Thread: Boy Dies After Choosing Prayer Over Medicine

No he's saying the media is trying to attack religion by highlighting these extreme cases of abuse.

Not that I agree, but please guys, stop with all the strawmen.

Originally Posted by Xei

You don't need to be a scientist to understand concepts like science, rationality and scepticism. You don't even need to be smart.

If he was getting information which gave some rational looking reason why a vegan diet would prevent or cure cancer, but he didn't have any understanding of why it wouldn't actually work or
why it's just pure bullshit, then he would obviously believe it. And obviously did.

My point was, intelligence does not equal scientific knowledge. And to make a properly informed decision, one would need to know about the science behind cancer. Otherwise you're just taking other people's
word for it.

Originally Posted by Auron

There's nothing in the Bible that says anything against going to the hospital

There's something in the Bible about forcing women to marry their rapists. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by tommo

If he was getting information which gave some rational looking reason why a vegan diet would prevent or cure cancer, but he didn't have any understanding of why it wouldn't actually work or
why it's just pure bullshit, then he would obviously believe it. And obviously did.

My point was, intelligence does not equal scientific knowledge. And to make a properly informed decision, one would need to know about the science behind cancer. Otherwise you're just taking other people's
word for it.

No, you're listening to peer-reviewed research. If you were diagnosed with cancer, it would probably be a good idea to find out what actual confirmed studies say about combating it.

Are these Christian Scientists? Or some similar denomination? Anyway, obviously extremists - I don't think their aversion to medical science comes from the bible, but more from the longstanding schizm between church and "atheist" science - because basically religious belief is assaulted on all sides by science. So these anti-science groups (like the ironically named Christian Science) are essentially putting their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALA!" as loud as they can when it comes to modern medicine.

I don't know if the media was trying to point an accusing finger at all religion, but it sure does help to make people aware of this kind of totalitarian cultist extremism that's going on right in our midst.

I am sorry he had to die. Sorry his mind was polluted by the evil, naive grip of religion. Sorry his family will probably make up some bullshit excuse for why "God took him" and convince themselves he didn't die in vain, when he did.

Ok, here we go:

Christian Science asserts that man and the universe as a whole are spiritual rather than material in nature and that goodness and truth are real, whereas evil and error are illusory aspects of material existence.[2] Christian Scientists believe that through prayer, knowing and understanding, all things are possible for good through God.

In other words DENIAL.

Can't save people from themselves, unfortunately.

You should be able to save them from their parents tho.

Well speaking of cancer, diet has been shown to have an effect. Diet is probably very useful in helping prevent cancer. The thing to understand about cancer though, is that it can bee really aggressive, so if its already at noticeable levels, you need to hit it with everything you got.

As for praying, everyone knows that doesn't work. Its only a few extreme people who will refuse treatment and pray instead.

Originally Posted by Alric

As for praying, everyone knows that doesn't work.

-_-

Except for these people.

There is some evidence to support that switching your diet to a higher alkaline content and reducing your acid content decreases your vulnerability to disease and illness. There are some people who have taken this to mean if they eat Dates and Apricots all day they'll never get sick. The reality is that one must maintain a diet of 80% alkalizing foods to stop acid build up. But the new-age miracle remedy has overshadowed the reality of the findings. This is because we generalize to a disgusting extent. Reality is dwarfed by our bias and things are placed on a list of healthy or unhealthy (then we ignored the list cause unhealthy has all the good stuff). This kind of thinking where "everybody knows this" is related to the root of the problem here. Consensus > Information.

I'm one person who does not believe prayer is useless. I don't think prayer can cure cancer, especially not prayer rooted in fear (and how can that sort of prayer not be?) But I make decisions based on reason (making room for those rare and very powerful intuitions) and reason dictates that you fix a body like you fix a car. The parts work together a certain way, and the machine either functions properly or it does not. Functionality is the closest to truth you will ever see me travel. Prayer is as valuable as it is functional, this does not need to be an empirically provable functionality as long as I receive a reward for my behavior.

Some people also believe the earth is flat, the center of the universe and only 9000 years old.

Originally Posted by Alric

Some people also believe the earth is flat, the center of the universe and only 9000 years old.

What is your point?

Originally Posted by Xei

No, you're listening to peer-reviewed research. If you were diagnosed with cancer, it would probably be a good idea to find out what actual confirmed studies say about combating it.

Yes, do you think everybody knows about peer reviewed studies? I guarantee you they don't. Most people, if you mentioned that to them, would be like wtf are you talking about?
And that is why I said intelligence does not equal knowledge of everything.

Also....

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

There is some evidence to support that switching your diet to a higher alkaline content and reducing your acid content decreases your vulnerability to disease and illness.

I was going to mention this.
The people who convinced him to do this, or maybe it was through his own research, either way, he probably came across these studies and other studies showing benefits from a vegan diet and decided it must work.

--------

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I'm one person who does not believe prayer is useless. I don't think prayer can cure cancer, especially not prayer rooted in fear (and how can that sort of prayer not be?) But I make decisions based on reason (making room for those rare and very powerful intuitions) and reason dictates that you fix a body like you fix a car. The parts work together a certain way, and the machine either functions properly or it does not. Functionality is the closest to truth you will ever see me travel. Prayer is as valuable as it is functional, this does not need to be an empirically provable functionality as long as I receive a reward for my behavior.

I'm not sure at all what you're saying here. But I think the only thing prayer could possibly do is make you optimistic and more happy.
Which would obviously help you fight off an illness, compared to if you're scared and anxious.
I'm not sure how much of an effect it would have in cancer though. Since the immune system rarely even recognises cancer afaik.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I'm one person who does not believe prayer is useless.

In what way do you think it's useful? I think that it might be useful for the same reason that giving oneself time to meditate or reflect on one's own thoughts can be useful. But that doesn't justify belief in the deity. You're still praying to something that isn't there.

I don't know what to think about the age thing. 16 seems old enough to me for someone to make his own decisions. I could think independently from my parents at that age, but I had the internet. In this case the kid was indoctrinated, so I don't know. I think I'm more on the side of blaming everyone - the church for indoctrinating, the parents for not using their brains enough and allowing themselves to remain indoctrinated, and the kid for the same reason. But I don't think the parents should be held legally responsible and definitely disagree with the second post.

As others have said, the parents might have sought medical help for themselves. If so, I suspect the reason is that religious people sort of know, in the backs of their minds, if they were completely honest with themselves, that God isn't really going to save them. But a child will take the belief more seriously and be more likely to really believe that God is going to save him. He hasn't experienced the decades of life that his parents have, which have made them realise on a subconscious level that miracles don't really happen.

The courts have already set precedence for this, the parents should go to jail. The priest also tends to be sent to jail, as does the doctor who didn't call protective services.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I'm one person who does not believe prayer is useless.

Of course not. People who think prayer is useless are just as stupid as think it can cure terminal illness. It's a placebo effect, which can be quiet powerful for certain things, but it doesn't substitute real medicine for serious ailments.

Originally Posted by Sornaensis

Can't save people from themselves, unfortunately.

You should be able to save them from their parents tho.

The family is like a private world where everything takes place behind closed doors. It's basically a sovereign dictatorship free from the constraints and laws of the outer world. And unfortunately the outside world doesn't usually find out about what's going on in there until the police cars and ambulances pull up.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Of course not. People who think prayer is useless are just as stupid as think it can cure terminal illness. It's a placebo effect, which can be quiet powerful for certain things, but it doesn't substitute real medicine for serious ailments.

But I don't think the Placebo effect should be written off as though because it's caused by the mind that means it's not real medicine. Placebo is a type of medicine, period.

But there's multiple ways to look at this. Consider building a car. When you build it, it either runs the way it should or it does not. A leads to B. Cause and Effect.

Prayer stands apart from this concept which is why I think its tragic when people buy into its ability to cause things but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's completely pointless, either. Prayer influences outcomes, it does not cause them (and only the right kind of prayer, none of that begging shit people consider to be prayer). In the end, prayer can create a positive charge to attract certain outcomes but action is required to manifest them. In other words I believe miracles work through causal manifestation. Even if you prayed, the most you could pray for is that the action will go smoothly. Prayer cannot replace action.

Originally Posted by tommo

Yes, do you think everybody knows about peer reviewed studies? I guarantee you they don't. Most people, if you mentioned that to them, would be like wtf are you talking about?
And that is why I said intelligence does not equal knowledge of everything.

Look, there is really no way an intelligent decision can be made to reject conventional medicine for new age rubbish. A priori, it makes you a pillock. Stop defending stupidity.

Originally Posted by Xei

Look, there is really no way an intelligent decision can be made to reject conventional medicine for new age rubbish. A priori, it makes you a pillock. Stop defending stupidity.

There is in some cases, like if you have a headache. But not really in the case of cancer. I know that's not what you're talking about, but there are some times when alternative medicine is better than conventional medicine do to the stress some drugs put on the body.

Originally Posted by Xei

Look, there is really no way an intelligent decision can be made to reject conventional medicine for new age rubbish. A priori, it makes you a pillock. Stop defending stupidity.

You should work for Pfizer. Your rejection of medical discovery as new age rubbish and blind faith in conventional medicine is perfect for a Pharmaceutical Spokesperson.

Originally Posted by Xei

Look, there is really no way an intelligent decision can be made to reject conventional medicine for new age rubbish. A priori, it makes you a pillock. Stop defending stupidity.

Oh wow Xei. You're so far off of what I was actually saying, it's actually quite funny.

Seems to me you were defending Jobs' decision to combat cancer with unsupported nonsense as compatible with intelligence.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

You should work for Pfizer. Your rejection of medical discovery as new age rubbish and blind faith in conventional medicine is perfect for a Pharmaceutical Spokesperson.

Spoiler for Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works?:

'Medicine'.

Why would I 'reject medical discovery'? Derp some moar.

Originally Posted by Xei

Spoiler for Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works?:

'Medicine'.

What a fun coincidence that I should happen to be watching Tim Minchin when I read this.

Yeah I'm on E4 + 1 right now. ;V

Originally Posted by Xei

Yeah I'm on E4 + 1 right now. ;V

Lol, I guessed as much!