Thread: religious debate assessment

I don't think that God is indifferent to suffering but, I don't think he wants to dictate our lives for us either.

Yes, I think he can wipe away everything negative that we see in our lives but, I believe he gave us our lives to do with as we will.

I remember a saying I once heard (Some buddist munk or something.), "The pupose of life is not the destination but, the journy itself. I think perhaps suffering is necessary. We need the good with the bad. We need the trials and tribulation. If there were never any trials to overcome, problems to solve, or difficulties to master, I'm not sure one could call that living at all. Sounds like just existing. I think we need the full spectrum in order to have the opportunity to live a full life instead of just half of one. Duality is a function of life.

Or here's an interest twist. What if all that crap doesn't exist at all. No up no down, no good no bad, we just choose to see it that way.

Originally posted by willthepathfinder


Or here's an interest twist. What if all that crap doesn't exist at all. No up no down, no good no bad, we just choose to see it that way.

Not sure what you mean ,Will. Elaborate please. Sorry if I overlooked your meaning somewhere else in the thread. R.C.

Universal the problem is you are not trying to understand the truth of the bible or the real message within the religion at all.

Anything you ask about it I have a resonable explanation. Yet If you concerntrate on what is false all the time, while disregarding what is explained to you, or what is true about it,
It's going to be difficult to get past what is false, and your not going to see much else.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Universal the problem is you are not trying to understand the truth of the bible or the real message within the religion at all.

Anything you ask about it I have a resonable explanation. Yet If you concerntrate on what is false all the time, while disregarding what is explained to you, or what is true about it,
It's going to be difficult to get past what is false, and your not going to see much else.

It seems to me from what I have seen as far as religious topics and the like, people are not coming in to seek any truth. They are merely trying to question others and spread their "own" truth.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Universal the problem is you are not trying to understand the truth of the bible or the real message within the religion at all.

Anything you ask about it I have a resonable explanation. Yet If you concerntrate on what is false all the time, while disregarding what is explained to you, or what is true about it,
It's going to be difficult to get past what is false, and your not going to see much else.

Yeah, right. You have seen the persistence with which I have asked questions repeatedly, and you have seen the evasiveness I have gotten. Tangents and insults do not qualify as answers. I tried VERY hard for a while to get answers. I didn't get them. Refer to my initial post in this thread. I know you understand my #1 question. What is your answer to it? You said you don't believe in the Christian God, but now you are talking about how I need to look harder for answers about him. Can you give one to my question? You say my points about him make sense, but then you turn around and say that I am not giving the idea a chance. Which is it?

It is impossible for the God in Judaism/Christianity to exist. You know what my #1 reason for this belief is. I very much invite counter argument. But remember that talking about the rules an infinitely powerful being has to obey is illogical from the get go. For example, "He lets us be tortured so we will learn." An infinitely powerful being would be able to let us learn without being tortured. He could let us have 24/7 orgasms and make it where we learn even better. No boundaries. Get it?

Originally posted by universal mind
I know you understand my #1 question. What is your answer to it?

I guess you are refering here to the question. "Is god bound by any laws of reality"?
or "can an infinitely powerful being eliminate suffering and have a universe where suffering is not a problem?"

I answered this by explaining that god is not a single infinitely powerful entity that is seperate from ourself, that governs the rest of the universe. That is also not suppose to be the original message of christ.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed


I guess you are refering here to the question. \"Is god bound by any laws of reality\"?
or \"can an infinitely powerful being eliminate suffering and have a universe where suffering is not a problem?\"

I answered this by explaining that god is not a single seperate infinitely powerful entity that is seperate from ourself, that governs the rest of the universe. That is also not suppose to be the original message of christ.

I'm talking about the issue that is in all caps in the initial post, the one I compared to 2 + 2 = 4 and how all of the responses were things like, "3 + 3 = 6," and, "2 + 2 would not have to be 4, but if it were not 4, then it would be 4." The Christian idea of God involves two contradictory principles.

1. God is infinitely powerful.
2. God is not indifferent to suffering.

My point this entire time is that those two principles could not possibly exist simultaneously with suffering. I have yet to read a solid explanation of how my reasoning is incorrect. You said that you don't believe God is omnipotent (infinitely powerful), so why are you saying I need to give The Bible more of a chance? You don't believe it either.

Originally posted by universal mind
The Christian idea of God involves two contradictory principles.

1. God is infinitely powerful.
2. God is not indifferent to suffering.

ok first, know that the original seed of christianity or christ, does not involve the notion that there is a infinitely powerful defined certain entity that is seperate from ourself and the universe.

Now considering the potential of god is unlimited. We have to ask is 'gods' power really infinite? Can infinite or the infinite potential of god be reached when it is a progression of eternal evolution towards infinite understanding of truth?

Can infinite ever be reached? keep this is mind while we continue......

Second......You are the one that is judging suffering as a bad thing. But is it a bad thing if the results of this suffering far outweigh the sacrifice?

keep this is mind as I continue....

One of your points is you say that god should be able to do anything because there should be no limits being infinitely powerful.

Do we presently have the ability to even understand infinitely powerful? If it was possible?
If not we cannot say we understand a entity that is hypothetically infinitely powerful. If we don't understand this power, we also do not understand the use of this power as it is applied, or the reasons behind it. So we cannot judge decisions about what god has failed to do, or what has been done, when we don't even understand infinitely powerful or the situation or purpose behind the will of infinitely powerful. This is because we of ourselves are not infinitely powerful with our knowledge and wisdom. So therefore we cannot expect to understand the will of an entity who is. I am not saying here that god is infintely powerful. But I am using this as an example to explain that as understanding increases, so does consious perception and use of power. By this measure we cannot judge infinitely powerful, let alone understand it. This is one of the reasons you cannot say if god was infinitely powerful suffering would not exist.

While keeping all this in mind. Where does it say in the bible that god is infinitely powerful? God is eternally progressing and expanding towards infinitely powerful, with unlimited potential. but infinitey powerful doesn't seem to be something that can even be obtained. If it was, potential would be limited at a set point. But there is no set point at which the progression of god can stop. Because of what infinite means. Therefore it is eternal progression to infinite set point of power.

That means not even god as a whole understands or has infinite power, as god has been eternally evolving towards it.

It is not logical that infinite power can be obtained. God is never finished.
That is not the original christian message.

I gather with all your numbers in your initial post you are making the point that logic needs to be used. If anything I write here is not logical, please tell me how so, so I can explain or aknowledge a mistake, if it becomes evident I have made one, or something is not clear.

What if God was like a little kid who likes to burn ants with a magnifying glass?

Thats how i see it , i dont believe in God , but if there was one , the above statement could be used to describe him .

^ "God's just a kid with an ant farm."

From Constantine. Bad movie good quote.

Originally posted by bradybaker
^ \"God's just a kid with an ant farm.\"

From Constantine. Bad movie good quote.

Well i havent seen constantine before , i just came up with that myself . But its true in a sense .

I see by your moniker that you are a Son of Thoth. I am as well.

UM said: It is impossible for the God in Judaism/Christianity to exist. You know what my #1 reason for this belief is. I very much invite counter argument. But remember that talking about the rules an infinitely powerful being has to obey is illogical from the get go. For example, "He lets us be tortured so we will learn." An infinitely powerful being would be able to let us learn without being tortured. He could let us have 24/7 orgasms and make it where we learn even better. No boundaries. Get it?

There is only THE ALL. It is infinite in all three of its dimesions and infinite in time in both past and future. The All is the source of all Natural Law as everything is merely paint on the canvas of The All, even God Himself is the perterbation of the All by energy. Matter, as taught by Einstein, is a standing wave of energy upon the fabric of The All.

God cannot change the fundamental properties of The All. How energy, both radient and static, curves the surface of it is unchangable. The purpose of the cosmos is to perpetuate its existance over time by conforming to the fundamental law that cannot be changed.

The need to conform to the fundamental law, or the nature of The All, is a perogative of God. It will either sustain him from moment to moment, or it will disolve him over process of infinite time. He, and lesser forms of life, as well as greater forms of life (I am using the instance of the term God here to mean who the Christians call "Heavenly Father" or as the occultists refer to him, The Ancient of Days, or Sanat Kumara) must "progress" in order to keep stable upon the "surface" of The All. Spiritual progression fundamentally is for the purpose of retaining stability and continued existance.

If you are interested in why this is my opinion, as it is deeply metaphsyical, I suggest reading a vision given to a man I beleive to be a prophet, or representative of God, called JJ Dewey. Here is a link to a chapter of one of his books I base this opinion on (as well as my understanding of Hermetic sciences).

http://freeread.com/Book4/Eighteen.htm

(you can read other chapters by typing in the number of the chapter. Be sure to capitalize the first letter in the typed-out number.)

The reason why I explain it like this is to introduce and idea. Consciousness, or all forms of life, need to progress. To treat them as a "black box" for analysis's sake, you can look at individual units of consciousness (of which you, me, God, plants, animals) as sources of choice. In other words, stimulus is transmitted into the "black box", a mysterious process occurs where the stimulus is converted to choice, and is transmitted out of the black box to a mechanism that externalizes that choice. In other words, in human beings, moving arms, legs, vocalizing, etc. etc.

The "intelligence" of the black box in question is increased, or progressed, by "learning." Learning is only accomplished through a process of feedback, either positive or negative, or in the case of consciousness, painful or pleasurable. This feedback as interpretted by human beings is either the suffering of which you speak of, or the pleasure that all living things feels.

Without the feedback, the intelligence within the Black Box cannot increase. This is a logical fact, if it was otherwise, the computing mechanism in the black box would just stay static, or it would oscillate randomly outputing random choices.

It is core to the purpose of the Universe (that is to say the collection of units of consciousness and matter and energy) that there is an increase in overall intelligence. This intellegence is increased collectively through the exersize of correct choice (speaking on a statistical level here) and is what is abstractly referred to as "good". That which decreases the level of intelligence, or the collective capacity for correct choice (whatever "correct" choice may be) is what is most abstractly called "evil".

This is your answer to your previous question of why an infinitly powerful God cannot prevent suffering and simultaneously care about life suffering. The answer is that God "answers" to The All. God, I am sure, is actively involved in minimizing the painful consequences of choice (which reflects his desire for the minimum amount of suffering to occur within His domain), but fundamentally he is responsible, within his sphere of influence, for the survival of life and structure, and is therefore "bound" (assuming that He uses his own Free Will and level of intelligence to conform His Will with that of the Cosmos) to not permitting those things that interfere with the Universal Purpose.

UM said: You said you don't believe in the Christian God, but now you are talking about how I need to look harder for answers about him.

God is not Christian. Christ was only sent to the Jews and they, as a culture, rejected him. In a sense he is nobody's. More abstractly, God is merely who he is. There is much to be learned about him in any World Religion, Christianity included, however it is very possible for people to learn all there is to know about Him that is known to the Christians (or Hindus or Buddhists or whoever), and they must turn elsewhere in order to continue learning about him, his Will and how an individual may assist him in his Will.

In closing, you are correct, the "Christian God" or rather the Christian model of what God is, is lacking. The full knowledge of God is not contained in any religion, library or human mind. It is said that "When the student is ready, the teacher appears". UM, if you have found that you have "outgrown" religious beleif systems AND if you are sincere in your desire to know more, the teacher will appear. In what form, a book, a web site, a person, a vision from God, it matters not, but if you seriously desire to know, it will come, if you are looking for it.

[quote]

Isn't said that all men are created equal?
Then you could argue that men are physically superior, for the most part. I think there are a lot of holes in that theory Rev

True, but we're not talking about physical strength, We are talking about 'spiritual strength'...the two can't even come close to each other...Not by a long shot!

I think that this tread has taken on a form of its own having no real bases of truth, but only conjecture. With the underlying premise that God should do what man wants, when God has always done what He wants, ‘for the good of man.’ Even though there are those who object to the way in which He does it. This is the whole arrogant presumption that man is still expressing to God from the beginning, ‘you will do what I want, and you will do it now!’

Un be knows to man, God has set man as His representative in the world to do His will, and not man’s, ‘news flash’ man has no free will, so sit down, shut-up and take your licks! It is only an arrogant son who speaks back to the Creator of the super-verse, complaining about his conditions, when it is those very conditions which will bring him into a higher state of being in God, far beyond his wildest dreams.

So, to sit here and moan about life’s conditions, when man can do nothing to change them accept follow the Creator’s will to the letter, is counter productive irregardless of your religious beliefs.
So, please get over yourself, and deal with it.

The Rev.

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
I think that this tread has taken on a form of its own having no real bases of truth, but only conjecture.

And there-in is an accurate description of religion as a whole.

Originally posted by kimpossible


And there-in is an accurate description of religion as a whole.

You beat me to it !

Originally posted by kimpossible


And there-in is an accurate description of religion as a whole.

I hate to busted your bubble, but atheism is a religion as well...

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


I hate to busted your bubble, but atheism is a religion as well...

So you agree that religion has no real basis in truth, and is only pure conjecture?

Originally posted by bradybaker

So you agree that religion has no real basis in truth, and is only pure conjecture?

Your beliefs are as true as mine, and yours do not nullify mine, as mine do not nullify yours.

Belief is in ths 'eye' of the beholder...

Originally posted by Awaken4e1


Your beliefs are as true as mine, and yours do not nullify mine, as mine do not nullify yours.

Belief is in ths 'eye' of the beholder...

So, you're saying that belief is completely subjective, not representative of objective reality in any way shape or form?

Originally posted by bradybaker

So, you're saying that belief is completely subjective, not representative of objective reality in any way shape or form?

'representation of any objective reality' - is relative to the acceptance of the parameters in which that relatity exists.

Originally posted by Awaken4e1
'representation of any objective reality' *- is relative to the acceptance of the parameters in which that relatity exists.

Nope, that's subjective reality.

Originally posted by bradybaker

Nope, that's subjective reality.

subjective is objective to you, and objective is subjective to me...

WTF