Thread: Consensus Reality

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Really, one of the main reasons why many of your posts rub me the wrong way is because you speak in assertions without offering any reason why the things you say are true, as if you posess some knowledge that is hidden to the rest of us. You are talking about The Absolute as if it is something that you have intimate knowledge of. If that is the case, then fine but it doesn't really mean much in terms of a discussion. If you are an enlightened being then you should be able to explain The Absolute in a way that I can understand and accept its existence. If you don't have hidden knowledge, then what exactly is it beyond your beliefs that convince you it exists and is knowable?

Reading back over this post, it sounds sort of hostile but that wasn't intended so please don't take it that way, since I can't think of any other way to word what I want to say.

I'm not offended, but for me to "offer" a reason to believe what I have said is to mistake that it is an intellectual conclusion. I.e. That I have arrived at the conclusions through reason and proof. I will say that I have no hidden knowledge that has some sort of implied specialness. What I'm saying is more like wisdom (it really is nothing original on my part) rather than trying to prove something. Despite this, it is a spiritual understanding that is rendered into intellectual terms. If you still don't see reason to believe something, perhaps it is more than that?

Also, I am no enlightened being and there is nothing I say that is really that grandiose that nobody else can understand it. It may seem that way because of the innate authority of the concepts in and of themselves. What convinces me of such a reality, is seeing this for myself. It's generally rock solid in terms of concepts, but more importantly that it is facilitating an experiential awareness.

Back to address the topic: The fundamental premise is that all reality is contextualized in subjectivity. Do you see no reason to believe this?

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

However, as you so eloquently pointed out, consciousness can know Reality. How? Why?

This is THE mystery.

To understand this we will first have to understand and agree on what we mean by 'consciousness' and 'mind'.

I love how all the shadewinks wink at the same time!

lol.. I'm glad you get the gist of it.

Well traditionally (throughout history/spirituality) it seems that consciousness encompasses all reality in its manifest expression, as the essence of life or cosmic intelligence. The knower and the known are the one identity, which you may already be alluding to! Consciosuness is the substrate of energy out of which awareness arises. The mind is the mechanism that perceives duality; thinks in terms of concepts and ideas. I'm pretty sure No-mind is much like consciousness, if you've heard of that term.

Great thread!!

I don't have any great thoughts to throw out here, but just an analogy or two - well, and my own opinion on the matter:

I think there definitely is a concrete reality, and that for the most part we can all comprehend it and agree on it... but there are parts of it that are still hidden from us due to the limitations of our senses (even when amplified by scientific apparatus) and our understanding, and the fact that much of what we perceive is strongly influenced by our individual backgrounds/ beliefs etc.

Ok, now the analogies:

Does a dog perceive the world the same way we do? Their eyesight is pretty poor, but their sense of smell is incredibly sensitive, and in fact it's known canines have an area of the brain that builds a "smell picture" of their surroundings that's at least as powerful and complex as the "sight picture" our minds create from the data collected by our eyes. One major difference... vision is one-directional... you don't see all around your head, and you can't see things that are behind other things. Smell is different... a dog can smell things all the way around, and can tell exactly where the scents are coming from.

How would a dog's concept of your yard differ from your own? To you it's mostly a visual experience, though spiced up with smells (faint... the dog laughs at your puny olfactory abilities!), sounds and maybe the feel of the breeze on your skin etc. To the dog it's a vivid maze of trails made by all kinds of tiny animals you can't see... and he even is aware of the ones that passed by a while ago - not at all existing in your present image of the yard.

Thinking about this helps to understand to what extent perception affects our idea of 'reality'. I think for the most part there's a lot of overlap in human/ canine perception... he can smell the pile of dog crap you just stepped in, and you both know what it is... so the two worlds aren't totally different... it's mainly just a different perspective, which can reveal very different aspects of the world. There are things the dog is very strongly aware of that totally escape your notice, and vice verse.

Some people seem to believe that if a tree falls and there's nobody to hear it that it really doesn't make a sound. I guess it depends on what you mean by sound. I'd say it definitely vibrates the air at a frequency that a human ear would translate into the sound of a tree falling... whether or not there's an ear there! So you could get all nit-picky and say "But it isn't really a SOUND... it's just vibrations!". True, but that's all sound is, vibrations picked up by an eardrum and fed to the brain to be processed. So saying it doesn't make a sound to me is just semantics.

Originally Posted by really

Well traditionally (throughout history/spirituality) it seems that consciousness encompasses all reality in its manifest expression, as the essence of life or cosmic intelligence. The knower and the known are the one identity, which you may already be alluding to! Consciosuness is the substrate of energy out of which awareness arises. The mind is the mechanism that perceives duality; thinks in terms of concepts and ideas. I'm pretty sure No-mind is much like consciousness, if you've heard of that term.

Nice try! But not good enough for me! (They should have a zen master smiley that hits the other smiley with a stick) I know that this is the trickiest and slipperiest of subject to speak of. Or even think about or comprehend. Because it is of the No-mind! You have to have a No-mind to no-think about it in order to no-understand it and to be it.

You say that consciousness encompasses all reality, why? how? That would not convince a materialist who thinks that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain.
I am alluding that the knower and the known are one, but what does that mean? Does that make sense? Someone might think that you are just saying that because you heard it said without understanding it. What is your understanding of that statement?
And you say that consciousness is the substrate of energy out of which awareness arises. I have followed you up until this statement. What is the difference between consciousness and awareness? And, is consciousness an energy? If so does it have a wave frequency that can be measured? What the source of this energy? Can energy be a substrate?
This statement is good: "The mind is the mechanism that perceives duality; thinks in terms of concepts and ideas". But, go on... What is the mind made of? Where is it?

Only if we are able able to see past individual reality and consensus reality and all relative realities and know an absolute reality firsthand would we be able to understand consensus 'reality' objectively
And you say that it is possible with consciousness? How to realize the No-mind?

Dannon Oneironaut, I PM'd you. My post got a bit long and predictable for in here I think.