Boy Dies After Choosing Prayer Over Medicine
Do I show any sympathies for the 16 year old...
no.
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Boy Dies After Choosing Prayer Over Medicine
Do I show any sympathies for the 16 year old...
no.
those parents should be in jail for the rest of their lives. Since when a belief on a god has value for a dead person? The person still looses. In this particular case, his education was wrong wrong and wrong. Up to some point it's understandable why he refused medicine, but in the end, even at age of 16, even if it made no sense, you should know to respect a life above a belief in another entity.
I must always remind myself how fundamentally primitive a species we are.
We are far from ready to become anything better. Our technology advances at a faster rate than our minds. This will prove to be a problem..
...It already is.
I've have a urinary infection and it's no fun. At first I was thinking my response to this post would be like "who are you guys to wag your fingers at what other people choose?" but this sounds pretty fucked up. I simply cannot see somebody thinking "god's gonna save me any minute" while dealing with a urinary tract condition. Fuck that, you have to pee so bad all the fucking time and it never stops. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. You will jam that catheater in my penis and I don't care if I have to sacrifice a virgin to get it.
The existence of mindless zealotry does not mean that technological advancement isn't in sync with our development as a species, it simply means there are pockets of cultures and people who insist on being extremely conservative. Not much can be done about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
To what extent can you really say it was the boy's decision? He was hopelessly indoctrinated, and so were the parents, though they should have known better, especially after the niece died recently from similar problems. Freedom of religion is one thing, but when children start dying needlessly the cult leaders should be held accountable.
The majority of people. The percent of the human population who are progressively thinking and secular is tiny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
It's unfortunate because you can't exactly pass a law protecting people from indoctrination and you can't stop indoctrinated individuals from making their own choices. Furthermore it seems only appropriate that someone would be granted the right to choose their own medical treatment by the age of 14, even if they're just respecting their parent's wishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
But it's fucking nauseating to think about that poor kid up all night for a week straight with urinary pains until finally dropping dead. I'm sure if his parents were in that position they would have said fuck it and got help. But they didn't know his pain and he didn't know of any other way. It's absolutely disgusting but legally nothing could be done to prevent such a thing.
It's not just religious/conservative nuts. It's almost everybody. Because only an incredibly small amount of people actually stop and think about what our technology is going to be, and how it will change us and the rest of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvo
You greatly underestimate other people's thinking process.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
No, I really don't.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
The parents in relation to that article should have been charged and convicted of manslaughter. I'm a Christian and there is absolutely no way in hell I'll refuse any kind of medical treatment for my daughters if needed. This is a form of child abuse in my eyes, because for starters, the average 16 year old doesn't have the slightest clue about anything and these parents failed their child because of their stupidity.
Why aren't you happy? God gave a urinary tract condition to a boy whose parents he knew were heavily indoctrinated, and the boy is now dead. God must be feeling pretty chuffed right now about his plans working out.
Even Steve Jobs fell for this kind of thinking. He believed a bunch of hippies about vegan diets curing cancer rather than medicine. That's why he's dead now.
Regardless of whether any legal action can be taken against them, those parents failed their child in a fundamental way.
A tragic example of the kinds of moronic thinking that religion can inspire.
Edit: Apparently Oregon law allows those over the age of 14 to make choices over their own treatment, an unbelievably low age...
It's at times like this that I'm reminded of why I think so lowly of the human race as a whole.
He did resort to conventional medicine eventually, which is more than can be said for some. Still amazing that someone of Jobs' intellect would fall for such nonsense though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
This kind of religious indoctrination is no different from the way a dictator holds power over his populace, by controlling what people are allowed to think and know - keeping them ignorant and dependent. How far would religious freedom extend if someone's religion tells them to murder infidels? Does it need to become Jonestown before people take notice?
All I hear from you Xei is, "God gave this, God gave that" For someone who doesn't believe in God you sure do invest a tremendous amount of time in thinking about Him every single day all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Thinking about religion in a religious thread about religion. Whatever next.
Yup where you spend a tremendous amount of your time.
I do. He died because he was lied to for his entire life. Sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarflare
I wonder if the parents think it was a test of their faith and that they passed because they never gave in?
That's a pretty detrimental attitude. If we adopted the belief that we pass God's tests even when the result is absolutely horrendous the religion doesn't even keep intact a basic reward/punishment structure. The purpose of these dogmatically run religions is so people that need it can live by a moral compass. Even Job got all his stuff back at the end.
He wasn't a scientist. Just because he was intelligent, doesn't mean he understood the science behind eating vegan and conventional medicine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
You don't need to be a scientist to understand concepts like science, rationality and scepticism. You don't even need to be smart.
I spend hardly any of my time here. I make a random foray about as often as I post in Inner Sanctum, which again is very rarely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I gotta agree with Ne-yo on this one. I'm a christian, and I would never shrug off something potentially life threatening because I'm praying on it. If I were that age, my parents would have taken me straight to the hospital. There's nothing in the Bible that says anything against going to the hospital, and most of that faith healing stuff is just garbage. Once again, more publicity that's out there to make all religions look bad. Great job media.
Did you just shift the blame off his religious beliefs and onto the media?Quote:
Originally Posted by Auron
I don't think that's honest.
No he's saying the media is trying to attack religion by highlighting these extreme cases of abuse.
Not that I agree, but please guys, stop with all the strawmen.
If he was getting information which gave some rational looking reason why a vegan diet would prevent or cure cancer, but he didn't have any understanding of why it wouldn't actually work orQuote:
Originally Posted by Xei
why it's just pure bullshit, then he would obviously believe it. And obviously did.
My point was, intelligence does not equal scientific knowledge. And to make a properly informed decision, one would need to know about the science behind cancer. Otherwise you're just taking other people's
word for it.
There's something in the Bible about forcing women to marry their rapists. Thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Auron
No, you're listening to peer-reviewed research. If you were diagnosed with cancer, it would probably be a good idea to find out what actual confirmed studies say about combating it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Are these Christian Scientists? Or some similar denomination? Anyway, obviously extremists - I don't think their aversion to medical science comes from the bible, but more from the longstanding schizm between church and "atheist" science - because basically religious belief is assaulted on all sides by science. So these anti-science groups (like the ironically named Christian Science) are essentially putting their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALA!" as loud as they can when it comes to modern medicine.
I don't know if the media was trying to point an accusing finger at all religion, but it sure does help to make people aware of this kind of totalitarian cultist extremism that's going on right in our midst.
I am sorry he had to die. Sorry his mind was polluted by the evil, naive grip of religion. Sorry his family will probably make up some bullshit excuse for why "God took him" and convince themselves he didn't die in vain, when he did.
Ok, here we go:
In other words DENIAL.Quote:
Christian Science asserts that man and the universe as a whole are spiritual rather than material in nature and that goodness and truth are real, whereas evil and error are illusory aspects of material existence.[2] Christian Scientists believe that through prayer, knowing and understanding, all things are possible for good through God.
Can't save people from themselves, unfortunately.
You should be able to save them from their parents tho.
Well speaking of cancer, diet has been shown to have an effect. Diet is probably very useful in helping prevent cancer. The thing to understand about cancer though, is that it can bee really aggressive, so if its already at noticeable levels, you need to hit it with everything you got.
As for praying, everyone knows that doesn't work. Its only a few extreme people who will refuse treatment and pray instead.
-_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Except for these people.
There is some evidence to support that switching your diet to a higher alkaline content and reducing your acid content decreases your vulnerability to disease and illness. There are some people who have taken this to mean if they eat Dates and Apricots all day they'll never get sick. The reality is that one must maintain a diet of 80% alkalizing foods to stop acid build up. But the new-age miracle remedy has overshadowed the reality of the findings. This is because we generalize to a disgusting extent. Reality is dwarfed by our bias and things are placed on a list of healthy or unhealthy (then we ignored the list cause unhealthy has all the good stuff). This kind of thinking where "everybody knows this" is related to the root of the problem here. Consensus > Information.
I'm one person who does not believe prayer is useless. I don't think prayer can cure cancer, especially not prayer rooted in fear (and how can that sort of prayer not be?) But I make decisions based on reason (making room for those rare and very powerful intuitions) and reason dictates that you fix a body like you fix a car. The parts work together a certain way, and the machine either functions properly or it does not. Functionality is the closest to truth you will ever see me travel. Prayer is as valuable as it is functional, this does not need to be an empirically provable functionality as long as I receive a reward for my behavior.
Some people also believe the earth is flat, the center of the universe and only 9000 years old.
What is your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Yes, do you think everybody knows about peer reviewed studies? I guarantee you they don't. Most people, if you mentioned that to them, would be like wtf are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
And that is why I said intelligence does not equal knowledge of everything.
Also....
I was going to mention this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
The people who convinced him to do this, or maybe it was through his own research, either way, he probably came across these studies and other studies showing benefits from a vegan diet and decided it must work.
--------
I'm not sure at all what you're saying here. But I think the only thing prayer could possibly do is make you optimistic and more happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Which would obviously help you fight off an illness, compared to if you're scared and anxious.
I'm not sure how much of an effect it would have in cancer though. Since the immune system rarely even recognises cancer afaik.
In what way do you think it's useful? I think that it might be useful for the same reason that giving oneself time to meditate or reflect on one's own thoughts can be useful. But that doesn't justify belief in the deity. You're still praying to something that isn't there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
I don't know what to think about the age thing. 16 seems old enough to me for someone to make his own decisions. I could think independently from my parents at that age, but I had the internet. In this case the kid was indoctrinated, so I don't know. I think I'm more on the side of blaming everyone - the church for indoctrinating, the parents for not using their brains enough and allowing themselves to remain indoctrinated, and the kid for the same reason. But I don't think the parents should be held legally responsible and definitely disagree with the second post.
As others have said, the parents might have sought medical help for themselves. If so, I suspect the reason is that religious people sort of know, in the backs of their minds, if they were completely honest with themselves, that God isn't really going to save them. But a child will take the belief more seriously and be more likely to really believe that God is going to save him. He hasn't experienced the decades of life that his parents have, which have made them realise on a subconscious level that miracles don't really happen.
The courts have already set precedence for this, the parents should go to jail. The priest also tends to be sent to jail, as does the doctor who didn't call protective services.
Of course not. People who think prayer is useless are just as stupid as think it can cure terminal illness. It's a placebo effect, which can be quiet powerful for certain things, but it doesn't substitute real medicine for serious ailments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
The family is like a private world where everything takes place behind closed doors. It's basically a sovereign dictatorship free from the constraints and laws of the outer world. And unfortunately the outside world doesn't usually find out about what's going on in there until the police cars and ambulances pull up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sornaensis
But I don't think the Placebo effect should be written off as though because it's caused by the mind that means it's not real medicine. Placebo is a type of medicine, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
But there's multiple ways to look at this. Consider building a car. When you build it, it either runs the way it should or it does not. A leads to B. Cause and Effect.
Prayer stands apart from this concept which is why I think its tragic when people buy into its ability to cause things but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's completely pointless, either. Prayer influences outcomes, it does not cause them (and only the right kind of prayer, none of that begging shit people consider to be prayer). In the end, prayer can create a positive charge to attract certain outcomes but action is required to manifest them. In other words I believe miracles work through causal manifestation. Even if you prayed, the most you could pray for is that the action will go smoothly. Prayer cannot replace action.
Look, there is really no way an intelligent decision can be made to reject conventional medicine for new age rubbish. A priori, it makes you a pillock. Stop defending stupidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
There is in some cases, like if you have a headache. But not really in the case of cancer. I know that's not what you're talking about, but there are some times when alternative medicine is better than conventional medicine do to the stress some drugs put on the body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
You should work for Pfizer. Your rejection of medical discovery as new age rubbish and blind faith in conventional medicine is perfect for a Pharmaceutical Spokesperson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Oh wow Xei. You're so far off of what I was actually saying, it's actually quite funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Seems to me you were defending Jobs' decision to combat cancer with unsupported nonsense as compatible with intelligence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Spoiler for Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works?:
Why would I 'reject medical discovery'? Derp some moar.
What a fun coincidence that I should happen to be watching Tim Minchin when I read this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Yeah I'm on E4 + 1 right now. ;V
Lol, I guessed as much!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
What? I'm sorry, WHAT? :lol: You're actually trying to convince us that the MEDIA is anti-religion? The media is actually mostly conservative, pro-religion, pro-gender norms and anti-intellectual, so it's FAR more of a risk for the media to show an atheist's perspective. After all, the nutjob religious groups would get mad, and they certainly don't want that. You can't even take the Lord's name in vain on TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Auron
I'm completely ignorant about this but wouldn't it depend on the media source?
The more I return to this thread the harder and colder my heart becomes.
This is malarky. If they can't patent it, they call it alternative medicine whether it works or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Interesting to note that in the US most prescriptions (69%) are generic drugs. Sales in 2007 were ~$59bn verses $228bn for branded drugs. There is a huge market for stuff that works. Even if you can't patent a drug you can still make a shitload from selling it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Go and learn about the pharmaceutical industry before making such comments.
There is only one type of medicine that works: medicine. If homeopathy, crystal healing, or any of these bullshit 'treatments' worked, they would all be classified as medicine.
Prayer heals the heart.
Medicine heals the body.
So the boy chooses to heal the heart over the body.
I say both should come together.
When did I mention crystals? Nice fallacy. Funny you tell me I need to research Big Pharma more but here it seems I have to explain to you how the system works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
Generic Drugs cannot be made until the patent on the original expires. At this point, due to the funding the patented product received for clinical testing, the Generic Company has a fraction of the overhead. Because they are identical to their predecessors, Generic Drugs can skip the entire process of clinical testing and research which is what costs all the funding. Bypassing these expenses but profiting from their findings is how Generic Drugs have found a market. If you can't patent it then it never gets researched in the first place. Even if what tests have been performed work, most insurance companies won't cover alternative practices which basically covers anything that didn't come with a patent at some point and many things that did.
Would you be surprised to learn how many cancer treatments have better remission rates than chemotherapy but don't get used? Look up Aloe Arborescens.
If I had cancer I'd give money to anybody supplying a superior substance.
Would you be surprised to know that that research was only conducted almost 3 years ago, so there hasn't been anywhere near enough time for such a product to pass all the trials and get on to the market? Further, typically what happens when a natural medicine is discovered is they research it to find out why it works, with the aim of figuring out the mechanism of action, so they can then make more effective treatments with reduced side effects. Do they like patentable drugs? Yes, because they can make more money out of them. But this idea that pharmaceutical companies don't make use of this stuff is asinine. It's like those conspiracy theorists who believe oil companies are suppressing free energy products.Quote:
Would you be surprised to learn how many cancer treatments have better remission rates than chemotherapy but don't get used? Look up Aloe Arborescens.
Besides, any company could take an extract and add it to an already existing branded drug of theirs. In some cases they might even be able to patent the mixture, but even if they couldn't then they've just made an even more effective product which will gain more sales because it's more effective than their competitors' products. Clearly I need to add poor understanding of market forces to my list of accusations about you.
No you don't, and you told me nothing I didn't know. My point was A) there is an interest in providing these products and B) there is a very large market for these products.Quote:
Funny you tell me I need to research Big Pharma more but here it seems I have to explain to you how the system works.
You mentioned alternative medicine. I enlightened you as to what alternative medicine actually means. Your example fails spectacularly because there is research being conducted in legitimate and credible medical journals about the effectiveness of Aloe Arborescens, with evidence that it might be valuable. How the hell does that remotely qualify as "alternative medicine"? Where are these pharmaceutical companies that are labelling it as such?Quote:
When did I mention crystals? Nice fallacy.
If you chew willow bark for pain relief, that is medicine. Less refined, and more primitive and less effective medicine, but medicine nevertheless. There is nothing "alternative" about it, and the only time the word "alternative" is used is when a bunch of people make claims they can't back up.
Edit: I'll also note that I actually know people who work in that industry, and sometimes there is a delay in researching stuff simply because they have their hands full testing other stuff. If you knew anything about the testing process you would understand how much effort goes into this, and that ultimately there is only a finite amount that can be done at any given time.
Kudos for the patience and perseverance.
The FDA requires all generic drugs be identical to their counterparts. Adding a new active ingredient changes the formula so it can change the way it effects the body. Adding something new to a patented drug in order to bypass the patent law is illegal, known as a designer drug and can only be sold illegally. This is because it's dangerous to sell an untested product.
Furthermore, the Oil Companies are trying to suppress green technology.
Seems everything else in your post was ad hominem so I'll leave it at that.
You're a shameful dogmatist. When was the last time you changed your mind about something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Look who's talking
By the way I'm quite shameless about it. And in answer to your question my mind changes every moment. It is a fluid sort of thing. I am learning by arguing, not only what others have to say but also how to better articulate what I have to say. It is a process and we are all both student and teacher.
Well, that's definitely true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
I used to have a very similar opinion to you. Because I was researching all the medicinal effects Cannabis has.
I thought the only reason it wasn't being sold now as a pharmaceutical is because it has dogma associated with it and they can't patent it.
The truth is, if it works, someone will make it, whether they can patent the compound/material or not.
And someone did, GW Pharmaceuticals in the UK patented a method for extracting the active ingredients from the plant, and they now sell it in several countries and
are working on getting it recognised in many more.
It takes about 10 years for a chemical to go from first testing phases to released product. Because it takes so long to test its effectiveness and safety.
However I know there ARE things which work, but no one will touch them, they say due to the dogma associated with them, but it's really obvious that it's just because they can't patent it, because it's already been used for different purposes for 50 years, and the patent's expired.
But that doesn't mean that they won't be manufactured for this purpose by someone, somewhere, eventually.
But the truth is also that products that can make money with patents have a more lubricated ride through the testing phase. I'm not trying to imply that pharmaceutical companies hold some sort of monopoly. All I am saying is that medicine which cannot be patented is mislabeled alternative medicine by the Big Pharma PR machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Yeah, I do agree with you on that for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
If they stand to make a shitload of money from it, they will do anything they can to get it past all the trial stages.
It's also a telltale sign when literally every person in the regulating agencies have ties to pharmaceutical companies.
Photolysis just patiently dealt with this idea. Like an additional 25% of their income comes from unpatented drugs. Medicines that are genuinely cheaper and work better simply can't fail to be produced under market forces. You dismissed pretty much the whole post as an ad hominem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Incidentally, free energy is nothing to do with green energy.
Couldn't help but notice this article is 4 years old. How did you stumble across this in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarflare
If photolysis wanted a better response he should have included less personal attacks in his argument. Besides, that has nothing to do with my point. My point remains valid and photolysis did not say anything that contradicts it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I love how a large majority of people believe pharmaceuticals are evil corporations suppressing medicine and solutions for cancer.
Truth is, CEOs get sick too, and no doubt one of them has a friend or family member who has died from cancer in the past. So I doubt there would be any suppression of Medicine or solutions for health related problems. In reality, what happens is researchers are paid by pharmaceuticals to research medicine, a drug or solution is created and vigorously tested in controlled laboratories, government approval for human trial, human trial takes place, government approval for mass-production, a group of financial planners assesses whether or not a "drug" or medical solution is feasible for financial gain, 9 times out of 10 it is feasible especially if it is a large medical advancement, production, sale on consumer market.
Keep in mind as well that pharmaceuticals are Oligopolies which are heavily backed by Government. An effective Government controls the spending of taxes and better medical solutions leads to a decrease in medical spending by Governments. Therefore, emphasis is usually focused on the advancement of medical technology and solutions for pharmaceuticals.
However, whether this is applicable for the United States is questionable due to private healthcare and ineffective Government.
Source: Economics Student + Personally know someone who worked for Glaxo.
Yes there isQuote:
Originally Posted by Xei
The medication I was prescribed for simple stomach ulcers increased the chances of stomach cancer, how retarded is that? I did my own research and found way too many horror stories over the medication, which needed more medications to fix. Instead I turned to "new age" which told me stress was the root cause of stomach ulcers. After six months of pain, I finally sat down and meditated. I had no ulcer symptoms after.
Cancer.... The truth is the survival rate of conventional treatment isnt as high as we would like. There are stories of people taking conventional treatment and live. There are stories of people taking conventional treatment and die. Just as there are stories of vegan diets curing cancer patients, and there are stories where it doesnt work. By your logic because the vegan diet wasn't a 100% fool proof cure, well we should also toss out conventional cancer treatment by those same standards.
I really dont have anything to say concerning this tragedy, but I think the parents are suffering enough from their loss. This illness sounds painful, and Im having a hard time understanding how someone can bare with that pain and remain such a positive outlook on prayer. As for the christians criticizing this case, this goes back to the why doesnt God heal amputees? The bible maintains that faith alone heals. Christians need to ask why these prayers aren't being answered.
It doesnt make any sense to me to claim to be Christian while also simultaneously saying praying doesnt work and God aint healing you. Something is seriously wrong with that picture.
Government doesn't approve medicine. There are regulatory agencies which consist entirely of people either from the pharmaceutical industry, or with direct monetary ties to the pharmaceutical industry (i.e bribes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
It is perfectly reasonable to assume that some drugs don't get through approval simply because another rival company doesn't want it to.
I never said medicine which can't get patented is banned (marijuana is an exception, though) but what I was arguing was that if medicine can be patented, its testing process gets lubricated by Big Pharma and researchers are too busy working on all the crap that Big Pharma is trying to make a profit from to research medicine which cannot be patented.
Then again, you can patent an extraction process. Which is what GW Pharmaceuticals are doing for the countries where it appears medical marijuana is never going to be legalised *sigh*....
This is hardly convincing evidence that new age medicine is more effective than "western medicine". Besides stomach ulcers are caused by a bacterium in the gut not stress. If stress is correlated in any way with the presence of ulcers, I would imagine that the evidence would be dubious at best; considering that people who have ulcers have a disposition to be effing stressed in the first place. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
One reason why "the survival rate of conventional treatment isnt as high as we would like" is because cancer is a very diverse disease reflecting the diversity of cells in the human body. We have no found a cure-all method yet...there are different treatments depending on the type of cancer, the stage the cancer is in, body location, etc. What is more beneficial to mankind: investing in "alternative health" treatments and preventions or investing in the research based medicine that has been integral to the extension of human life expectancy in the past 100 years? Compare the average lifespan, in for instance Africa where some countries do not have direct access to pharmaceutical medicine with say Japan or even America and tell me their is no correlation between life expectancy and the access to western medicine?Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Consult the chart
http://www.theglobaleducationproject...ctancy-map.gif
Life Expectancy, Food and Hunger, Access to Safe Water, AIDS, Population, and Human Conditions - Earth Web Site
Holistic healing or alternative medicine is dandy if that is what floats your boat but it is not a viable alternative to actual medicine.
Seriously now.
The thing is, there are other viable methods of treating cancer besides radiation and chemotherapy. What research has been done has so far confirmed this.
lulwut?Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
Also, stress lowers the immune system. Which lets the bacteria form ulcers. Pretty sure this is well established.
All cancers have one thing in common. They don't die by themselves. THC has been shown to induce apoptosis (programmed cell death), and therefore kills all cancers if it's injected in to it, possibly when eaten too.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
With the lifespan thing, it can be incredibly misleading. Are you talking about average lifespan that includes infant mortality, or lifespan excluding infant mortality?
Yes there are other viable methods of treatment besides radiation and chemotherapy, like immunotherapy and hormonal therapy but the effectiveness of these treatments depends on the type and stage of the cancer as I have said before. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater because we do not have a single effective method is absurd. Please show me a peer-reviewed paper that explicitly states that "alternative medicine" is more effective at treating cancer than the conventional methods backed by research. And Tommo marijuana does have empirically verifiable medical properties it is not alternative medicine because there is scientific evidence supporting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Not sure what the "lulwut" remark was for but lets at least try to have a civil discussion for once Tommo, without you calling me names and generally replacing arguments with insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
This "I would imagine that the evidence would be dubious at best considering that people who have ulcers have a disposition to be effing stressed in the first place. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say." was my attempt at dry humor but as usual someone took it literally, its my fault for being condescending in the first place.
No this is not well established. Yes stress lowers the immune system. Stress is not the physiological cause of ulcers, the bacterium is. Lets make a silly analogy. What causes erectile dysfunction? Is it stress or lack of blood flow to the penis? Not a trick question. What is the actual physiological cause? Yes stress is correlated with the dysfunction but the actual cause is lack of blood flow. That is my point.
You are confusing correlation with causation. Saying stress is the cause of ulcers is a post-hoc analysis, there is actual evidence supporting the fact that a bacterium in the human gut is the cause of ulcers.
Yes there is some research that backs this up, Thc is effective against some cancers yes. I realize posting a picture with color-coded statistics is pretty misleading if you don't know what you are looking at so I included a link at the bottom of that post and yes it includes infant mortality rate. If you want to argue that somehow countries without access to western medicine have a lower infant mortality rate than countries that do have access to this technology, then you have your work cut out for you. But I don't think you would try to argue that, Omnis Dei maybe, but not you surely.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I have no idea why this small portion of religious people find it so difficult to rationalize "God will provide."
They don't avoid EATING because "God will provide." They don't "pray" to feel full and obtain nutrition... If they believe God provides the food that they eat... why doesn't God provide the doctor?
I'm definitely arguing the opposite. What I was saying is that infant mortality can drive the "average lifespan" either up or down dramatically.
That is why some of those countries without Western medicine have such low average lifespans.
If you take infant mortality out of the equation, they wouldn't have an average lifespan so low, it's basically the same as ours.
Medicine simply hasn't increased our lifespan by much at all. I think the recent data showed it's about 3 years.
It's a poor indicator of how good medicine is, you'd need to somehow measure quality of life, instead of quantity, coz three years is nothing special to boast about, especially if it's spent writhing in agony from
some advanced fatal disease which is simply being slowed for no reason.
A religious man is stuck on the side of a cliff with rapids below.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!"
The religous man replies, "NO! I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."
Later, another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again.
He responds that he has faith in god and god will save him.
Next, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in,
again, he again turns down the request for help.
He falls to his death.
He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter,
"I thought God would grant me a miracle and I have been let down."
St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you two boats and a helicopter."
Depends on the country. Which is why I disregarded the US. Countries with Adequate healthcare are applicable to my statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Australia has great healthcare and we still have pharmaceutical pawns in the TGA.
America is not good at doing things well.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Take Social Security for example; Social Security is pretty simple: you take money from working folk. You give it to retired folk. Instead it's all being siphoned into the Defense Department and our wars... WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT.
I did the research into all available treatments, did you just google for five seconds to simply debate me? Ulcers are not caused by one reason and mines were not caused by bacteria. Stress can increase the amount of stomach acid being produced, and if there is no food in your stomach then its your stomach that gets burned. I knew that stress was the cause, as do many people prone to ulcers, because just being stressed would "burn" me up. But why should I have doubt because of an internet post? I experienced it. Did you?Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
[/quote]What is more beneficial to mankind: investing in "alternative health" treatments and preventions or investing in the research based medicine that has been integral to the extension of human life expectancy in the past 100 years?[/quote]
Investing into the curing properties of plant life is a thousand times more beneficial than researching into synthetic compounds that didn't exist during our evolution, and therefore have no place in our body. There is no reason why holistic medicine cant be research based. People have lived to 100 or more years long before we synthesized anything. You should instead be asking why life expectancy dropped in the first place.
Why dont YOU consult the charts? Why aren't americans, the land of every medication, living to 120 years of age? Why has the healthcare sector been one of the largest growing sectors in america? Healthcare doesnt grow when people are healthy, it grows when people are sick.Quote:
Compare the average lifespan, in for instance Africa where some countries do not have direct access to pharmaceutical medicine with say Japan or even America and tell me their is no correlation between life expectancy and the access to western medicine?
Consult the chart
http://www.theglobaleducationproject...ctancy-map.gif
Life Expectancy, Food and Hunger, Access to Safe Water, AIDS, Population, and Human Conditions - Earth Web Site
Holistic healing or alternative medicine is dandy if that is what floats your boat but it is not a viable alternative to actual medicine.
Seriously now.
Malnutrition. Dirty water. Poor living conditions. Crop failures.
Thats whats killing people. Not lack of access to western medicine. You forgot to ask why Africans are so sick to begin with. Holistic medicine isnt voodoo. Its philosophy is based in science. So yes, investing in preventive medicine is that much more worth it.
Western medicine takes a reductionist approach - heal the symptom. Holistic medicine doesn't see a symptom, it instead recognizes your being is composed of multiple systems that work together.
For example, my medication aimed to stop my stomach from producing acid because western scientists thought "well if the stomach stops producing acid then the ulcer wont hurt dur-hur". Brilliant! Whys my stomach making acid anyways, thats dumb! Stomach acid kills bacteria, as well as helps to digest my food - not that thats important I guess the food can just sit in my stomach festering. Taking the medication increased your risk of bacterial infection, which made absolutely no sense considering an ulcer is an open wound.
I turned to holistic medicine because it made more logical scientific sense, and it was tasty. Certain fruits and foods coat the lining of the stomach with oil, preventing the stomach acid from burning the ulcer. While other foods were the natural enemy of any bacteria known to irritate ulcers. I didn't have to disrupt the digestive process.
We need to start taking holistic medicine seriously rather than treating it like trash. Biologists and environmentalists agree, they believe many cures can be derived from plant life - if only we made the effort to protect plant life and earnestly study its properties. Do you know why Big Pharma tries so hard to fool westerners into thinking holistic medicine is silly and not worth studying? It all boils down to control and money.
What would Big Pharma rather say to a poorer nation? That crops you can grow can be transformed into medication? Or that only synthesized chemicals made in our fancy country, sold to you for a high ass price is the only thing that can save you.
By studying holistic medicines, we empower poorer nations to heal themselves.
Stormcrow you put me in a pickle by claiming marijuana is not alternative medicine. If I provide a peer-reviewed source to back up alternative medicine, by your definition, it would no longer be alternative medicine. I cannot answer your question based on your definition of the word. But I do have plenty of friends who have gotten cancer and the ones that took radiation very much regret not pursuing alternative methods. By my definition, anything against your doctor's recommendation is in the territory of alternative because you're alternating away from what you were told to do.
No, I did not but apparently neither did you considering there are no peer-reviewed research papers asserting that the cause of ulcers is stress. Not a single one. If your “alternative doctor” suggested this then it is no surprise that he is not a certified MD. Yes there are several causes of ulcers but even with that in mind, stress is not a cause. It simply isn’t, it’s not my opinion either. Please provide an actual medical article that suggests this (ahh but of course medical science is a conspiracy right?).Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Are you aware that many “synthetic compounds” are naturally derived?Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
The reason why holistic medicine is not research based is because there is no evidence that its methods produce any kind of physiological effect that cannot be attributed to the placebo effect (and conformation bias). If tomorrow we discovered that homeopathic solutions did have a measurable, quantifiable effect on the human body it would not longer be “holistic medicine” it would simply be medicine. Until alternative medicine has passed the trial of empirical verification then it simply is junk, deal with it. If you want to meditate with healing crystals or burn herbs, that is your privilege but trying to undermine one of the most significant achievements of the human race, medicine, and peddling your snake oil in its place will not be tolerated without challenge from me.
What the fuck?Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Is this real life?Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Here is a better question, why don’t you have malaria?
Oh ok. So the fact that the infant mortality rate in America is lower than say Somalia is just a coincidence right? It has nothing whatsoever to do with access to western (gasp, materialist) medicine? Yes we should invest in preventative medicine, like vaccines. Do you think the reason why you do not have meningitis, malaria, measles, polio, etc is because you have a positive attitude or because you live a “holistic” lifestyle? Please, please answer this question.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
“Why are Africans so sick in the first place?” Famine and disease from unsanitary living conditions and overpopulation? Ok but how does this in any way undermine the validity of western medicine? Holistic medicine is not even a step up from voodoo. If you think holistic medicine is just meditating, exercising and having a good diet then you are confused. All of these lifestyle choices do have a measurable physiological effect on the body and no doctor in the world would tell you to not engage in these activities. If we are talking about homoeopathy, healing crystal, prayer, etc then yes that is “alternative or holistic medicine” because there is no empirical evidence supporting them.
So do you or do you not feel that holistic medicine is a viable alternative to western, research based medicine? If you are suffering from a gunshot you would go to the hospital not pray, end of story. I don’t care if you are unwilling to admit it but you know this is true.
Please share the name of this medicine. It made your stomach stop producing acid or stop producing so much acid? You did not specify. Stomach acid kills some bacteria but obviously there are species of bacteria that have evolved to live in acid, like the ones that cause ulcers. What medicine “increases your risk of bacterial infection” this is a bit vaugue.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
I am sure as shit not going to entertain a discussion on “Big Pharma” or any related conspiracy theories. If you have an issue with the way medicine is distributed to third world countries then that is another issue entirely and I don’t think we would have much disagreement there. But you are making the claim that not only is holistic medicine a viable alternative but also that western medicine is ineffective. Please demonstrate to me how this is the case, and I don’t care for anecdotal experience. I’m thinking more along the lines of actual research and peer-reviewed papers (Ill save you some time, there are not any).Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
It is fine if you believe in the validity of holistic medicine but trying to undermine research based medicine is misguided and futile.
There's little point in debating medicine with juroara. If you're looking for anything remotely based in fact and reality, you're talking to the wrong person. On the other hand if you're looking for staggering ignorance and batshit insane ideas...
The comment about synthetic verses 'natural' medication is gold though. It would be hilarious if the stupidity didn't make me so depressed. It reminds me of why I hold misanthropic tendencies towards most of humanity.
There was a woman I know in a village near me and her son broke his anke very badly and the doctors said there was a chance he wouldn't be able to walk properly again . She prayed incessantly for nearly two days. As she was praying her son got out of bed and said that his ankle was better. He jumped about to prove it. The doctors and radiographer at the hospital were reluctant to do an x-ray but because of the healthy state the boy was in they did an x-ray. Outcome was that the ankle was in a perfect condition...
This reminds me of something I read in the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
In this book, two guys, Phaedrus and John are going to take a motorcycle trip around the country. Phaedrus knows how to maintain his bike, but John does not, nor does he think it is important. John thinks everything will work out.
The author, Persig, teaches the reader a spiritual lesson drawing a corrolary to motorcycle maintenance. This has stuck with me for 25 years.
"What we have here is a conflict of visions of reality. The world as you see it right here, right now, is reality, regardless of what the scientists say it might be. That's the way John sees it. But the world as revealed by it's scientific discoveries is also reality, regardless of how it may appear, and people in John's dimension are going to have to do more than just ignore it if they want to hang on to their vision of reality. John will discover this if his points burn out.
That's what Social Security is? I thought it was some sort of system so the government could basically know everything about you. For "security" purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
Wow, ok. lol
And this is the major problem. They're not the original compounds. They always have to tweak them (usually pretty much randomly) until they find one which has the same effects and they can patent it.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
Then they so "oh it's uhhhh.... safer, or some shit".
This is simply ridiculous. Just look at the evidence for psychedelics done in a traditional, ritualised setting. Can't get much more holistic than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow
And there's tonnes of proof for it.
Also, you can't just say it's no longer holistic if there's proof for it.
Holistic means it's more than just taking a drug to fix something.
For example in Homeopathy, the only thing proven to have an effect is the fact that the "doctors" who "practice" it spend 75% longer with their patients than GP's.
People need more than just a pill or a spray or whatever. Our feelings are directly connected to our ability to heal and feel healthy.
If GP's took this proof in to practice, (even though its not possible because of the shortage of doctors), they would also be practicing holistic medicine.
You have to stop thinking Juroara is a whackjob alternative-anything guy. He may well be, but just look at his arguments, separated from that.
The only thing I don't agree with is that "Western medicine heals the symptoms while holistic medicine looks at the body as a whole/cures the cause" absolute fucking bullshit.
I've heard that too much recently and it pisses me off, coz it's so far from the truth it's not even mildly funny to me.
Dude.... Malaria does not exist in most countries. It's just because mosquitoes have not migrated here that carry Malaria.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePreserver
Nothing to do with medicine.
Just thought those things needed my input.
Hello, Chemist here.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
There are many reasons why a company would modify the structure of natural substances:
1) To try and discover a chemical that is even more effective / more stable / more soluble / better bioavailability / less toxic / fewer side effects, etc. There are a huge variety of properties that can be improved.
2) If you can replace certain parts of a molecule then it can greatly aid synthesis because you don't have to add protecting groups. Makes it much cheaper, quicker, and gives much higher yields, and it can make it much easier to achieve total synthesis. You want to know why so many anti-cancer drugs are so expensive for example? Because many are extremely complicated to produce, and in a variety of cases cannot yet be artificially produced. If they could be made synthetically it also makes it much easier to improve it further.
3) Yes, money also plays a part, but simply being able to make an effective product cheaply will get you a lot of profit. Drugs companies get a much higher profit margin on patentable drugs, but their cost is still heavily tied to how expensive they are to produce. Their demand is heavily tied to how effective it is compared to alternatives.
Drug development is a complicated process. Take a degree in Chemistry and you'll see why. Hell, even reading a few wikipedia articles on organic synthesis will give you an idea.
This also has a huge benefit to patients.
She is a nutjob who has gone on record many times arguing against scientific and evidence-based medicine, all whilst showing an abysmal knowledge of the subjects she attacks. Here's a good example which you actually liked back in the day, funnily enough. Did you forget all about this, or just change your mind, I wonder...Quote:
You have to stop thinking Juroara is a whackjob alternative-anything guy.
Ordinarily I wouldn't give a shit what such idiots do when it's their own personal choices, but when they start sprouting dangerous nonsense which can convince others who are ignorant then that's when it becomes a problem. You know one reason why so many get taken in by all the bullshit that's out there? Because there's so much of it that it's very easy to mistake it for real science when you're a layman.
In a lot of cases, though it does not actually improve the drug. Take simple Aspirin for example. They just modified salisylic acid in to acetylsalicylic acid. It's not really better in any way. But they could patent it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
Same reason there's so many -diazepines. The original diazepam has proven to be superior.
I know that's not a natural compound, but just an example of modifying a compound slightly to patent it.
I do know about the cancer drugs that can't be synthesised, and I'm aware that some drugs are cheaper to synthesise. But a synthetic one is probably going to be the same as a natural one, there's no need to change it, except for the fact that you need to patent it.
I think you can patent a synthesis method, but it doesn't last as long?
I have no doubt, and I was going to do that actually. Not anymore, but I have respect for how complicated and difficult it is for sure. Maybe not as much as you, but I have a fair idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
Oh, I slightly remember that. Cbf re-reading it all, but IIRC, I was just debating whether or not meditation worked for healing her/his ulcer. I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
But as I see, she was basically blasting all of western medicine, which I definitely would take issue with. Especially criticising doctors as a whole, like they're the ones to blame for all the problems, or one bad doctor = all doctors are incompetent :rolleyes:. I am very critical of Big Pharma and regulatory agencies (generally one in the same!) though.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
But I try to criticise or agree with the points singularly.
And some of the points she/he raises are correct, whereas others are fucking insane.
However I can see how this could confuse laymen (not that I'm not a laymen, but people even more lay than me, anyway, lol :lol:).
Salicylic acid is more irritating to tissue (it's used for chemical exfoliation of skin), and has a much higher risk of causing problems with the digestive tract such as bleeding, compared to aspirin. So it is actually better.Quote:
In a lot of cases, though it does not actually improve the drug. Take simple Aspirin for example. They just modified salisylic acid in to acetylsalicylic acid. It's not really better in any way. But they could patent it.
Will have to look at the rest of your post later.
EDIT:
Can't comment much without looking up the compounds in question but diazepam and its derivatives/analogues have a wide variety of uses. It's perfectly conceivable that pharma companies would change the structure to say, make it a better anticonvulsant.Quote:
Same reason there's so many -diazepines. The original diazepam has proven to be superior.
I know that's not a natural compound, but just an example of modifying a compound slightly to patent it.
I don't believe you can patent chemical processes, but there are companies out there that don't release their findings and protect them as trade secrets. I seem to recall an example where this occurred with diamond chemistry.Quote:
But a synthetic one is probably going to be the same as a natural one, there's no need to change it, except for the fact that you need to patent it.
I think you can patent a synthesis method, but it doesn't last as long?
If a drug offers the exact same performance as another except it comes with a large price tag, then who is going to buy it? They might patent it, but unless they can convince others to buy it - which requires some sort of benefit to the purchaser - then it's useless.
I'm not going to lie and say these companies don't care about money, or that they don't occasionally partake in unscrupulous behaviour, but for the most part they make an awful lot of money selling good products. Despite the kind of nonsense you hear from people like juroara about how these other cultures have amazing insights into medicine that our primitive western civilisation lacks, in actual fact many of those less privileged are screaming out for modern medicine. People in Africa don't want tribal medicine, or spiritual bullshit, they want modern drugs to treat diseases like TB and malaria... because they fucking work.