Thread: Religious Indoctrination

Originally Posted by icuurd12b42

You're going to have to reformulate your text before I can answer. The context of your words is getting lost. I have no idea what your (2) last sentences are saying.
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Sorry.
The mere fact that haven it been any religion, makes me dubious of believing.
How is one to believe in something once they realize and become aware that this process occurs?

When I came to the conclusion that anybody would be susceptible to believe in any given religion or principle, just from the single reason that they were brought up in that environment, made me question the validity of its merit or possibility.
Personally my best friend was raised as a Christian. He and his four siblings believe strongly in what they were taught from the beginning.
My aunt turned to become a Jehovah's Witness at an early age. Now her three children believe this as well.
My X-girlfriend was raised to believe in The Church of the Abrahamic Faith.
I was raised with no one religion being taught to me. I had been witnessed to by all of the above, on a regular basis. Me realizing that they cannot all be correct, I became aware of the source. Their upbringing.
I don't hold myself apart from any of them, for I would have likely believed in any one of those religions had I been raised that way.
Aside from religion this is also how, in many cases, racism can be derived or a political party and more.

So my last sentence in short, would be, having come to this conclusion, how could someone give their self to any one religion?
You can't half believe can you? There may be doubt, but still an underlying belief.

Your thoughts..

Originally Posted by Keeper

I have a fealing that most athiests here were forced into a religion by people who dind't know one end of the religion form another, and now are trying to bite back.

am I wrong?
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Yes, you totally are. Clearly you have no idea what is going on the the world. I, for one Didn't get raised with Any religion. I drew my OWN conclusions. My parents never said anything about religion, positive or negative, unless I asked a question about it.

People that get raised without indoctrination most of the time become athiest.

do you never see anything but the inside of a church or something, Keeper, making such strange accusations?

Originally Posted by Howetzer

When I came to the conclusion that anybody would be susceptible to believe in any given religion or principle, just from the single reason that they were brought up in that environment, made me question the validity of its merit or possibility.
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Do you question the validity of your beliefs and principles with the same vigour? You too have been raised in an environment controlled by elders that may have been wrong about something. Would that make them wrong about everything they told you?

Originally Posted by Howetzer

Personally my best friend was raised as a Christian. He and his four siblings believe strongly in what they were taught from the beginning.
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As long as they don’t come around and call non believers demons, I see nothing wrong with that…

Originally Posted by Howetzer

My aunt turned to become a Jehovah's Witness at an early age. Now her three children believe this as well.
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I too have an aunt who is a Jehovah’s Witness. The kindest person I ever met. Her family, her beliefs.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

My X-girlfriend was raised to believe in The Church of the Abrahamic Faith.
I was raised with no one religion being taught to me. I had been witnessed to by all of the above, on a regular basis. Me realizing that they cannot all be correct, I became aware of the source. Their upbringing.
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Sure. I’ve seen the discrepancies in beliefs as well. It’s not like everybody got together and agreed from the start. Even if they did, 1000 years later, there are bound to be differences.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

I don't hold myself apart from any of them, for I would have likely believed in any one of those religions had I been raised that way.
Aside from religion this is also how, in many cases, racism can be derived or a political party and more.
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Like I said, population control. Useful for rallying people to defend your country. Or prevent chaos within your walls. It is easier to believe in something that cannot be proven than believing in something that is simply wrong.

The problem arises when too many people have their interpretation (right or wrong) of the fundamental principles, adding complexity and deviations so people get more and more confused and freaky.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

So my last sentence in short, would be, having come to this conclusion, how could someone give their self to any one religion?
You can't half believe can you? There may be doubt, but still an underlying belief.

Your thoughts..[/color]
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There are many reasons why one would devote themselves to a religion. As many reasons as there are people on this planet.
1) You don’t care that there are many difference and just hope yours it the right one
2) You come to realise that maybe all of them are right but just don’t know or don’t want to know, so selecting a religion becomes as easy as selecting food from a menu
3) You go with the flow so not to be ostracized by the 95% believing population.
4) There is a cute Jewish girl you want to impress…
5) You are getting married and most of you family is religious. Might as well go for it to provide a stable environment for the children.
6) For God and Country
7) You are horny and the religion you chose provides you with willing women every night.


Is religion and belief the same thing? Is god and religion the same thing?

No. Religion is a way of life, a way to devote yourself to a principle, godly or otherwise, real or not, proven or not.

If you have the same ritual every day, you are religiously following a principle. Is that wrong?

I think that we (society) are sooo far away from the meaning and intent of the words we invented that we are too confused to do anything right. Just like the law system

Just like people lost the meaning of the word Science in just 30 years, we also lost the meaning of the word God in a few millenniums.

What if the word god meant “That which was here first and will be there last”, or “That which has always been and will ever be” or what if it meant “not nothing“. How could you contradict that when you have no idea of the meaning behind it.

How would religiously following that principle everyday be wrong if you are a good person.

How would believing that god is an old guy sitting on a throne invisibly in the sky be wrong if you are a good person.

How could you prove the principle wrong and call people stupid or ignorant without anything to back you up. In this case, there is nothing anyone can gather up as evidence for or against. It is brilliant!

Now, like I said, I do not follow religion as I have enough luggage to keep me on the good side. And the religious people that apply their teaching with no flexibility are not worth my time. The again, so does any person that apply his/her principles the same way. Black and white, true or false. No in-between. No relativity. No real judgment, no decision making ability beyond the rule set (no soul in the olden tongue, for to have a soul is to have the ability to think for your self).

Cheers!

Originally Posted by icuurd12b42

Do you question the validity of your beliefs and principles with the same vigour? You too have been raised in an environment controlled by elders that may have been wrong about something. Would that make them wrong about everything they told you?[/b]

You may find this hard to believe, but yes. I read a small quote from Einstein once that meant a lot to me. Simply, "Question everything."
And I do. I take nothing at face value and I am open to the possibility that anything I currently know or believe may be a fallacy.
So yes. I do.

From the beginning post our discussion was in regards to Religious Indoctrination. We have went a little beyond that but still have remained in context to it. But I think that there are a few misunderstandings. at least between you and I, icuurd12b42.
I would like to separate myself from the atheist part. For I am not an atheist.
I too have never regarded religious people as stupid and never proclaimed to be better than someone with Religious Indoctrination. But with this topic comes subtopics that we have explores such as belief.
Religious Indoctrination, (to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.)
This has been the focal point of my argument.

How could you prove the principle wrong and call people stupid or ignorant without anything to back you up. In this case, there is nothing anyone can gather up as evidence for or against. It is brilliant![/b]

Ignorant, meaning not knowing. I am backing it up with how indoctrination becomes. Religious or otherwise. In this case Religion.

How would religiously following that principle everyday be wrong if you are a good person.
How would believing that god is an old guy sitting on a throne invisibly in the sky be wrong if you are a good person.[/b]

Wrong? We have agreed that religion is a good crutch for a society. Wrong in the format of right and wrong...very possibly so.
Wrong in a moral sense. Not at all in my opinion.

If you have the same ritual every day, you are religiously following a principle. Is that wrong?[/b]

It is a persons choice, right or wrong. But if you rigorously follow a belief that, as I have pointed out in a number of ways, a beleif and its beginning has good reason to be questioned, due to how it was derived. Then I feel there is some ignorance involved.

The people we know. I agree. most of them are very great people, Who I consider naive. I respect their faith and admire their kindness.

All those ideals you listed to why someone may have faith, and faith being: " Religion is a way of life, a way to devote yourself to a principle, godly or otherwise, real or not, proven or not."
I agree.
But if you can attach yourself to such faith based reasons as you have pointed out, as many do, then you are masking yourself from truth. Because you do not need to search for it anymore. The answers are there for you. Simply put before you with no awareness or questioning needed.

I am certainly not trying to discredit ANY religion or put any down. I am pointing out an analitacal view on religious beleifs and how the quintification of beleif. Validation, a premises from which the conclusion may logically be derived

Well said.

In conclusion, we have pointed out (directly and indirectly) that indoctrination happens to everyone, knowingly/willingly or not. You can be indoctrinated into believing many things, some true, some not, some unproven, some “unprovable“.

Indoctrination seems bad when seemingly used to make someone believe something that others do not agree with. It is worst when used to make people believe something that is obviously not true (Pink grass).

On the other hand, indoctrination is used to rally people under one goal, one set of beliefs that can be used to control the people living in your system (country, religion, town, work, hockey team, golf club, etc.)

If there was no common doctrine to fall back to, we’d all be in our house, never getting out for a beer.

Religion is not indoctrination though indoctrination can be used to make you follow the “religion” of the rest of the group you are in. Is it good or bad? Again, it’s all relative. It ain’t bad until someone tells you he thinks so, putting doubts in your head (that may result in making a better or worst choice).

Would we be brave enough to follow our doubts to the end when we are in a setting where we would announce ourselves as being part of the very distinct minority and risk ostracizing. Luckily, in North America, we do not do this stuff anymore, at least not to the point of burning people in a bond fire. If I was in another part of the world or in another time, I would not talk like this. Hail the pope, Hail to the emperor or hail Mohamed or whatever, to stay alive.

Indoctrination is a fact of life. You can’t really do anything against it, you can only make it more tolerable/bearable.

Should someone who adopts a doctrine immediately try to discredit any other doctrines? No, not unless the doctrine is a threat to it’s followers or others.