Thread: Can "GOD" be manipulated?

Originally Posted by Deanstar

Actually God clearly had Satan wrapped around his little finger, because God proved Satan wrong and ended up giving Job a lot more than he had before (including more glory) as well as taught Job and the rest of humanity an extremely valuable theological lesson about human suffering in the face of righteousness. If you read the book of Job it provides a very good explanation as to why good people have to suffer at all. That dispute is over when Satan lost that argument a long time ago. He lost the argument that we only do it for the reward, and he lost the argument that Good people shouldn't have to suffer. That's 2 birds in one stone. Pretty Good for being 'manipulated'. If I was satan and I had lost that dispute, I would realize I am now a lot worse off than before, he is the one that feels manipulated, he was used as a tool to demonstrate something. Even though those arguments are invalid today people still use them, just like people still believe in all kinds of false things because of a lack of education.

(I love how you say "lets pretend it's real" each time you start your argument. If it wasn't real you wouldn't have to mention it)

That is silly, why would God need to prove anything to Satan? Obviously Satan is just a plot device in that story. They needed a character to challenge god, so that he would have a reason to hurt his follower to prove his point. However, if you take it literally as if Satan and God were real people, then Satan clearly manipulated God into harming Job. Satan didn't win the argument but he did manipulate god into doing horrible things to his own follower.

Also that is pretty messed up that his wife and all his children died and god just replaced them. As if you can replace human that easily. Your child dies, you just have sex and make some more, no big deal right? That is a pretty twisted view of human life.

Also no, you are wrong. I said 'lets pretend it is real', because it isn't real and I don't want people getting weird ideas. Ideally I shouldn't have to say such thing when we are talking about obviously fictional characters, but some people mistake them as real characters.

Originally Posted by Alric

That is silly, why would God need to prove anything to Satan?

ah, God didn't 'need' anything from Satan. Satan was the one with the issues, he requested something of God (to have power over Job), which was granted. He asked if Job feared God for nothing.

Satan clearly manipulated God into harming Job. Satan didn't win the argument but he did manipulate god into doing horrible things to his own follower.

God wasn't afraid of Job being tested, neither was Job. Imagine if God said No. You would have an extra tissy fit and say all of God's followers are fake pussies cause they are never tested. This is how you roll. You and your double standards. When it's demonstrated that the loyalty is not fake through extreme suffering and pain. You complain that it was allowed to happen anyway. This is completely stupid you can't have it both ways.

Also that is pretty messed up that his wife and all his children died and god just replaced them. As if you can replace human that easily.

Everyone dies dude. If you have a problem with Job getting another wife. Then you also have a problem with everyone on this planet who's wife has died who has then remarried. Isn't it funny that you only have an issue when it suits you. You never complained about everyone getting another wife, until this argument comes up where you have to defend satan. lolz.

Also no, you are wrong. I said 'lets pretend it is real', because it isn't real and I don't want people getting weird ideas.

If you think it's not real. Then why do you feel the need to challenge the theology and the bible itself. Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie? That's not real, argue with that. There is a lot of batman fans, try and convince them batman isn't good or real. They will still be a batman fan. Why are you not threatened by that, but you are threatened by my beliefs.

Originally Posted by Aristocles

"Let's say God is not real; then who triggered the Big Bang ?".

You don't need to say "lets say God is not real" and people never say that. They just simply ask the question. What triggered the big bang? You never hear christians saying "lets say God isn't real" because that's not what they believe. Anyone that says that is starting with a faulty premise because God IS real, and you don't need to pretend he isn't, to make a good argument. In fact if you pretend he isn't real you are already defeating yourself as a christian. There is no possible gain from starting my argument like that.

I genuinely hope that you are intentionally writing in an equivocal fashion to simply be perverse, however, if you are serious then I can only hope disputation will facilitate some form evolution regarding your beliefs.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

If you think it's not real. Then why do you feel the need to challenge the theology and the bible itself. Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie? That's not real, argue with that. There is a lot of batman fans, try and convince them batman isn't good or real. They will still be a batman fan. Why are you not threatened by that, but you are threatened by my beliefs.

I can not help but wonder if you would concede that some subscribers of theology exploit it for personal gain (;a charlatan) or intentionally mislead the masses to obtain some kind of social conformity that they approve of.


What sincerely concerns me are those who would legislate on the basis of religious dogma - that to me is frightening. This is explicitly; reason enough to challenge any of whom; who would wish our country("ies") be governed by regressive theological dogmatism.

"Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie ? That's not real, argue with that." I can not allow you to get away with this one - this is directly why I made the above enquiry regarding your intentions. You have to be cognizant of the distinction between theology and that of Batman or Spiderman, though I agree they are all fictional and hold no bearing on the universe. Believing in a intervening personal god is proprietary, however you could imagine if members of our society actually believed in a crime stopping batman they would be stigmatize and rightly so. Majority of us; including you, do not believe in an actual batman or spiderman and I'll add that no politician is currently (;that I know of) legislating on behalf of batman.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

You don't need to say "lets say God is not real" and people never say that. They just simply ask the question. What triggered the big bang?You never hear christians saying "lets say God isn't real" because that's not what they believe. Anyone that says that is starting with a faulty premise because God IS real, and you don't need to pretend he isn't, to make a good argument. In fact if you pretend he isn't real you are already defeating yourself as a christian. There is no possible gain from starting my argument like that.

"You never hear christians saying "let's say God isn't real" because that's not what they believe" True - it is never usually framed this way ... I should not have framed it that way, but the statement still holds water "Who triggered the Big Bang ?" The very utterance of this statement is a concession (;not capitulation) from a theist.

Atheist - "God does not exist !"
Theist - "Oh, well then who triggered the Big Bang ?"

Very simple, but it gets my point across - the question inherently stipulates the non-existence of God. I'll add this to the question to clarify further "Oh, well then who triggered the Big Bang; if god does not exist". Theist use arguendo defensively while atheist typically use arguendo offensively .... enough said.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

ah, God didn't 'need' anything from Satan. Satan was the one with the issues, he requested something of God (to have power over Job), which was granted. He asked if Job feared God for nothing.

Read the story again, you can clearly see that God is very vain and Satan uses that to get God to do what he wants, multiple times. Even after God harms Job, and proves Job is good, Satan comes back and gets God and even more harm is done to Job. It is obviously God is doing all of this because he is vain and feels like he needs to show off and seek Satan's approval for some reason. He is clearly manipulated.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

God wasn't afraid of Job being tested, neither was Job. Imagine if God said No. You would have an extra tissy fit and say all of God's followers are fake pussies cause they are never tested. This is how you roll. You and your double standards. When it's demonstrated that the loyalty is not fake through extreme suffering and pain. You complain that it was allowed to happen anyway. This is completely stupid you can't have it both ways.

I wouldn't say anything of the sort. I have never said people had to be tortured to see if they were true followers, and I wouldn't call a person a pussy because they weren't willing to be tortured to prove a point. Also Job did question God and showed he wasn't entirely faithful any way.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

Everyone dies dude. If you have a problem with Job getting another wife. Then you also have a problem with everyone on this planet who's wife has died who has then remarried. Isn't it funny that you only have an issue when it suits you. You never complained about everyone getting another wife, until this argument comes up where you have to defend satan. lolz.

There is a huge difference between your wife dying naturally, and then moving on and getting a new wife, and someone murdering your wife then giving you a replacement. The murdering part is an issue, and the treating women as property part is an issue. Same thing for the children. You can't just treaty people like property and replace them and say it is good enough.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

If you think it's not real. Then why do you feel the need to challenge the theology and the bible itself. Why don't you challenge spiderman or the batman movie? That's not real, argue with that. There is a lot of batman fans, try and convince them batman isn't good or real. They will still be a batman fan. Why are you not threatened by that, but you are threatened by my beliefs.

I have done that before. There is a lot of people who will debate if Batman is good or evil, since his character can skirt around the law and depending on the comic/movie, he can be pretty dark some times. I would say he is generally a good guy, but there is definitely some depictions of him that might be more grey. I am not threaten with either things though, with their idea of batman or your belief in god. I am just describing what is in the bible, and it clearly says God was manipulated.