Thread: Boy Dies After Choosing Prayer Over Medicine

Originally Posted by stormcrow

This is hardly convincing evidence that new age medicine is more effective than "western medicine". Besides stomach ulcers are caused by a bacterium in the gut not stress. If stress is correlated in any way with the presence of ulcers, I would imagine that the evidence would be dubious at best

considering that people who have ulcers have a disposition to be effing stressed in the first place. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say.

lulwut?

Also, stress lowers the immune system. Which lets the bacteria form ulcers. Pretty sure this is well established.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

One reason why "the survival rate of conventional treatment isnt as high as we would like" is because cancer is a very diverse disease reflecting the diversity of cells in the human body. We have no found a cure-all method yet...there are different treatments depending on the type of cancer, the stage the cancer is in, body location, etc. What is more beneficial to mankind: investing in "alternative health" treatments and preventions or investing in the research based medicine that has been integral to the extension of human life expectancy in the past 100 years? Compare the average lifespan, in for instance Africa where some countries do not have direct access to pharmaceutical medicine with say Japan or even America and tell me their is no correlation between life expectancy and the access to western medicine?

All cancers have one thing in common. They don't die by themselves. THC has been shown to induce apoptosis (programmed cell death), and therefore kills all cancers if it's injected in to it, possibly when eaten too.

With the lifespan thing, it can be incredibly misleading. Are you talking about average lifespan that includes infant mortality, or lifespan excluding infant mortality?

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

The thing is, there are other viable methods of treating cancer besides radiation and chemotherapy. What research has been done has so far confirmed this.

Yes there are other viable methods of treatment besides radiation and chemotherapy, like immunotherapy and hormonal therapy but the effectiveness of these treatments depends on the type and stage of the cancer as I have said before. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater because we do not have a single effective method is absurd. Please show me a peer-reviewed paper that explicitly states that "alternative medicine" is more effective at treating cancer than the conventional methods backed by research. And Tommo marijuana does have empirically verifiable medical properties it is not alternative medicine because there is scientific evidence supporting it.

Originally Posted by tommo

lulwut?

Also, stress lowers the immune system. Which lets the bacteria form ulcers. Pretty sure this is well established.

Not sure what the "lulwut" remark was for but lets at least try to have a civil discussion for once Tommo, without you calling me names and generally replacing arguments with insults.

This "I would imagine that the evidence would be dubious at best considering that people who have ulcers have a disposition to be effing stressed in the first place. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say." was my attempt at dry humor but as usual someone took it literally, its my fault for being condescending in the first place.

No this is not well established. Yes stress lowers the immune system. Stress is not the physiological cause of ulcers, the bacterium is. Lets make a silly analogy. What causes erectile dysfunction? Is it stress or lack of blood flow to the penis? Not a trick question. What is the actual physiological cause? Yes stress is correlated with the dysfunction but the actual cause is lack of blood flow. That is my point.

You are confusing correlation with causation. Saying stress is the cause of ulcers is a post-hoc analysis, there is actual evidence supporting the fact that a bacterium in the human gut is the cause of ulcers.

Originally Posted by tommo

All cancers have one thing in common. They don't die by themselves. THC has been shown to induce apoptosis (programmed cell death), and therefore kills all cancers if it's injected in to it, possibly when eaten too.

With the lifespan thing, it can be incredibly misleading. Are you talking about average lifespan that includes infant mortality, or lifespan excluding infant mortality?

Yes there is some research that backs this up, Thc is effective against some cancers yes. I realize posting a picture with color-coded statistics is pretty misleading if you don't know what you are looking at so I included a link at the bottom of that post and yes it includes infant mortality rate. If you want to argue that somehow countries without access to western medicine have a lower infant mortality rate than countries that do have access to this technology, then you have your work cut out for you. But I don't think you would try to argue that, Omnis Dei maybe, but not you surely.

I have no idea why this small portion of religious people find it so difficult to rationalize "God will provide."

They don't avoid EATING because "God will provide." They don't "pray" to feel full and obtain nutrition... If they believe God provides the food that they eat... why doesn't God provide the doctor?

I'm definitely arguing the opposite. What I was saying is that infant mortality can drive the "average lifespan" either up or down dramatically.
That is why some of those countries without Western medicine have such low average lifespans.

If you take infant mortality out of the equation, they wouldn't have an average lifespan so low, it's basically the same as ours.
Medicine simply hasn't increased our lifespan by much at all. I think the recent data showed it's about 3 years.
It's a poor indicator of how good medicine is, you'd need to somehow measure quality of life, instead of quantity, coz three years is nothing special to boast about, especially if it's spent writhing in agony from
some advanced fatal disease which is simply being slowed for no reason.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

If they believe God provides the food that they eat... why doesn't God provide the doctor?

A religious man is stuck on the side of a cliff with rapids below.
A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!"
The religous man replies, "NO! I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later, another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again.
He responds that he has faith in god and god will save him.

Next, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in,
again, he again turns down the request for help.
He falls to his death.

He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter,
"I thought God would grant me a miracle and I have been let down."
St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you two boats and a helicopter."

Originally Posted by tommo

Government doesn't approve medicine. There are regulatory agencies which consist entirely of people either from the pharmaceutical industry, or with direct monetary ties to the pharmaceutical industry (i.e bribes).

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that some drugs don't get through approval simply because another rival company doesn't want it to.

Depends on the country. Which is why I disregarded the US. Countries with Adequate healthcare are applicable to my statement.

Australia has great healthcare and we still have pharmaceutical pawns in the TGA.

Originally Posted by tommo

Australia has great healthcare and we still have pharmaceutical pawns in the TGA.

America is not good at doing things well.

Take Social Security for example; Social Security is pretty simple: you take money from working folk. You give it to retired folk. Instead it's all being siphoned into the Defense Department and our wars... WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

This is hardly convincing evidence that new age medicine is more effective than "western medicine". Besides stomach ulcers are caused by a bacterium in the gut not stress. If stress is correlated in any way with the presence of ulcers, I would imagine that the evidence would be dubious at best; considering that people who have ulcers have a disposition to be effing stressed in the first place. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say.

I did the research into all available treatments, did you just google for five seconds to simply debate me? Ulcers are not caused by one reason and mines were not caused by bacteria. Stress can increase the amount of stomach acid being produced, and if there is no food in your stomach then its your stomach that gets burned. I knew that stress was the cause, as do many people prone to ulcers, because just being stressed would "burn" me up. But why should I have doubt because of an internet post? I experienced it. Did you?

[/quote]What is more beneficial to mankind: investing in "alternative health" treatments and preventions or investing in the research based medicine that has been integral to the extension of human life expectancy in the past 100 years?[/quote]

Investing into the curing properties of plant life is a thousand times more beneficial than researching into synthetic compounds that didn't exist during our evolution, and therefore have no place in our body. There is no reason why holistic medicine cant be research based. People have lived to 100 or more years long before we synthesized anything. You should instead be asking why life expectancy dropped in the first place.

Compare the average lifespan, in for instance Africa where some countries do not have direct access to pharmaceutical medicine with say Japan or even America and tell me their is no correlation between life expectancy and the access to western medicine?

Consult the chart


Life Expectancy, Food and Hunger, Access to Safe Water, AIDS, Population, and Human Conditions - Earth Web Site

Holistic healing or alternative medicine is dandy if that is what floats your boat but it is not a viable alternative to actual medicine.
Seriously now.

Why dont YOU consult the charts? Why aren't americans, the land of every medication, living to 120 years of age? Why has the healthcare sector been one of the largest growing sectors in america? Healthcare doesnt grow when people are healthy, it grows when people are sick.

Malnutrition. Dirty water. Poor living conditions. Crop failures.

Thats whats killing people. Not lack of access to western medicine. You forgot to ask why Africans are so sick to begin with. Holistic medicine isnt voodoo. Its philosophy is based in science. So yes, investing in preventive medicine is that much more worth it.

Western medicine takes a reductionist approach - heal the symptom. Holistic medicine doesn't see a symptom, it instead recognizes your being is composed of multiple systems that work together.

For example, my medication aimed to stop my stomach from producing acid because western scientists thought "well if the stomach stops producing acid then the ulcer wont hurt dur-hur". Brilliant! Whys my stomach making acid anyways, thats dumb! Stomach acid kills bacteria, as well as helps to digest my food - not that thats important I guess the food can just sit in my stomach festering. Taking the medication increased your risk of bacterial infection, which made absolutely no sense considering an ulcer is an open wound.

I turned to holistic medicine because it made more logical scientific sense, and it was tasty. Certain fruits and foods coat the lining of the stomach with oil, preventing the stomach acid from burning the ulcer. While other foods were the natural enemy of any bacteria known to irritate ulcers. I didn't have to disrupt the digestive process.

We need to start taking holistic medicine seriously rather than treating it like trash. Biologists and environmentalists agree, they believe many cures can be derived from plant life - if only we made the effort to protect plant life and earnestly study its properties. Do you know why Big Pharma tries so hard to fool westerners into thinking holistic medicine is silly and not worth studying? It all boils down to control and money.

What would Big Pharma rather say to a poorer nation? That crops you can grow can be transformed into medication? Or that only synthesized chemicals made in our fancy country, sold to you for a high ass price is the only thing that can save you.

By studying holistic medicines, we empower poorer nations to heal themselves.

Stormcrow you put me in a pickle by claiming marijuana is not alternative medicine. If I provide a peer-reviewed source to back up alternative medicine, by your definition, it would no longer be alternative medicine. I cannot answer your question based on your definition of the word. But I do have plenty of friends who have gotten cancer and the ones that took radiation very much regret not pursuing alternative methods. By my definition, anything against your doctor's recommendation is in the territory of alternative because you're alternating away from what you were told to do.

Originally Posted by juroara

I did the research into all available treatments, did you just google for five seconds to simply debate me? Ulcers are not caused by one reason and mines were not caused by bacteria. Stress can increase the amount of stomach acid being produced, and if there is no food in your stomach then its your stomach that gets burned. I knew that stress was the cause, as do many people prone to ulcers, because just being stressed would "burn" me up. But why should I have doubt because of an internet post? I experienced it. Did you?

No, I did not but apparently neither did you considering there are no peer-reviewed research papers asserting that the cause of ulcers is stress. Not a single one. If your “alternative doctor” suggested this then it is no surprise that he is not a certified MD. Yes there are several causes of ulcers but even with that in mind, stress is not a cause. It simply isn’t, it’s not my opinion either. Please provide an actual medical article that suggests this (ahh but of course medical science is a conspiracy right?).

Originally Posted by juroara

Investing into the curing properties of plant life is a thousand times more beneficial than researching into synthetic compounds that didn't exist during our evolution, and therefore have no place in our body. There is no reason why holistic medicine cant be research based. People have lived to 100 or more years long before we synthesized anything.

Are you aware that many “synthetic compounds” are naturally derived?

The reason why holistic medicine is not research based is because there is no evidence that its methods produce any kind of physiological effect that cannot be attributed to the placebo effect (and conformation bias). If tomorrow we discovered that homeopathic solutions did have a measurable, quantifiable effect on the human body it would not longer be “holistic medicine” it would simply be medicine. Until alternative medicine has passed the trial of empirical verification then it simply is junk, deal with it. If you want to meditate with healing crystals or burn herbs, that is your privilege but trying to undermine one of the most significant achievements of the human race, medicine, and peddling your snake oil in its place will not be tolerated without challenge from me.

Originally Posted by juroara

You should instead be asking why life expectancy dropped in the first place.

What the fuck?

Originally Posted by juroara

Why dont YOU consult the charts? Why aren't americans, the land of every medication, living to 120 years of age?

Is this real life?

Here is a better question, why don’t you have malaria?

Originally Posted by juroara

Thats whats killing people. Not lack of access to western medicine. You forgot to ask why Africans are so sick to begin with. Holistic medicine isnt voodoo. Its philosophy is based in science. So yes, investing in preventive medicine is that much more worth it.

Oh ok. So the fact that the infant mortality rate in America is lower than say Somalia is just a coincidence right? It has nothing whatsoever to do with access to western (gasp, materialist) medicine? Yes we should invest in preventative medicine, like vaccines. Do you think the reason why you do not have meningitis, malaria, measles, polio, etc is because you have a positive attitude or because you live a “holistic” lifestyle? Please, please answer this question.

“Why are Africans so sick in the first place?” Famine and disease from unsanitary living conditions and overpopulation? Ok but how does this in any way undermine the validity of western medicine? Holistic medicine is not even a step up from voodoo. If you think holistic medicine is just meditating, exercising and having a good diet then you are confused. All of these lifestyle choices do have a measurable physiological effect on the body and no doctor in the world would tell you to not engage in these activities. If we are talking about homoeopathy, healing crystal, prayer, etc then yes that is “alternative or holistic medicine” because there is no empirical evidence supporting them.

So do you or do you not feel that holistic medicine is a viable alternative to western, research based medicine? If you are suffering from a gunshot you would go to the hospital not pray, end of story. I don’t care if you are unwilling to admit it but you know this is true.

Originally Posted by juroara

For example, my medication aimed to stop my stomach from producing acid because western scientists thought "well if the stomach stops producing acid then the ulcer wont hurt dur-hur". Brilliant! Whys my stomach making acid anyways, thats dumb! Stomach acid kills bacteria, as well as helps to digest my food - not that thats important I guess the food can just sit in my stomach festering. Taking the medication increased your risk of bacterial infection, which made absolutely no sense considering an ulcer is an open wound.

Please share the name of this medicine. It made your stomach stop producing acid or stop producing so much acid? You did not specify. Stomach acid kills some bacteria but obviously there are species of bacteria that have evolved to live in acid, like the ones that cause ulcers. What medicine “increases your risk of bacterial infection” this is a bit vaugue.

Originally Posted by juroara

What would Big Pharma rather say to a poorer nation? That crops you can grow can be transformed into medication? Or that only synthesized chemicals made in our fancy country, sold to you for a high ass price is the only thing that can save you.

By studying holistic medicines, we empower poorer nations to heal themselves.

I am sure as shit not going to entertain a discussion on “Big Pharma” or any related conspiracy theories. If you have an issue with the way medicine is distributed to third world countries then that is another issue entirely and I don’t think we would have much disagreement there. But you are making the claim that not only is holistic medicine a viable alternative but also that western medicine is ineffective. Please demonstrate to me how this is the case, and I don’t care for anecdotal experience. I’m thinking more along the lines of actual research and peer-reviewed papers (Ill save you some time, there are not any).

It is fine if you believe in the validity of holistic medicine but trying to undermine research based medicine is misguided and futile.

There's little point in debating medicine with juroara. If you're looking for anything remotely based in fact and reality, you're talking to the wrong person. On the other hand if you're looking for staggering ignorance and batshit insane ideas...

The comment about synthetic verses 'natural' medication is gold though. It would be hilarious if the stupidity didn't make me so depressed. It reminds me of why I hold misanthropic tendencies towards most of humanity.

There was a woman I know in a village near me and her son broke his anke very badly and the doctors said there was a chance he wouldn't be able to walk properly again . She prayed incessantly for nearly two days. As she was praying her son got out of bed and said that his ankle was better. He jumped about to prove it. The doctors and radiographer at the hospital were reluctant to do an x-ray but because of the healthy state the boy was in they did an x-ray. Outcome was that the ankle was in a perfect condition...

This reminds me of something I read in the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

In this book, two guys, Phaedrus and John are going to take a motorcycle trip around the country. Phaedrus knows how to maintain his bike, but John does not, nor does he think it is important. John thinks everything will work out.

The author, Persig, teaches the reader a spiritual lesson drawing a corrolary to motorcycle maintenance. This has stuck with me for 25 years.

"What we have here is a conflict of visions of reality. The world as you see it right here, right now, is reality, regardless of what the scientists say it might be. That's the way John sees it. But the world as revealed by it's scientific discoveries is also reality, regardless of how it may appear, and people in John's dimension are going to have to do more than just ignore it if they want to hang on to their vision of reality. John will discover this if his points burn out.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

America is not good at doing things well.

Take Social Security for example; Social Security is pretty simple: you take money from working folk. You give it to retired folk. Instead it's all being siphoned into the Defense Department and our wars... WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT.

That's what Social Security is? I thought it was some sort of system so the government could basically know everything about you. For "security" purposes.
Wow, ok. lol

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Are you aware that many “synthetic compounds” are naturally derived?

And this is the major problem. They're not the original compounds. They always have to tweak them (usually pretty much randomly) until they find one which has the same effects and they can patent it.
Then they so "oh it's uhhhh.... safer, or some shit".

Originally Posted by stormcrow

The reason why holistic medicine is not research based is because there is no evidence that its methods produce any kind of physiological effect that cannot be attributed to the placebo effect (and conformation bias).

This is simply ridiculous. Just look at the evidence for psychedelics done in a traditional, ritualised setting. Can't get much more holistic than that.
And there's tonnes of proof for it.

Also, you can't just say it's no longer holistic if there's proof for it.
Holistic means it's more than just taking a drug to fix something.

For example in Homeopathy, the only thing proven to have an effect is the fact that the "doctors" who "practice" it spend 75% longer with their patients than GP's.
People need more than just a pill or a spray or whatever. Our feelings are directly connected to our ability to heal and feel healthy.
If GP's took this proof in to practice, (even though its not possible because of the shortage of doctors), they would also be practicing holistic medicine.

You have to stop thinking Juroara is a whackjob alternative-anything guy. He may well be, but just look at his arguments, separated from that.
The only thing I don't agree with is that "Western medicine heals the symptoms while holistic medicine looks at the body as a whole/cures the cause" absolute fucking bullshit.
I've heard that too much recently and it pisses me off, coz it's so far from the truth it's not even mildly funny to me.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

Here is a better question, why don’t you have malaria?

Dude.... Malaria does not exist in most countries. It's just because mosquitoes have not migrated here that carry Malaria.
Nothing to do with medicine.

Just thought those things needed my input.

Originally Posted by tommo

And this is the major problem. They're not the original compounds. They always have to tweak them (usually pretty much randomly) until they find one which has the same effects and they can patent it.
Then they so "oh it's uhhhh.... safer, or some shit"

Hello, Chemist here.

There are many reasons why a company would modify the structure of natural substances:

1) To try and discover a chemical that is even more effective / more stable / more soluble / better bioavailability / less toxic / fewer side effects, etc. There are a huge variety of properties that can be improved.
2) If you can replace certain parts of a molecule then it can greatly aid synthesis because you don't have to add protecting groups. Makes it much cheaper, quicker, and gives much higher yields, and it can make it much easier to achieve total synthesis. You want to know why so many anti-cancer drugs are so expensive for example? Because many are extremely complicated to produce, and in a variety of cases cannot yet be artificially produced. If they could be made synthetically it also makes it much easier to improve it further.
3) Yes, money also plays a part, but simply being able to make an effective product cheaply will get you a lot of profit. Drugs companies get a much higher profit margin on patentable drugs, but their cost is still heavily tied to how expensive they are to produce. Their demand is heavily tied to how effective it is compared to alternatives.

Drug development is a complicated process. Take a degree in Chemistry and you'll see why. Hell, even reading a few wikipedia articles on organic synthesis will give you an idea.

This also has a huge benefit to patients.

You have to stop thinking Juroara is a whackjob alternative-anything guy.

She is a nutjob who has gone on record many times arguing against scientific and evidence-based medicine, all whilst showing an abysmal knowledge of the subjects she attacks. Here's a good example which you actually liked back in the day, funnily enough. Did you forget all about this, or just change your mind, I wonder...

Ordinarily I wouldn't give a shit what such idiots do when it's their own personal choices, but when they start sprouting dangerous nonsense which can convince others who are ignorant then that's when it becomes a problem. You know one reason why so many get taken in by all the bullshit that's out there? Because there's so much of it that it's very easy to mistake it for real science when you're a layman.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Hello, Chemist here.

There are many reasons why a company would modify the structure of natural substances:

1) To try and discover a chemical that is even more effective / more stable / more soluble / better bioavailability / less toxic / fewer side effects, etc. There are a huge variety of properties that can be improved.
2) If you can replace certain parts of a molecule then it can greatly aid synthesis because you don't have to add protecting groups. Makes it much cheaper, quicker, and gives much higher yields, and it can make it much easier to achieve total synthesis. You want to know why so many anti-cancer drugs are so expensive for example? Because many are extremely complicated to produce, and in a variety of cases cannot yet be artificially produced. If they could be made synthetically it also makes it much easier to improve it further.
3) Yes, money also plays a part, but simply being able to make an effective product cheaply will get you a lot of profit. Drugs companies get a much higher profit margin on patentable drugs, but their cost is still heavily tied to how expensive they are to produce. Their demand is heavily tied to how effective it is compared to alternatives.

In a lot of cases, though it does not actually improve the drug. Take simple Aspirin for example. They just modified salisylic acid in to acetylsalicylic acid. It's not really better in any way. But they could patent it.

Same reason there's so many -diazepines. The original diazepam has proven to be superior.
I know that's not a natural compound, but just an example of modifying a compound slightly to patent it.

I do know about the cancer drugs that can't be synthesised, and I'm aware that some drugs are cheaper to synthesise. But a synthetic one is probably going to be the same as a natural one, there's no need to change it, except for the fact that you need to patent it.
I think you can patent a synthesis method, but it doesn't last as long?

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Drug development is a complicated process. Take a degree in Chemistry and you'll see why. Hell, even reading a few wikipedia articles on organic synthesis will give you an idea.

I have no doubt, and I was going to do that actually. Not anymore, but I have respect for how complicated and difficult it is for sure. Maybe not as much as you, but I have a fair idea.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

She is a nutjob who has gone on record many times arguing against scientific and evidence-based medicine, all whilst showing an abysmal knowledge of the subjects she attacks. Here's a good example which you actually liked back in the day, funnily enough. Did you forget all about this, or just change your mind, I wonder...

Oh, I slightly remember that. Cbf re-reading it all, but IIRC, I was just debating whether or not meditation worked for healing her/his ulcer. I think.
But as I see, she was basically blasting all of western medicine, which I definitely would take issue with. Especially criticising doctors as a whole, like they're the ones to blame for all the problems, or one bad doctor = all doctors are incompetent . I am very critical of Big Pharma and regulatory agencies (generally one in the same!) though.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Ordinarily I wouldn't give a shit what such idiots do when it's their own personal choices, but when they start sprouting dangerous nonsense which can convince others who are ignorant then that's when it becomes a problem. You know one reason why so many get taken in by all the bullshit that's out there? Because there's so much of it that it's very easy to mistake it for real science when you're a layman.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this.
But I try to criticise or agree with the points singularly.
And some of the points she/he raises are correct, whereas others are fucking insane.
However I can see how this could confuse laymen (not that I'm not a laymen, but people even more lay than me, anyway, lol ).

In a lot of cases, though it does not actually improve the drug. Take simple Aspirin for example. They just modified salisylic acid in to acetylsalicylic acid. It's not really better in any way. But they could patent it.

Salicylic acid is more irritating to tissue (it's used for chemical exfoliation of skin), and has a much higher risk of causing problems with the digestive tract such as bleeding, compared to aspirin. So it is actually better.

Will have to look at the rest of your post later.

EDIT:

Same reason there's so many -diazepines. The original diazepam has proven to be superior.
I know that's not a natural compound, but just an example of modifying a compound slightly to patent it.

Can't comment much without looking up the compounds in question but diazepam and its derivatives/analogues have a wide variety of uses. It's perfectly conceivable that pharma companies would change the structure to say, make it a better anticonvulsant.

But a synthetic one is probably going to be the same as a natural one, there's no need to change it, except for the fact that you need to patent it.
I think you can patent a synthesis method, but it doesn't last as long?

I don't believe you can patent chemical processes, but there are companies out there that don't release their findings and protect them as trade secrets. I seem to recall an example where this occurred with diamond chemistry.

If a drug offers the exact same performance as another except it comes with a large price tag, then who is going to buy it? They might patent it, but unless they can convince others to buy it - which requires some sort of benefit to the purchaser - then it's useless.

I'm not going to lie and say these companies don't care about money, or that they don't occasionally partake in unscrupulous behaviour, but for the most part they make an awful lot of money selling good products. Despite the kind of nonsense you hear from people like juroara about how these other cultures have amazing insights into medicine that our primitive western civilisation lacks, in actual fact many of those less privileged are screaming out for modern medicine. People in Africa don't want tribal medicine, or spiritual bullshit, they want modern drugs to treat diseases like TB and malaria... because they fucking work.