: E=DV squared

Originally posted by Howetzer
Basically E=MC2 means that energy and mass are the same thing and there is a conversion factor between the two.
And from what I understand energy cannot be destroyed, just transformed into another form of matter.
And since light is made up of discrete particle (Photons) rather than a continuous wave, it would be also considered some form of matter. Which means there is a realtionship between time, space, mass & energy.

Actually, it's both at the same time. That's one of those things that's kind of hard to get your mind around, but it is literally both at the same time. This aspect of quantum mechanics is called "wave particle duality". You're right about conservation of massenergy (yeah, that's the scientific name for it-- creative, huh?). The amount of massenergy in the universe is fixed, and cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. However, to say that brainwaves are matter is a a stretch. Photons are actually massless particles as far as we've been able to tell, so if you want to talk about the electromagnetic energy created by the brain in terms of particles, they don't have mass. Einstein's famous E=mc^2 formula is usually somewhat misunderstood. The purest example of the conversion between mass and energy that I can think of is the creation and destruction of particle/anti-particle pairs. When matter and anti-matter come into contact, it basically goes *poof* and is transformed into radiation energy equal to the sum of the masses of the particles times the speed of light in a vacuum squared.

I know very little about astral projection or OBE (which seem like the same thing from what I’ve read on the forums) and am quite skeptical of the idea anyway, but do know a bit about science, so I'm going to leave it at that. Hopefully that little explanation made sense. If not, let me know.

Dude howetzer I love you man for just trying to make sense of this stuff, most people don't bother or come up with really lame excuses. Fear not dude, I thought of these things quite a bit ago and have zee answers.

As for your first area of questioning, biologists are not scientists, they suppress so much science it's not funny... here's a book suggestion for you for this topic..
"The Body Electric" by Baker

Now for your second, GOOD MAN for trying to find out a scientific exlpanation for stuff like astral projection and telepathy or other mind powers. There is basically one focal point you need to understand which makes all this possible, how can there be action at a distance? Simple, that is impossible, the force has to be communicated through some type of medium. What is that medium you say? The Ether/Aether. Want to know about the Ether/Aether? Read up on 19th century PRE-EINSTEIN physics, that's all they talk about. If you really get into this you will come to hate Einstein as I do, he killed ether/aether physics.

Nice discussion Peregrinus & Prometheus

Peregrinus, Thanks for the information.
Now as far as them both exicisting at the same time. I will have to let this one ponder in my brain for or if it to sink in..?.?
How could there be a massless partical? If it consists of particals it would inturn contain mass, no?
Micro waves, gamma waves, radio waves and those that I had previously mentioned. What do those consist of? Do they not all follow the laws of physics?
Also E=Mc2</span> is a linear measurement like feet to inches but instead mass to energy. Is this where the anti matter effect comes into play? And is that differant than dark matter?

<span style="color:red">Prometheus,

I will check out "The Body Electric".
As far as the medium goes. Couldn't the wave itself be the medium? For which to carry information.
And action at a distance. If light travels at 182,000 miles a second and images are strored in light ( or aren't they) then this would make it possible for viewing at a distance.
To say you were out far enough where a ray of light has not yet gotten to. Would this not hold a disance viewnig?
Once again. I am talking only out of general common sense. I am trying to apply it to methods I don't come close to understanding.
So I am not rebuking, your answers just asking more questions.

Originally posted by Howetzer
Now as far as them both exicisting at the same time. I will have to let this one ponder in my brain for or if it to sink in..?.?
How could there be a massless partical? If it consists of particals it would inturn contain mass, no?
Micro waves, gamma waves, radio waves and those that I had previously mentioned. What do those consist of? Do they not all follow the laws of physics?
Also E=Mc2 is a linear measurement like feet to inches but instead mass to energy. Is this where the anti matter effect comes into play? And is that differant than dark matter?

The energy of a photon is given by the equation E=h*f , where h is Plank's constant and f is the frequency of the EM energy. Think of it relativistically. If photons have mass, then if they travel through a medium (say, a nebula or earth's atmosphere) and consequently slow down, it would take an infinite amount of energy to re-accelerate them back to c once they pass through the medium and back into a vacuum. So when you have particle/anti-particle annihilation, the equation looks like:
E = h*f = m*c^2, where m is the combined mass of the particle and anti-particle
solving for the frequency of the radiation produced by the annihilation yields:
f = (m*c^2)/h

Dark matter and anti-matter are definitely different. Follow the links for some good info, and let me know if those sites leave anything out. I'll do my best to explain what I can (and refer you to more knowledgeable sources than I if I can't).

Originally posted by Prometheus
There is basically one focal point you need to understand which makes all this possible, how can there be action at a distance? Simple, that is impossible, the force has to be communicated through some type of medium. What is that medium you say? The Ether/Aether. Want to know about the Ether/Aether? Read up on 19th century PRE-EINSTEIN physics, that's all they talk about. If you really get into this you will come to hate Einstein as I do, he killed ether/aether physics.

First, yes there can be action at a distance. Check out quantum entanglement, or, as Einstein put it, "spooky action at a distance". (The link I gave is pretty scientifically dense, so if you want something a bit easier to read, I suggest you google it.) Quantum entanglement is the property that allows for quantum teleportation . And second, there is no aether, man. It's an antiquated and patently false idea, conclusively demonstrated as such by the Michelson-Morley experiment and the fact that our space travel and satellite technology actually works accurately. So don't hate on Einstein because he advanced science and our understanding of physical reality at the expense of the “world floating through low-viscosity jello” model.

Peregrinus
E = h*f = m*c^2, - uuhhh ya that is what I waas going to say.
Those equations are far above my intelect. but thanks for the information links. That should keep me occupied for.....? another 32 years.

Know one was supppose to actually argue my theory. It would have been easier if everyone just said ya! That could be how it works

I will have to revise my theory. Based on senseless banter.

Do you have any theories? "Just pretend you believe in astral projection or remote viewing. throw some wild idea out there.

Howetzer,

Alright, this is going to be long, so just remember—you asked for it

Well, first off, if OBE and/or remote viewing are real, I don’t think that there is a way to tell the difference between the two on an objective or scientific level. Phenomenologically, both are simply the anomalous acquisition of information. I’m not well read on any research that may (or may not) have been conducted in these areas, but if I were to test for either of these phenomena, my experiment would basically be to “lock” the astral projection or remote viewing subject/purported practitioner in a soundproof, windowless room and ask them to describe to me an object placed in an adjacent room about which they can know or ascertain nothing through the normal 5 senses.

Now, if the subject says they are going to use astral projection to see the object, what would be a successful outcome? Obviously, an accurate description of the object. And if they were using remote viewing? It would be the same thing. The only difference between the two that I’ve been able to ascertain is how the subject perceives during the practice of either technique. If they say they’re astral projecting, they perceive themselves floating or flying around in some sort of ethereal body. If they claim to use remote viewing, they perceive the information in the form of images, sounds, smells, textures, and tastes while remaining aware of and perceiving themselves to be “in” their physical body. So it seems to me that if this anomalous acquisition of data is possible, the mechanism is likely the same for all seemingly separate phenomena (remote viewing, astral projection, OBE, etc), and the apparent difference among them is psychological—a difference in the way the minds of the subjects choose to interpret the acquisition process and the data received.

As for the mechanism itself, it would be pure speculation. I did a couple of internet searches for info on remote viewing and astral projection and it seems that remote viewing is the better studied of the two (although neither is scientifically well studied or documented—period), so I’ll confine myself to talk about RV. From what I’ve read, those who claim to have successfully performed RV claim to have done so repeatedly for targets halfway around the world. If such claims are accurate, then the mechanism for RV cannot be through the propagation of electromagnetic waves. In weak gravitational fields (such as the earth), EM radiation propagates to a good approximation in a straight line. Since the surface of the earth curves, in all except ideal atmospheric conditions (those that allow for the bouncing of EM waves from the atmosphere back toward the surface of the earth), EM waves will travel near the surface of the earth only for a short distance before their straight-line path takes them into space.

The only analogy that I can think of that might apply to such phenomena (if they are real) comes from dreaming and strays decidedly from physics into philosophy. While in a non-lucid dream, we accept the dream world around us as real and objective, outside and independent of ourselves. This is exactly how most people perceive waking reality. However, upon becoming lucid, we understand that our surroundings, which moments before seemed distant and distinct, are in fact manifestations of our own minds. We walk across a dream room, covering what we perceive to be several meters, but understand that there is no such thing as space or separation in dreams—such things are merely artifacts of perception—and everything we perceive in dreams is a perception of ourselves.

If such an analogy can be extended into the waking world (and although this is mere speculation, the fact that we know waking reality only through perception makes such an extension somewhat less of a philosophical stretch) the anomalous acquisition of data would require no mechanism of physical propagation-- just as knowing which dream character is about to walk through a door and into a dream room requires no mechanism of propagation because everything in the dream is a product of the dreamer’s mind and all knowledge thereof is consequently accessible to the dreamer by virtue of he or she being the source of and inseparable from all aspects of the dream.

Alright, that was one long-winded response composed almost entirely of personal speculation, but when you ask a scientist to feign a belief in a subject for the sake of discussion, speculation amended with lengthy qualifications is what you’ll get.

Oh, and for the record, that E = h*f = m*c^2 equations is simply a statement of conservation of energy. The energy of the radiation must be equal to the energy of the particle/antiparticle pair. Don’t be so hard on yourself—it’s not above your level at all, you’ve just never been trained in it.

Although lenghty, I am still glad I asked.

Originally posted by Peregrinus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Peregrinus)</div>

EM radiation propagates to a good approximation in a straight line. Since the surface of the earth curves, in all except ideal atmospheric conditions (those that allow for the bouncing of EM waves from the atmosphere back toward the surface of the earth), EM waves will travel near the surface of the earth only for a short distance before their straight-line path takes them into space. [/b]

Rather than EM waves, what of frequency? Since brain waves are Low in frequency and large in amplitude. Can AM or FM wavesplay a role in this? More so AM because I believe they do follow the curviture of the earth.
What realm does a brain wave or sinusoidal wave fall under?

<!--QuoteBegin-Peregrinus
Don’t be so hard on yourself—it’s not above your level at all, you’ve just never been trained in it.

Thanks
I have always been a scientific thinker. That is one reason I believe (or should I say don't believe) in astral projection and shared dreaming. But since I have learned to lucid dream I try not to close any doors. For I felt that lucid dreaming was BS!
But to me LDs are just a function of the body like that of any other. Just much less understood and even moreover well known.

Radio waves and brain waves are electromagnetic (EM) waves. They represent regions of the EM spectrum. EM waves are categorized based on their frequency, which in turn is related to the energy of the waves (remember that E = h*f equation?). Gamma rays are of higher frequencies than x-rays which have higher frequencies than UV, visible light, microwaves, and finally radio waves (which have the lowest frequency and consequently the lowest energy). The amplitude of a wave is a measure of its intensity, so since brain waves have a low intensity, they also have a low amplitude.

AM and FM stand for "amplitude modulation" and "frequency modulation" (you might have already known that), which just describes how the information (for voice, music, etc) is encoded. AM and FM also occupy different regions of the spectrum. FM operates in the megahertz (MHz, 1,000,000 Hz) range while AM operates in the tens and hundreds of kilohertz (kHz, 10,000 - 100,000 Hz) range. As far as distance of propagation is concerned, for HAM radio bands (~2 - 55 MHz), ground wave propagation never really exceeds 25 miles (this is mainly because of attenuation due to obstacles on earth's surface rather than a divergence from the surface toward space), but sky waves can have a practically world-wide skip distance under ideal sunspot activity.

EM waves and brain waves are sinusoidal (which is basically just another word for “periodic,” meaning that it repeats itself after a certain distance, namely the wavelength).

Originally posted by Howetzer
That is one reason I believe (or should I say don't believe) in astral projection and shared dreaming.

So you do believe or you don't believe or you're still up in the air?

... I try not to close any doors.[/b]

Ditto. Unless it's patently false and ridiculous, like, for instance, the notion that the aether exists.
Ok, sorry, couldn't help myself.

Thanks again for some more insightful links!

Howetzer wrote:

Originally posted by Peregrinus
So you do believe or you don't believe or you're still up in the air?

That was a oxymoronic statement.

As I said earlier, I won't discount it all together, however at this point my belief against its odds are greater than that of it being possible.

shared lucids

I think what you are saying runs along the same lines that placebo & I were talking about in the above post.

Originally posted by Peregrinus

Well, first off, if OBE and/or remote viewing are real, I don’t think that there is a way to tell the difference between the two on an objective or scientific level. Phenomenologically, both are simply the anomalous acquisition of information. I’m not well read on any research that may (or may not) have been conducted in these areas, but if I were to test for either of these phenomena, my experiment would basically be to “lock” the astral projection or remote viewing subject/purported practitioner in a soundproof, windowless room and ask them to describe to me an object placed in an adjacent room about which they can know or ascertain nothing through the normal 5 senses.

Originally posted by Howetzer
shared lucids

I think what you are saying runs along the same lines that placebo & I were talking about in the above post.

Yeah, sound like it. I posted in that topic what I think might be a decent experimental design, considering our resources. It's basically what you and Placebo were talking about, just fleshed out a bit. If I left something out or got it wrong, or you can think of something to add, please do. I'm not very familiar with all of the people on the forums and how they interact, so my design may or may not be feasible.

First just to break the ice. Have you guy heard this one.
What is the difference between a mechanic and a quantum physics mechanic?
Answer- the mechanic has to open the garage door to get his car in or out.
Lol
Observation effect
On the one hand the quantum theory of light cannot be considered satisfactory since it defines the energy of a light particle (photon) by the equation E=hf containing the frequency f. Now a purely particle theory contains nothing that enables us to define a frequency; for this reason alone, therefore, we are compelled, in the case of light, to introduce the idea of a particle and that of frequency simultaneously. On the other hand, determination of the stable motion of electrons in the atom introduces integers, and up to this point the only phenomena involving integers in physics were those of interference and of normal modes of vibration. This fact suggested to me the idea that electrons too could not be considered simply as particles, but that frequency (wave properties) must be assigned to them also.
It depends on what experiment you use. Called the observation effect. If you look at the results with one testing method a thing is a partial with another its a wave. So it all depends on how you observe it.

I didn't know so many other people think so much in their head about this stuff. I'm not alone!!

I'm not sure exactly what answer you are looking for, Howetzer.

Energy is to a very subtle degree, matter. What makes it that way, is not certain. Matter is energy frozen into a point in the physical world.

I believe there is no smallest building block. We thought the atom was the smallest building particle, but it seems to have plenty of other portions of mass in it. And the string theory is another new idea that compensates for our uncertainty of it, perhaps. So, if there is no smallest piece of mass or energy, (this will sound "out there") that would imply there is an essence of infinity in all things. "Building Block" may as well be an illusion, or its euphemism, an idea created to make energy/matter easier to manipulate and understand our world. Because of this, there is no barrier to where each "building block" can be. This is a potential explaination for matter existing yet not being able to pinpoint it's description and location in quantam levels. At least I myself can see how this may tie in with astral projection being a real phenomenon that intersects with the physical world.

It sounds dense, but when you organize it, it's really not.

Originally posted by AirRick101
I didn't know so many other people think so much in their head about this stuff. I'm not alone!!

Yes. So true. And with each theory arises even more questions.
It really is hard to say any thoery is out there, if you think about it.

What may sound popostorous today may be found sound tommorow.

Originally posted by AirRick101
I didn't know so many other people think so much in their head about this stuff. *I'm not alone!!
So, if there is no smallest piece of mass or energy, (this will sound \"out there\") that would imply there is an essence of infinity in all things. *\"Building Block\" may as well be an illusion, or its euphemism, an idea created to make energy/matter easier to manipulate and understand our world.

]

Yea AirRick101 I guess that leaves two good theories of energy and matter.
You know the old saying” If you cut something in half then in half again and again, when do you come to the smallest particle?" Or if you go to touch something 1 foot away soon you’ll be 6 inches then 3, then billionths and so on so really you never get there. What was the smallest distance before contact? That has always led me to believe that the world as we think it is, isn’t there at all. So it would have to either be infinite or none existent. I always thought we might just be a thought in Gods head. That would solve the riddle of why you can’t cut something to the smallest particle. But I'm incline to side with your infinite theory.

This is one of the best topics I've found so far... thanks for pointing me in the right direction Howetzer



This is a working model of the universe that you guys might find VERY interesting if you don't know about it already....

http://fusionanomaly.net/holographicuniverse.html

Originally posted by onlysleeping
This is one of the best topics I've found so far... thanks for pointing me in the right direction Howetzer *
This is a working model of the universe that you guys might find VERY interesting if you don't know about it already....

http://fusionanomaly.net/holographicuniverse.html

Thanks for the link! I wish I had learned to Photo read. A previous member, UMJ had pointed me to several sources to learn the technique.
I just have so much to read. I have 9 pages bookmarked, 15 issues of scientific american backed up, readers digest and the list goes on. I want to go on a retreat for two weeks with just me my wife and all my books...& links.

Since a lot of this topic is subjective feel free to throw in your own thoughts. I know it kind of jumps all over a bit.
I have a sub post from this one called E=Dv revised as well.

Howetzer

Everyone, just remember one thing. Scientists are the same people who, weeks before landing on the moon, said it was "utter moonshine."

For help understanding the wave/particle functions and their... abnormalities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

Very crazy awesome to see and understand.

Originally Posted by What??Me??

Everyone, just remember one thing. Scientists are the same people who, weeks before landing on the moon, said it was "utter moonshine."

they're also the people who planned and created the moon landing mission -.-

ITT: We bump three year old threads.

Originally Posted by Peregrinus

Actually, it's both at the same time. That's one of those things that's kind of hard to get your mind around, but it is literally both at the same time. This aspect of quantum mechanics is called "wave particle duality". You're right about conservation of massenergy (yeah, that's the scientific name for it-- creative, huh?). The amount of massenergy in the universe is fixed, and cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. However, to say that brainwaves are matter is a a stretch. Photons are actually massless particles as far as we've been able to tell, so if you want to talk about the electromagnetic energy created by the brain in terms of particles, they don't have mass. Einstein's famous E=mc^2 formula is usually somewhat misunderstood. The purest example of the conversion between mass and energy that I can think of is the creation and destruction of particle/anti-particle pairs. When matter and anti-matter come into contact, it basically goes *poof* and is transformed into radiation energy equal to the sum of the masses of the particles times the speed of light in a vacuum squared.

I know very little about astral projection or OBE (which seem like the same thing from what I’ve read on the forums) and am quite skeptical of the idea anyway, but do know a bit about science, so I'm going to leave it at that. Hopefully that little explanation made sense. If not, let me know.

Yes, the thing about wave particle duality is that it's said to be a wave unobservered, but then if observered by an observer, it's traits become of that of a particle. Then this trail roots to explanations such as the law of attraction and so on.....

Originally Posted by AirRick101

I didn't know so many other people think so much in their head about this stuff. I'm not alone!!

I'm not sure exactly what answer you are looking for, Howetzer.

Energy is to a very subtle degree, matter. What makes it that way, is not certain. Matter is energy frozen into a point in the physical world.

I believe there is no smallest building block. We thought the atom was the smallest building particle, but it seems to have plenty of other portions of mass in it. And the string theory is another new idea that compensates for our uncertainty of it, perhaps. So, if there is no smallest piece of mass or energy, (this will sound "out there") that would imply there is an essence of infinity in all things. "Building Block" may as well be an illusion, or its euphemism, an idea created to make energy/matter easier to manipulate and understand our world. Because of this, there is no barrier to where each "building block" can be. This is a potential explaination for matter existing yet not being able to pinpoint it's description and location in quantam levels. At least I myself can see how this may tie in with astral projection being a real phenomenon that intersects with the physical world.

It sounds dense, but when you organize it, it's really not.

Since we have no clue of what is the smallest bit of matter(whatever is "out there"), what if there were giants so huge for us to even compensate as WE were part of "atoms" (The center of the galaxy) or however this universe functions, as surely quarks aren't the smallest and surely we and the planets aren't the biggest, there could be small little beings that are a trillion trillion trillion times smaller then an atom, or our galaxy as a part of some piece of a rock that(my brain is tired so I'll go on with gibberish that actually makes sense) some giant being kids throw at some old giant beings house. Who knows

Word of notice....atoms are just human speculations...I'm sure most people here know..