What's This Exorcism Stuff Anyway?

[Xanous]

I have been plagued by something that has bothered me for about 12 years now and the only explanation I can give is that it must be some crude form of hypnosis. First a little background so that you know where I am coming from. My father is a Pentecostal Church of God minister and has been all my life. So I was raise under very strict religions guidelines and dogma. Now that I have become a free thinking adult, I have rejected my faith that I was forced to adhere to as a child and have found a new type of spirituality. I am not affiliated with any type of religious organization or practice. I have not become atheist but I consider myself to be an agnostic. Unless I have a revelation of a Biblical nature, I simply can no longer be a Christian nor can I take the Bible to be unquestionably true. I have been able to analyze any religion experience that I have had and have deduced that it was mostly emotions and that I alone was able to work myself into an altered state. Being faithfully ignorant I believed that it was the power of God. I have been able reproduced the same type of spiritual experience in a number other ways not involving prayer and not involving any religious ceremony. However, there has been one thing bothering me that I cannot explain. When I was 14 I witnessed to 4 different exorcisms in one month during a very long Pentecostal revival. Now during these exorcisms nothing particular strange happened. It was not anything like what you see in the movies. Simply the evangelist somehow concluded that this person was possessed people then swarmed that individual and began shouting and the Devil and rebuking the demon in the name of Jesus. Somehow all of this commanding was supposed to make the demon leave. Eventually the person would end up on the floor and then they would vomit and most of the time it was black vomit. When they vomited they would be free. Now if you are at church minding you own business and suddenly you are surrounded by a bunch of screaming people telling a demon to get out; perhaps after an hour or so you would think hey maybe they are right. Then when you are subjugated to this form of hypnosis you mind gives over, you know they will not left you leave until you give them what they want, so you do just that. The only thing you can do is vomit black bile because you have been at church for four or more hours and you have not had the opportunity to put anything on your stomach. Now the whole hypnosis theory is no more than that theory. And, using Akum’s razor, it seems to be the simplest explanation that I can imagine. Now perhaps I am wrong, perhaps these four people were victims of demonic possession. However, I still cant believe the traditional Christian way of exorcism is the only way. I mean the Catholics do it totally different. For one, they would never allow the entire congregation to join in the fun. Plus look at the various shamanic tribes, how often they claim to perform exorcism. I would imagine they do not invoke the name of Jesus but use various burning herbs and such nonsense. I believe in the power of faith but who is to say there is only one right way? Now, with having said all of that, Is there anyone out there who can give any better explanation or at least agree with me? Now, if you cant answer without saying “The Bible says”, then don’t bother. I already know. I am a PK remember. I am simply trying to rationally sort out a true event that is very paranormal in nature. Oh one more thought. One person said he did not know he was demon possessed. Now that could mean something very scary or it could simply mean that he never was. I tend to think the latter but why the black bile? interesting: see wiki for Black Bile

[Xanous]

Nobody wants to touch this one, eh?

[icuurd12b42]

Well, I could but I don't know if I should... I’ll say this though… The black bile could be because the person had a really bad ulcer and puked out blood but who knows. Ulcers are common for people who are stressed. Bad bleeding ulcers are the worst and stress out the body even more. Stress begets depression, depression begets odd behaviour and suggestibility to odd thinking. Add demons (implanted by your beliefs) to the midst to explain the imbalance and voila, an intervention is required. Good or bad, it’s not the point. Once visualised, the illness can be cured more efficiently by the sick person’s mind using techniques believed to be effective against the visualisation.

[Neruo]

First of all, cool that you cut your ties with any religious institute and have your own view on god and such. Must haven been hard growing up, and letting that go. Exorcism indeed might be just hynosis. I think that the people actually believe they have demons inside them, and I think that those people actually think the demons left if the preacher sais so. Once you are conviced of something in your mind and body can really have a big effect on yourself. Anyhow, demons are clearly a fraud. Never seen anyone being possed with an angel. And I don't think any major institute still believes in demons. It's just silly. EDIT: Nice point on the ulcers icuurd, didn't thought about that. And blood can turn pretty black.

[Xanous]

well, I dont think all four of them had ulcers.

[icuurd12b42]

Well, it depends on how bad the parish is. Just how long was the suggestion that people might be possessed in the parish floating around? Long enough to stress out suggestionable fearful parishioners to the point of developing ulcers and become stressed enough to fear that they were possessed and to act possessed (self hypnosis if you will)? Anyway, that was just a logical theory. I have a more esoteric theory (here's a hint), though I do prefer to stay within the realm of the physical reality. I sleep better that way Oh, By the way, if you were confronted by a bunch of people gang banging your head all of a sudden, you would act it out, believe me, just for the event to be over with. No prior acting required, just survival instincs.

[Xanous]

I read your hint. It's funny I had an experience similar to ExoByte when I was doing some ghost hunting. Then I decided that most of it was in my head. It is extreamly easy to let things like that get the best of you and you can seriously alter your reality in ways you never thought possible. I think our minds are more powerful than we know. Now, as to what you said about possession suggestion. I seem to remember that people were crazy paranoid about that stuff. One lady thought she was possessed because she was adicted to cigarettes. They thought one man was possessed because he was addicted to phone sex. One man said that everyone has a demon. I was mass paranoia. I was wondering if I was possessed, because of experiencing all this at an early age, sometimes I still wonder. Though, I have never had any reason to believe so. evern the Bible is paranoid about that. I seem to remember the Bible calling epilepy a demon. Well, I was going to say more but I gotta go. Good response icuurd12b42.

[dreammask]

There are a number of probable explanations for the different exorcisms occurring as they did. As you said, exorcisms occur in many different cultures, and they're not always by such negative creatures as Christianity's demons. The methods of exorcism are not all the same either. The body can do some pretty crazy things when the mind is convinced it will happen. Those "possessed" would have been conditioned, through observation and suggestion, to behave the correct way when called upon as possessed. Those types of revivals are extremely ecstatic, most participants are in a trance state by the time the exorcism occurs, so everything is set up perfectly within the minds of the people when the person leading the congregation announces a possession. Trance states are pretty amazing things all in themselves. You can see visions, hear voices, feel incredibly ecstatic, feel possessed by a spirit, as well as take on the suggestions of those around you. I suppose it is a form of hypnosis, but you'll find more information on it if you look up "trance states." About this black vomit or bile... there may be a number of explanations for this too. The fact that they vomited isn't a big deal because that's what they were supposed to do, so that's what they did. The fact that it's black could indicate poor or strange lighting, blood in the stomach, the result of some food they ate before coming to the revival (are there any foods available to the congregation before the revival?), or the fact that they really are vomiting dark bile because their stomach is empty and so they're forcing things from their liver. Now, you said that the vomit/bile was "usually" black, but you did only see four of these episodes, so it could have just been a coincidence that it was dark or black. What makes the whole exorcism events even more convincing as trance states brought on by the revival, is what you said about everyone being paranoid about demon possession. There's a lot of really interesting and good research that's been done on religious trance states and possession. For the record... it's actually not a mainstream Christian thing to experience demon possession nowadays. A few extreme Christian and Catholic sects believe it and hold regular exorcisms like you experienced, but that is definitely not the norm.

[Xanous]

Well, There wasnt any food during the revial but I dont know if they ate prior to the service. I did actualy see only one person's vomit and it was black with yellow spots or chucks. My mother claims that all of them vomited black bile but I never saw that. I was in fact wanting to get the hell out of there so I did not observe as close as I now wish. Most of the time I was praying to be safe. I was realy freaked out. Anyway, my mom tends to embelish a bit so i wonder if that was exactly true. I am certain, however, that all of them vomited; I heard it. I am still haunted by that upchucking sound. *shivers* I wish I was never there.

[icuurd12b42]

Chocolate, I forgot about chocolate for black bile. Anyway, you mom’s exaggeration is common in those circumstances for these people. If you live too long in this environment, you tend to have a distorted view on things (or a one sided biased view on how things are). It’s kinda like a contagious brain virus. They may also say anything to have people on their side. Anyway, the whole situation, in my point of view, could be considered child abuse. A kinda brain molestation if you will. It is not good to have gone through this stuff as it will most likely corrupt your views on reality. No matter how you wish it wouldn’t be so. This Christian religious cultist behaviour is dangerous to the psyche of the child. You come in this world correct and then this shit happens, that is plain wrong. There is a reason why (Catholic) priests do exorcism as a last resort and in seclusion. No one should ever witness an exorcism (real of staged). Especially a child. I never witness this, thank god, For me, it was a sub culture of the Catholic persuasion having meetings (at the regular church) where people claimed to see Jesus. In my child’s mind, I though I must not be a god person because I did not see it. I was like 9 at the time. I can still hear these f_cks wailing, crying, emoting at their delusions. What were they called?… It’ll come back to me. Oh yeah, the Charismatics. They are still around the town. Every time I see them, I wonder how many children’s lives they have ruined. It take all my self control not to jump them and kick their ass hehehe.

[Xanous]

wow. I dont think of it as abuse because my parents were raising me the best they could and were doing what they thought was right however missguided. But you are right, catholics at least do exorsims away from the congregation. Oh and for my mom’s exaggeration... not to bash on my mom, I love her dearly, but when my grandmother died, my mom told me that right after she took her last breath she could hear the gates of heaven slamming shut. She said it sounded like thunder. LOL I looked up the weather for that night in that town... It showed thunderstorms. but whatever, I let hear believe what she wants.

[icuurd12b42]

Well, if they voluntarily put you through mental anguish that stayed with you since childhood, then, you know… Not to call your family abusers, just that specific act. My angry self would demand an explanation on the reasoning of why so called well meaning parents would think that I, as a child, should have been subjected to this scene. I mean, we hear a lot about children witnessing satanic rituals and flag it as abuse. That, to me does not fall far from it. Anyway, my self reserved self would just let it go, chalk it up to crazy people creating crazy groups and doing crazy things while messing with people’s head. It is hard though, as adults, to justify and forgive the things we experienced as children in the name of religion. The damage only becomes apparent in mid adulthood. That is the tragedy.

[Xanous]

Well at least no one in this thread is telling me all of that crap was real. Still its hard to explain away. The consequences of being wrong in my assumptions could be eternally painful. On the other hand, I cannot follow any religion for no other reason than "fire insurance". like most of life's mysteries, I suppose I will never know the answer. I guess I can only go with my gut on this one and hope that is indeed crazy people creating crazy groups and doing crazy things. Unless that is someone comes up with a darn good argument for suggesting otherwise. I am always open to other possiblites.

[icuurd12b42]

Well at least no one in this thread is telling me all of that crap was real. Still its hard to explain away. The consequences of being wrong in my assumptions could be eternally painful. On the other hand, I cannot follow any religion for no other reason than "fire insurance". [/b] In my experience, it is as real as you want it to be. Then again, why would someone sane want this to be real is the question. I, personally, don’t want to waste my life chasing demons knowing that, if my faith falters, I would be at risk. Science here I come. God accept my choice. like most of life's mysteries, I suppose I will never know the answer. I guess I can only go with my gut on this one and hope that is indeed crazy people creating crazy groups and doing crazy things. Unless that is someone comes up with a darn good argument for suggesting otherwise. I am always open to other possiblites. [/b] Like I said before, you sleep better that way. Cheers!