The church as the true suppressor

[Howie]

Recently I had a disagreement that Leonardo Da Vinci was overrated. I became highly critical. For a number of reasons. 1. When something becomes mainstream (such as the Da vinci Code) it is often over thought and under worked. The mainstream jumps on like flies to a pile of shit. Leaving the true admirers frustrated, disheartened and saddened. In a recent post--> A man who not only was brilliant artistically but had the innovative mind to conceive things way before there time. Things like hydraulics, clocks digging machines, swing bridges Not to mention he was suppressed by the church and had been put under house arrest. If only he had been given funds and support maybe he could have finished some of his works. By the way. That is a typical trait with a brilliant mind. They consistently critique their own work and are never satisfied. Usually never following through with something we would call remarkable. To them it is a failure. Heaven forbid had the Church let the public become educated. They new that if that were to happen they would not be so easily brainwashed into believe the theatrics of their ways. Keep them dumb and keep control. The Church today has become civilized??? No not really. They still keep people under a Vail of conception. But because we have become a comfortable self sufficient society we have become complacent. With that complacency it allow us to put on a facade that we are more cultured and civilized. Civilized to the point that shooting a dog makes the headlines more than shooting a person. Is that civil? There is so much to discuss in regards to the church and its oppression my mind is spinning. And that is not even the main topic. Leonardo Da vinci. A man with several traits, not just a brilliant physicist or a master of design.

[W.Stanford]

[quote]There is so much to discuss in regards to the church and its oppression my mind is spinning. And that is not even the main topic. Leonardo Da vinci. A man with several traits, not just a brilliant physicist or a master of design. I agree, Howetzer. Da Vinci is one of my heros too. His works are a rather imperfect window into a mind and soul that had a depth that could not be probed, I think. The New Age will be one of "Light" I think, the spirit that Da Vinchi and many others who were filled with Light captured in their art, science and life's work. There was a purpose to struggling under the Jehovan concept of Order, but I think the future will be one of freedom and choice and in this I find a great hope of what may be. While I don't like to critize Leo V, for he is an insightful and senstive man, one of the things that rubs me the wrong way is his badgering of others who do not hold the Catholic mindset. What I mean by this is that the Catholic Church of today is not the same one as existed before those Renassance Men and Reformers. That the Catholics moan continually about the world going to hell in a handbasket is strange when you consider that their ranks are now filled with intelligent, free-thinking people who CHOOSE to worship in the Catholic fashion. But there is a time and a place for all things. The organized religions have had their time and purpose but I think that it is time to explore new opportunities to take what we learned from the contemplative (ie. monastic) and hopeful centuries of the last Age and press forward in our exporation of reality and Truth.

[Howie]

Originally posted by W.Stanford I agree, Howetzer. Da Vinci is one of my heros too. His works are a rather imperfect window into a mind and soul that had a depth that could not be probed, I think. The New Age will be one of \"Light\" I think, the spirit that Da Vinchi and many others who were filled with Light captured in their art, science and life's work. There was a purpose to struggling under the Jehovan concept of Order, but I think the future will be one of freedom and choice and in this I find a great hope of what may be. While I don't like to critize Leo, for he is an insightful and senstive man, one of the things that rubs me the wrong way is his badgering of others who do not hold the Catholic mindset. What I mean by this is that the Catholic Church of today is not the same one as existed before those Renassance Men and Reformers. That the Catholics moan continually about the world going to hell in a handbasket is strange when you consider that their ranks are now filled with intelligent, free-thinking people who CHOOSE to worship in the Catholic fashion. But there is a time and a place for all things. The organized religions have had their time and purpose but I think that it is time to explore new opportunities to take what we learned from the contemplative (ie. monastic) and hopeful centuries of the last Age and press forward in our exporation of reality and Truth. How did you know I was talking about Leo? I still believe there is a lot of corruption today in Catholic church. But you tend to only see the bad. So it would be similar to bash the catholic religion on the few bad things you here from the media that wants headlines. As to bash Da Vinci for not finishing a few paintings.

[W.Stanford]

When people think about me they think of Da Vinci. When people think about Leo V they think of the Catholics. Just the way things work, old chum

[Neruo]

If the church wouldn't have been so anti-science the last 2000 years, we would have had the technology we now might have in 2150. The church is like a big child, they don't want to hear any critisism, and if they do they kick you in the nuts. Leo Da Vinci was a genious. Incredible how much talents that man had. How he just saw how a human body worked. In that time people did hardly knew how muscles and shit worked. Yet he just 'saw' / ' knew' it. He allso invented alot of stuff. Allso the thingy allmost all cars have, a ' differential' (at least thats how it's called in dutch.). He invented the basical principles of a helicopter. He was a great painter. Leonardo = homo unversalis. (besides being actually being a fag, homo unversalis is latin for like 'Man of the universe' . Like with alot of skills. An ubermesch. Yay 4 leo.

[Roller]

Hmm an interesting point... Da Vinci is one of my hero's as well, and the whole publicity over the Da Vinci Code kinda detracts from the man himself and what he achieved (it seems people are more interested in finding conspiracies than learning how he treasured life). I read a book How to Think Like Da Vinci a while ago, and it changed me in lots of ways, changed how I thought about life. Anyway there is no doubt as to his genius, but as to whether the church supressed him with the distinct intention to stop him from creating I'm not so sure. Yes, he did have a few disagreements with the church, but back then so did everyone that was of reasonable intelligence. I don't think the church has ever had a definate intention to supress people's education to keep them 'dumb masses', they just don't like change. If you look at any large orginisation (governments, churches etc,) most of them are scared of change, because with change comes the prospect that they might not still have the power they enjoy. The same still happens today with many scientists - a new, radical idea is presented to the scientific community and laughed at simply because it is so different... the same with many of Da Vinci's creations. Not many back then had the vision to deal with some of his brilliant ideas.

[Leo Volont]

So, we have somebody who thinks the Church is a Suppressor. Well, think about this. Who or What other Institution will offer to support both men and women in a Life of Religious and Spiritual Contemplation. Now, nobody complains more about the Bishops than I do, but it needs to be understood that when we speak of the Church, then we must keep in mind ALL of the Church's Institutions. And when looks at the Church, as a Whole, then one must consider that the great number of Religious Orders have been profoundly and effectively fertile in enabling those of a spiritual disposition to achieve their spiritual potentials. Indeed, the great success of the Catholic Church, and where the Catholic Church rises above the other Higher Religions, despite its doctrinal errors, is in the Organization and Maintenance of its Religious Orders. What we have is tens of thousands of people on the Church Payroll (not getting much but not needing much) whose only job is to strive toward Sainthood. Buddhism still maintains some Orders. Hinduism has some Religious Professionals but many of these must compromise themselves with begging verging on pandoring to popular demands. Islam has some Sufi Sects, but it is debatable just in what degree the Sufi Orders are actually entirely Islamic or are traceable back to Zoroastrianism. Jews have sects but no fulltime Religious Orders that I know of. In regards to supporting Full Time Religious Aspirants, no Organization on Earth comes close to the level of sponsorship and patronage that is put forward by the Catholic Church. Now, tell us again that the Catholic Church is a Suppressor. It would seem to me that no Organization is a better Enabler of Spirituality.

[Neruo]

But the church does suppress people spiritualy Leo. An average (american) chistian would say Lucid Dreaming is 'evil' too. Just accepting one story, one way, one view of the world is not spiritual. Spiritual is about yourself, about your own mind and about looking around you and seeing there is more... you know. Not like this blinded christian: 'Our way or the highway' stuff. That, and the church still suppresses woman. You can't deny that. Maybe alot of people will deny it. But I don't know why just about every saint and powerfull person in the vatican is a man.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

The church is always a million miles away from logic and truth, this is no myth. I agree completely, Leonardo was an incredible man who thought so many years after his time. We've built the first robot due to his fascinating scripture. This man is so ingenius and talented it still amazes me. The church supresses humans in every single way; spiritually, psychologically, physically... everything. They try to limit everybody's freedom based on their beliefs, which are so far off from reality it's striking. Everything they haven't heard of is incorrect by their standards. They are close-minded, destructive, petty tyrants and hypocrites. They influence the media, politics and try to conquer every source of power. What we need is a dark age! Then out of the ashes, in our reincarnated rennaissance, we'll hopefully sprout a few more ingenius men and women such as Da Vinci. Isn't it incredible we aren't already dwelling in radioactive rubble?

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten What we need is a dark age! Wait, you mean we aren't in one already?

[Chainsaw Kitten]

What I mean by a dark age is something that wipes out a large ammount of the population and opens their eyes.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Leo Volont So, we have somebody who thinks the Church is a Suppressor. Well, think about this. Who or What other Institution will offer to support both men and women in a Life of Religious and Spiritual Contemplation. Now, nobody complains more about the Bishops than I do, but it needs to be understood that when we speak of the Church, then we must keep in mind ALL of the Church's Institutions. And when looks at the Church, as a Whole, then one must consider that the great number of Religious Orders have been profoundly and effectively fertile in enabling those of a spiritual disposition to achieve their spiritual potentials. Indeed, the great success of the Catholic Church, and where the Catholic Church rises above the other Higher Religions, despite its doctrinal errors, is in the Organization and Maintenance of its Religious Orders. What we have is tens of thousands of people on the Church Payroll (not getting much but not needing much) whose only job is to strive toward Sainthood. Buddhism still maintains some Orders. Hinduism has some Religious Professionals but many of these must compromise themselves with begging verging on pandoring to popular demands. Islam has some Sufi Sects, but it is debatable just in what degree the Sufi Orders are actually entirely Islamic or are traceable back to Zoroastrianism. Jews have sects but no fulltime Religious Orders that I know of. In regards to supporting Full Time Religious Aspirants, no Organization on Earth comes close to the level of sponsorship and patronage that is put forward by the Catholic Church. Now, tell us again that the Catholic Church is a Suppressor. It would seem to me that no Organization is a better Enabler of Spirituality. I never did say specifically that the the Catholic Church in particular was the suppressor. But you would indeed be the one to be presumtuous and think that catholicism was being attacted. I kept my post open to "church" But to make it more clear as you asked; "Now, tell us again that the Catholic Church is a Suppressor." > The Catholic Church is a Suppressor! What I had taken out of your post was a list of religions that seemed to be in order of Organization. You never rebutted how this organization occurs. Not an organization as a group, an organization in context of pertaining to order. How did they keep this order? They would resort to suppressing people. If you want more detail, thern sure I can belittle organized religion a little more, if you wish. Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten What I mean by a dark age is something that wipes out a large ammount of the population and opens their eyes. Like Aids? What we need is quite the opposite. A renaissance!

[InTheMoment]

[quote] What we need is quite the opposite. A renaissance! Or mo' naked hoes. ~

[Chainsaw Kitten]

The renaissance was triggered by a dark age, let me remind you. AIDs gets the people who have the least chance at making a difference, sadly, mainly many poor people from developing countries. I've been in Africa, seen it myself. These people are strong willed and intelligent, however they can't prepare themselves to thwart these horrible diseases in their current situation.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten The church is always a million miles away from logic and truth, this is no myth. I agree completely, Leonardo was an incredible man who thought so many years after his time. We've built the first robot due to his fascinating scripture. This man is so ingenius and talented it still amazes me. The church supresses humans in every single way; spiritually, psychologically, physically... everything. They try to limit everybody's freedom based on their beliefs, which are so far off from reality it's striking. Everything they haven't heard of is incorrect by their standards. They are close-minded, destructive, petty tyrants and hypocrites. They influence the media, politics and try to conquer every source of power. What we need is a dark age! Then out of the ashes, in our reincarnated rennaissance, we'll hopefully sprout a few more ingenius men and women such as Da Vinci. Isn't it incredible we aren't already dwelling in radioactive rubble? Very well put. I missed your entire post. I just caught the Quote. Sorry! As far as Aids in Africa. How intelligent can they be. It is called safe sex. Not a hard concept to conceive. Then they would not have to combat it. no?

[Chainsaw Kitten]

The average African earns less than two dollars a day. Not only do they barely have any condoms or contraceptives to give around, but if they did, how could they possibly afford them? Sadly the African government is very very corrupt. Just look at Mugabe. There's not much we can do about this, sadly. Interfering makes it even worse. Giving these people money is like tipping it down a drain. Even if a few families are able to survive on what you give them for a month, what do they do after? It's just like the story of the man who is given enough fishes for a month, so he can survive on that. Once he has no more food, there's nothing he can do. And all the money invested in the African government just goes to waste. They don't know what they're doing. Bleh.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by InTheMoment Or mo' naked hoes. ~ I'll second that.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten The renaissance was triggered by a dark age, let me remind you. I think by dark age you mean the plague (or what you are now advocating, a nuclear war), but even that I wouldn't consider being the trigger for the renaissance. I think of it more as one of the many things that allowed it to happen, along with the Arabs and Persians keeping all the Greek writings intact and founding modern science, mathematics, and medicine, along with the fall of Constantinople, along with the printing press, along with... So you would agree with me that we are in the dark ages now? Not in anything like science of course, but in the collapsing vectors of human consciousness, definitely.

[Boris]

Look guys, this is only a very small part of the problem. It's much bigger than this. But I'm glad some people are becoming aware of it somewhat.

[ravenqueen]

[quote] Very well put. I missed your entire post. I just caught the Quote. Sorry! As far as Aids in Africa. How intelligent can they be. It is called safe sex. Not a hard concept to conceive. Then they would not have to combat it. no? I love you dearly but I could reach through me screen and choke you for that comment. If the women of Africa had more resources first off most would not be having sex to make a living and alot of the men they sleep with refuse to let them use protection when it is available. Young girls that have no choose are sold into being sex slaves. The outbreak of AIDS there is beyond most can phantom and it is due more to poverty then it is to safe just sex.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Howe As far as Aids in Africa. How intelligent can they be. It is called safe sex. Not a hard concept to conceive. Then they would not have to combat it. no? I put the blame squarely on the church for the AIDS epidemic in Africa. We tried to give them contraceptives and such, the church freaked out and put a stop to it.

[Howie]

Originally posted by ravenqueen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ravenqueen)</div> I love you dearly but I could reach through me screen and choke you for that comment. If the women of Africa had more resources first off most would not be having sex to make a living and alot of the men they sleep with refuse to let them use protection when it is available. Young girls that have no choose are sold into being sex slaves. The outbreak of AIDS there is beyond most can phantom and it is due more to poverty then it is to safe just sex.[/b] I was not pointing my finger or signaling out the woman or blaming the woman. You make a good point though. I know there is a lot of corruption that goes on. And I apologize for generalizing as I did. But I still have no answer to how smart can they be. Blame it on what ever you want, the men, the government. But if they are aware that it is a sexually transmitted disease (Which may be the issue*) then affording a condom would not be an issue. It is a terrible environment in Africa. Maybe ignorance has a lot to do with it. But if indeed they are aware, as I said, that AIDS is caused from sex. I don't think that they would make the decisions they do. And if Brady is correct <!--QuoteBegin-BradyBaker I put the blame squarely on the church for the AIDS epidemic in Africa. We tried to give them contraceptives and such, the church freaked out and put a stop to it. Then this would reiterate the point of the initial discussion.

[kichu]

Originally posted by Howetzer As far as Aids in Africa. How intelligent can they be. It is called safe sex. Not a hard concept to conceive. Then they would not have to combat it. no? Wow, are you serious? Read up a little on the issue and then come back here in a month and see if you can make the same statement. Wow.

[Neruo]

[quote] As far as Aids in Africa. How intelligent can they be. It is called safe sex. Not a hard concept to conceive. Then they would not have to combat it. no? Qoute from a movie: Why be afraid of something that can kill you in 10 years if you can die numerous times Every day? I think becouse all the poorness and such peolpe just don't care about such a small thing like aids. Then it bites them in the ass. Anyway I don't think africans don't use condoms becouse they are less smart then us or something else (that is not prooven). I don't know or I would care about aids if I lived in a house made of old wood and plastic sheets, and had no clean water or good food. Allso, alot of africans are christian... and the chruch is often against the use of condoms... I guess the church killed atleast 10 million becouse of that. 100 milion in the future. I say: Just make sure africans have enough comdons, make sure they Know what are the dangers, makes sure the fucking pope keeps his mouth shut, and let them choose from themselves. =)

[Howie]

Originally posted by kichu Wow, are you serious? Read up a little on the issue and then come back here in a month and see if you can make the same statement. Wow. To hell with being politically correct! What is just the USA up to now in combating AIDS just in Africa. 60 million? And look at the Continent as a whole. Every other division of man has found a way to better themselves. Why are they, century after century still in the same poor condition? All cultures went through hard times. They learn and move on. We all have life so easy that we put up our big egos and state that it is a fault of something other than what it is. If we were in hard times we could give two shits about Africa!