Suicide!

[dattaswami]

Suicide!!! This human life is very rare. Next human birth is still rare. The ignorance of real aim of the life leads to thoughts of suicide due to tensions created in this unreal drama. Will any body kill himself or herself really on the stage while acting a drama? Is he or she not a fool? Is he or she not mad? Suppose a student is defeated in cricket game and commits suicide. Is he or she not mad? Suppose a student is defeated in cricket game and commits suicide. Is he not a fool? The game itself is a side activity meant for a change. This worldly life is just a side activity and one should not get even tension in this worldly life, not to speak of suicide! At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami Anil Antony www.universal-spirituality.org Universal Spirituality for World Peace [email protected]

[Leo Volont]

It surprises me whenever an Orientalist comes out bemoaning Suicide. Do we not hear all the time Liberation Liberation Liberation. Give up Desire. Give up the Ego. Give up the Self. Well, duh. Does not Suicide do all of the Perfectly? Is there a better way to give up desire and give up self but to 'pull the plug on one's self'? I think more of the Gurus would advocate Suicide as the best of all Liberations techniques, except that the dues and membership fees would dry up, and while Liberation is such an ideal for the followers, the Gurus themselves seem to meditate much upon the financial bottom line.

[dattaswami]

It surprises me whenever an Orientalist comes out bemoaning Suicide. Do we not hear all the time Liberation Liberation Liberation. Give up Desire. Give up the Ego. Give up the Self. Well, duh. Does not Suicide do all of the Perfectly? Is there a better way to give up desire and give up self but to 'pull the plug on one's self'? I think more of the Gurus would advocate Suicide as the best of all Liberations techniques, except that the dues and membership fees would dry up, and while Liberation is such an ideal for the followers, the Gurus themselves seem to meditate much upon the financial bottom line. [/b] Leo Volont; We have no right to take our own life. This human life is very precious, and in the next life, human birth is not gaurenteed. Lord has given us this human life for a very important thing, it is to realise Him, by serving Him in His mission of divine knowledge propagation. All other activities in this world are only a side activity in this respect. We should not get enganlged in the side activity. It is like enjoing a game, while keeping our eye on the main aim. Main aim is to please Lord, through selfless service. But, unfortunately people have mis understood the side activity as the main activity and are entangled in those, with out even having time to think about God. Remember that in this temporary world all our family relations are temporary only. One day or the other these relations will vanish. One should be very cautious not to over indulge in these family bonds. Only thing is that, one should do his repsonsibility to them without any mental attachment and should divert most of his time in meeting the main aim of life which is pleasing the Lord. Lord comes in every human generaiton in human form for uplifting the souls of this world. He is known as human incarnation. This is the only way to please Lord. The unimaginable Lord has taken human form and move in this generation for the propgation of divine knowledge. Pleasing Him is by participating in the mission. He gives divine knowledge without any partiality to every body alike. Shall we use this golden opportunity to directly involve in His service? Why should one loose his precious life which is very very rare to obtain, by silly suicide? Is it not the high time that we should reduce our side activity and channelise it towards God?

[Jalexxi]

Originally posted by dattaswami We have no right to take our own life. If a supernatural entity places us upon this world with a set of things we can and cannot do (think laws of physics, biological nature, etcetera), then proceeds to provide a manifold of conflicting rules in this world which of the remaining things we can do we actually should do, I ask myself some questions. One, if we are not to do something, why not make it impossible in the first place? Two, if we are not to do something, why not make this very clear instead of providing a myriad of interpretations to ethics? In my opinion, that particular supernatural entity has no right to give us options without any clear instructions, and then proceed to condemn us for taking certain actions of which we did not (and could not) know they were wrong.

[Original Poster]

Indeed in actuality we have the right to do everything we are capable of doing, it's just a matter of other people having the right to stop us, because they believe they should. Although, Jalexxi, the argument an exclusive-religious personw ould give is that God wishes to test you, or that Satan makes it avaiable in order to corrupt you.

[Dangeruss]

don't rag on suicide. If life is more bad than good, then there is only one rational decision to make. Of course we have the right to take our own life. Our life is all we have in this world, and to forfeit control of it is to forfeit one's own humanity. I think letting someone or something else decide whether or not you should live is much worse than suicide. No man has truly lived unless he did so on his own terms. No man has died a respectable death unless he did so on his own terms.

[Jalexxi]

Although, Jalexxi, the argument an exclusive-religious personw ould give is that God wishes to test you, or that Satan makes it avaiable in order to corrupt you.[/b] Indeed, but then again, which of the Gods? Which of the Satans? There's no objective reason that one religion is better then the others. If there was one religion that was clearly the right one (I don't know how that would be like, but let's suppose there is one), and all the other religions were just fraught with temptation, then they'd have a case. But in this world, there's no religion that's objectively better then the others. So how do you know what temptation to resist? Awnser, you don't and can't know. Thus, any punishment you receive for being wrong would be unjust, as it was through no fault of you that you made the mistake. But that's the same argument repeated.

[Original Poster]

Now that that's been handled, you know Camus said the ultimate philosophical question is "Is life worth living." and he answered, invariably, that yes, it is worth living, and depicted this answer through the metaphor of sisyphus, a man who painlessly enjoyed the fruits of life for a good amount of time and once his time ran out and he was caught, was forced to roll a boulder up a hill for eternity. Camus imagined Sisyphus was a happy man, for though all labour on life, from an existentialist point of view, is fruitless since you die anyway, it is the nfruit that comes from living that makes that labour worth it. The good is worth the bad even though in the end you come up with nothing.

[M.D]

Anil Antony, even if I disagree with your point, I love your diction. Really, it's like a breath of fresh air. hi5 . Too bad you've already been banned. Committing suicide due to tensions created in real life is dumb. It should be completely avoided. However, that's not always the case. Take the case of a man who endures clinical depression which deprives him of any joy in life. He is hospitalized so that he may not take his own life, and for decades is treated with no success. At some point, is it humane to force him to live in that way, when he is a rational person who has decided intelligently that he wishes to die? I think it's reasonable to say that's the case. Furthermore, take the example of an intellectual, perhaps someone who has a PhD in philosophy and has written many acclaimed books, who has believed for many years that there is rationally no reason for him to live, and that life is arbitrary. Could you dismiss his desire as ignorant so easily? Perhaps you believe that those people just possess ignorance to the real aim of life, as you mention, however. If that's the case, you should justify that in more detail. Err, wait, you can't. Whatever the case, I don't think you can trivialize what some people go through as ignorance. By the way, I became more enlightened about suicide (well, I was already "pro-choice" on the matter abstractly speaking although of course I haven't been able to think of a way to practically legalize suicide) when I read the ASH FAQ at http://ashbusstop.org/home.html , which is where I became familiar with the issues involved and was able to follow philosophical analyses , FYI.

[Wolfie]

We have no right to take our own life. [/b] I am of the belief that you are the only thing is yourself. If you can't make decisions about your own life, what can you make decisions about?

[Howie]

Feel suicidal and then see if you hold the same opinions. No one asks to feel that way. Perhaps you believe that those people just possess ignorance to the real aim of life, as you mention, however. If that's the case, you should justify that in more detail. Err, wait, you can't. icon_confused.gif Whatever the case, I don't think you can trivialize what some people go through as ignorance.[/b]

[icuurd12b42]

Ask an old man on his death bed who was told over and over again "Be patient, it'll will get better" and it never did, he'll tell you "Man, if I had known, I'd have killed myself a long time ago". Of course, if your life is generally a good one then suicide makes no sence. If you are one of the people that things never ever get any better. I mean the only good thing that ever happened to them was being born and it got progressivelly worst each year after that then you have to ask yourself why stay here. But of course, there is always hope that things will get better. The only time you can be sure it wont is when there is no futute (Death bed). At that point, it is a safe bet that suicide is a good thing but then again, at that point, your are already dying.

[Howie]

Ask an old man on his death bed who was told over and over again "Be patient, it'll will get better" and it never did, he'll tell you "Man, if I had known, I'd have killed myself a long time ago". Of course, if your life is generally a good one then suicide makes no sence. If you are one of the people that things never ever get any better. I mean the only good thing that ever happened to them was being born and it got progressivelly worst each year after that then you have to ask yourself why stay here. But of course, there is always hope that things will get better. The only time you can be sure it wont is when there is no futute (Death bed). At that point, it is a safe bet that suicide is a good thing but then again, at that point, your are already dying. [/b] Both you, me and a few others obviously feel similar. When you add religion to the mix it then provides an entire different observation - going to hell, sinning for doing so, a temporary (miserable life) etc. So if you are coming from a religious point of view then your argument makes sense. I guess we are all to have the resolve of Job.

[icuurd12b42]

So if you are coming from a religious point of view then your argument makes sense. I guess we are all to have the resolve of Job.[/color] [/b] If I realized I was nothing more than God's meat puppet made to suffer for His and His ID's amusement, I would try my best (or worst) to exit His play in such a way that there would be no chance of ever being hired as His actor ever again... I don’t like being fooled… Though, I don’t know if suicide is the answer to this conundrum. The suicide thing raises many issues about afterlife promises made by various religious groups and why you should live a life that will actually get you there. I’ll stick with the ones that Christianity (Catholic to Born Again) tried to sell me as it is the one I was raised as. Note that I do not promote suicide by any means as I write the following. Now, there are a few things that got me wondering from a young age about the validity of the Christianity after life (I mean the whole thing was so full of flaws a 9 year old could see that… or was it just me). I came to the following conclusions when I was 9. That was eons ago. I still wonder why this resurfaces over and over again. When I was told that good people go to heaven and bad ones go to hell, well, I got to wonder what defines good people and bad ones as I noticed the people who said this were actually very bad people. Second, the scripture said that only 144000 people will actually go to heaven. So, what were my chances as I was sure there was at least that many people in the clergy so that meant my chances were very slim. So why try… But I did anyway. Later, instead of heaven, I was promised eternal life… Well, for someone who’s life is a living hell (even when doing “the right things”) then such a promise is, well, damning. As far as suicide being a sin and going to hell for it, well, based on the above reasoning, who cares! Either we are all going to hell or we are all doomed to stay here. As a Catholic, the only rules I need to follow are the ten commandments and it does not state “I shall not commit suicide”, though, “I shall not kill” could be used as a derivative. Since after issuing the ten commandments God stated that any other law would not be of Him, any other man defined law derived from the bible are invalid (Including suicide IMO) or a least, not laws enforced by God. Since sinner means “Law Breaker” and the only sin against God is breaking his commandments and since “I shall not commit suicide” is not a commandment then I would never equate a suicide victim as a sinner damned to hell. I mean, come on ppl. The logic is that simple. If you say that “I shall not kill” is a commandment that should also include suicide, well, my rebuttal would be that “I shall not kill” was proposed as is. It does not say “I shall not kill people”. So, if you have killed, period, you are a sinner dammed to hell. Isn’t that a bitch. We’ve all killed, I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. Lastly, and here’s the kicker, If Jesus Christ died on the cross to save mankind from all it’s sins then why are we talking about sinners going to hell in the first place. Well, we didn’t exactly say that here but I’m sure the thought came to mind. So, having all my grounds covered (I think), If I choose to quickly end my miserable life (truly the only time I would have full control of my life), it is no “entities”’ right to claim I had no rights to do so by any means. I mean, if you’re in theatre watching a bad movie, it is your right to leave, no? So, if there is an after life, I don’t think suicide would really prevent it from happening though the uncertainty keeps us wondering and keeps us here. One thing about suicide victims: Maybe they are life cowards as some may imply. On the other hand, they are very brave to face the ultimate truth as the rest of us stay here wondering, scared out of our wits about death hoping for a better future… Anyway, my previous post pretty much sums up the full extent of the reasoning. You’ll never know if it could have gotten better if you leave too soon. You’ll only know you should have left at the end. What comes after is uncertain so that is why you should stay. You don’t have to be religious to understand the concept of the thought.

[King and God]

I despise suiciding myself. I think it is an act of cowardice if done to escape misfortune. If done to save someone close or do something noble, then I think it is okay. By the way, why has this guy been banned?

[Leo Volont]

I despise suiciding myself. I think it is an act of cowardice if done to escape misfortune. If done to save someone close or do something noble, then I think it is okay. By the way, why has this guy been banned? [/b] Cowardice. Hypocrites love that word "cowardice". For instance, we learn from every high placed hypocrite in the West that Terrorists are 'cowards' for risking and even giving their lives for their People. Cowardice indeed. Now we hear that people who can discern that no further good can come from living, but only more harm to friend, family and associates... we have to hear that these people are "cowards" for doing essentially what amounts to the Best Thing for everybody concerned. Maybe you should become a Republican Speech Writer.

[icuurd12b42]

I also agree that calling a suicide victim a coward is a moronic statement. I mean I know very little people that would actually have the courage to perform such an act. I know more people who have the courage to go beat up a coward but these people would never have the courage to perform the act. I mean if you were told that you must die, would you have the courage to do it yourself or would you ask someone to kill you instead. The truth is life is much easier to live through than death if you only do the bare minimum for survival.

[acheron]

I had no choice about being concieved. My life was thrust upon me and I had no say in the matter. To say that if I so desired I couldnt end it seems like a big step on my freedom. I always thought that once i reached a certain age id kill myself because the quality of life didnt balance the effort ill have to put up to live. Some people may tip that balance not because of old age but who knows what else. Who the fuck is anyone to tell someone they cant kill themselves? Its my life. Not anyone elses. If I no longer wanted it it would be hell not being able to end it.

[Leo Volont]

I had no choice about being concieved. My life was thrust upon me and I had no say in the matter. To say that if I so desired I couldnt end it seems like a big step on my freedom. I always thought that once i reached a certain age id kill myself because the quality of life didnt balance the effort ill have to put up to live. Some people may tip that balance not because of old age but who knows what else. Who the fuck is anyone to tell someone they cant kill themselves? Its my life. Not anyone elses. If I no longer wanted it it would be hell not being able to end it. [/b] This reminds me of many of the European Existentialists who became so extremely mechaniistically deterministic -- believing that they had no free will about anything... that every choice was already made by the workings of their brains.. no real spiritual freedom in that, that they decided their only possible expressionof Freedom was to kill themselves. Well. Materialists! Served them right. Bad Philosophies will turn around and bite you.

[King and God]

Cowardice. Hypocrites love that word "cowardice". For instance, we learn from every high placed hypocrite in the West that Terrorists are 'cowards' for risking and even giving their lives for their People. Cowardice indeed. Now we hear that people who can discern that no further good can come from living, but only more harm to friend, family and associates... we have to hear that these people are "cowards" for doing essentially what amounts to the Best Thing for everybody concerned. Maybe you should become a Republican Speech Writer. [/b] Again, re-read... Written by me. I despise suiciding myself. I think it is an act of cowardice if done to escape misfortune. If done to save someone close or do something noble, then I think it is okay.[/b] Before you reply to me, read all of what I have written.

[M.D]

Again, re-read... Written by me. Before you reply to me, read all of what I have written. [/b] Actually, I'd recommend that you reread Leo Volont. You probably misinterpreted what he meant by "the Best Thing". He's not referencing a situation in which someone close is saved, or anything "noble", but rather a rational course of action (if I read him correctly--he should verify this for himself, of course). King and God, what would you say to a situation in which a person is destined only to be tortured for the rest of her life? Say her torturers won't let her live after they're done with her. Is it cowardice to rationally decide that since you will die soon anyway, you would like to save yourself incredible pain, even when you're not saving someone else or trying to withhold the information for a noble cause? By the way, I'll say that the person had a slow-acting poison administered to them, or perhaps was infected with slow-acting nerve gas, or maybe even something biological (but she is being tortured by people in hazmat suits). Oh, and let's say she's clinically depressed, is under a stupor from a drug that inhibits her ability to think, and has full-body paralysis. So, there's no chance that this will not be the end for her.

[King and God]

I understood what Leo wrote perfectly: according to him I think suicide bombers are cowards. This is false, as I said people who die for a noble cause. Suicide bombers do, in my opinion, die for a noble cause, as it is in their own eyes. If they do the act to prevent their own suffering, then I'd consider it cowardice and wrong, though. As for the scenario mentioned by you, I think it would be an cowardly act, but I would find it far more reasonable than when someone take his/her life due to depression altough they are capable of living it.

[Leo Volont]

QUOTE King and Gold I despise suiciding myself. I think it is an act of cowardice if done to escape misfortune. If done to save someone close or do something noble, then I think it is okay. [/b] What, you think I didn't finish reading your sentence... that you think it is okay if somebody kills themself for YOU, but it is cowardice if he should kill himself for entirely personal reasons. Again, you are way too narcissistically meglomaniacal... for a poor person. If you were wealthy it would suit you better, but proud and arrogant poverty is just silliness. Begging dogs shouldn't growl. King and God, what would you say to a situation in which a person is destined only to be tortured for the rest of her life? Say her torturers won't let her live after they're done with her. Is it cowardice to rationally decide that since you will die soon anyway, you would like to save yourself incredible pain, even when you're not saving someone else or trying to withhold the information for a noble cause? By the way, I'll say that the person had a slow-acting poison administered to them, or perhaps was infected with slow-acting nerve gas, or maybe even something biological (but she is being tortured by people in hazmat suits). Oh, and let's say she's clinically depressed, is under a stupor from a drug that inhibits her ability to think, and has full-body paralysis. So, there's no chance that this will not be the end for her. [/b] Or... say a person was told by his doctor that he would die of cancer in no more than two months, but that he should check himself into the Hospital where the intent of the Treatment would be toward controlling the pain. Well, wouldn't suicide control the pain, and save all that time? And then, there would be something left of the Estate. Remember, in certain uncivilized nations, America in particular, there is no Public Health Plan and any serious illness can easily impoverish even a family that had thought itself well off. So it is that when a doctor asks that one check himself into the Hospital, he might as well call in a Real Estate consultant to discuss whether the house should merely be 2nd Mortgaged or sold outright.

[Leo Volont]

This reminds me of many of the European Existentialists who became so extremely mechaniistically deterministic -- believing that they had no free will about anything... that every choice was already made by the workings of their brains.. no real spiritual freedom in that, that they decided their only possible expressionof Freedom was to kill themselves. Well. Materialists! Served them right. Bad Philosophies will turn around and bite you. [/b] I was asked for further details on the European Existentialists (somebody called my bluff): Camus drove into a wall. I've heard two stories of Sartre, one that he simply drank himself to death, which really does not qualify as suicide, and another story that he had helped it along, but the French, conscious of the National Character, whitewashed the story a bit. But then there was the spike in subsequent suicides. Sweden, that has the highest demographic of Existentialists also has the highest suicide rates. Japan also has a high suicide rate, and this could be owing to the fact that much of Shinto Morality is hardly fleshed out -- they respect honor and loyalty, but kindness and mercy are still designated as weaknesses to their still much more barbarian view then we see in the more civilized Chinese. Though this is slowly turning around as the Japanese have been exposed to the Higher influences of Mahayana Buddhism and Marian Catholicism (one of the important Marian Apparitions of the 20th Century had occurred within a Japanese Convent, at Akida).

[King and God]

What, you think I didn't finish reading your sentence... that you think it is okay if somebody kills themself for YOU, but it is cowardice if he should kill himself for entirely personal reasons.[/b] Based on your reply, it seemed that you entirely missed the "do something noble" part. Apparently you thought I meant something that is noble from my point of view. When I said "do something noble", I meant something that is noble from his point of view, not mine. If he killed himself for me and thought it was an noble action himself, then the suicide would be justified. Make sure you understand what I have said here before you reply to it. Again, you are way too narcissistically meglomaniacal... for a poor person. If you were wealthy it would suit you better, but proud and arrogant poverty is just silliness. Begging dogs shouldn't growl.[/b] My financial status has nothing to do with this at all. I'm proud of myself for the one I am, not for how much money I have in my pocket. And I'm not a beggar.