Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
Wrong - as I already explained it's not a positive claim against a god or gods, only a LACK of belief in them.

What's so hard about that?

If you still won't agree, then just call me an agnostic if it helps, though that only speaks about knowledge and fails to address belief at all.


Ok, example - let's say there's a room full of agnostics - they all agree that humanity can't currently know anything for a fact about god(s). Still some of those people would lean toward belief, some like yourself and myself would say "since we can't know then I have no belief one way or the other" (agnostic weak atheist), and some will say "Well maybe we can't really know for sure, but I strongly believe there are no gods and I'm ready to fight about it!" (agnostic strong atheist).

Oh, and yeah, I'll admit, sometimes I still slip back into agnostic strong atheism. Hey, old habits are hard to break! But I am trying.
Honestly, I really wanted to ask you the same question ("What's so hard about that?") when I first saw this post. I think we've been experiencing a major miscommunication up to this point. But I'm thinking, hopefully, that this example you added will help clear things up.

When I say "atheist", I don't mean agnostic strong or agnostic weak, or agnostic anything. I mean atheist, as in someone who will assert that there is no god for certain just as strongly as a theist will often assert that there is a god for certain. This is my perception of atheists because most of my atheist friends are like this. For me (heavy emphasis on that), there is no assumed agnostic, strong, or weak qualities. An atheist is just someone who strictly believes there is no god.

It sounds to me like, from your perspective, there is an assumed level of agnosticism in all atheists. I assure you that this is not the case, at least not when you know the people that I know, but with this in mind I think I can understand what you're trying to say much better. I've never personally come across someone who would fit the agnostic strong atheist definition you put. To me that just sounds like someone who is very confused lol. Or, a pure atheist in denial, not actually agnostic. Now, you say that you don't lean one way or the other, but you call yourself an agnostic atheist. To me, that sends the signal that you truly do believe that we can't be certain, but that you're inclined to lean toward believing that there is no god, my view of atheism, if you had to choose. But now it sounds to me like your definition of agnostic atheism is something I don't consider atheism at all, just pure agnosticism. This is the way that I feel - I've come to the conclusion that reality is so amazing that it really could go either way, that it could just genuinely be that incredible on its own because it must be simply to exist, or that it could have been designed by an omnipotent entity because it's so great that I would believe that too. Neither outcome would really surprise me at all. To me, it sounds simply wrong to call that view on atheist one, because a theist is someone who believes in a god. Therefore, an atheist, the opposite of a theist, should be someone who doesn't believe in god, not someone who's open to either possibility. I'm not saying that that's the universally correct way, that's just how I see it.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm really trying to get us on the same page here.