Thread: My Beliefs About Christianity Vs The Earth

Many cases have come up everywhere about God not being real (or A God in all cases). People say that everything can happen and has happened without a God or the need OF a God. However, this brings up another point. Now I don't know a lot (or much at all) about other religions other than my own, but we are asked/told to believe there is a God, to know Jesus died for our sins, and to follow him and pray for him. This challenges many people to the point where they don't want to believe, and a scientific meaning is a great way out of it.

You see, in my eyes, when God created the Earth, he didn't make it EASY to believe. People had (and have to) work around all the distractions and knowledge of the world to realize that God is there, even though they could have an easy way out by saying everything from today started from a big bang and a pre-cell. So many things make it possible to ignore God and not believe in him, so (being a Christian) I feel that those who go to heaven are the ones who are able to stand above the nonbelievers even with all the temptations of the world and the devil.

So many people are leaving the church because they either stop believing or don't believe they can do it (out of laziness: cant go to church, etc). This disturbs me because, since i believe Jesus died on the cross for us and rose from the dead for our sins ONLY 2000 YEARS AGO, people are already leaving the miracles behind. It is said from what I have read that he will come again, and I expect him to when things get as bad as they were, to where Christianity is almost no more.

Basically, I'm trying to say that when God made Earth, he left enough evidence that could tempt people to not believe if they didn't want to. The devil could also be the cause, though I'm not educated enough to fully make that decision.

As for other religions, people say that those things didn't really happen or whatnot, yet they still believe in their religion. Atheists and others forget that the key word is BELIEVE, not prove. We are brought into the world KNOWING our religion is real, not guessing. Good Christians won't question God and their religion and say "You know, why is Christianity real? Why not Buddhism or Hinduism?". I'm sure those born into other religions feel the same way, and you can't change them because that is how they were raised and taught.

Every religion (to my knowledge) has a reason to believe over the others. I think a nice, strong point to Christianity is that it has the most members over the world: more than any other. Jesus must have effected such a wide amount of people; there could have been descendants to those who saw him die and rise again, who KNOW it is real. Remember when the Pope died? How many people it affected? Christianity is a great thing; to me it keeps the Earth united amongst their differences between nations. I'm not against any other religion because that would be unfair, but I am against anyone who wishes to pull people from their religion as that is about as low as it can go.

(I didn't read over this when I was finished. If I contradicted anything, please let me know so I can clear that up. It is hard to compare Christianity with other religions because everyone is born into one to believe in, even if it is atheism.)

-Dynamo

Well I believe that I won't ever know the meaning of existance, it is uncomprehendable. And Buddhism isn't really a religion, it's more a way of life. I believe in god as in infinity itself, not something that creates or thinks, but something that is. And we are all a part of it, we are all god. I don't know what is "real", all I know is that I am and that's the only thing I am sure of, the only thing I can argue about.

Well if you read the first couple chapters of Genesis you'll see that God did show himself regularly to Adam and Eve. He communed with them daily and had a personal relationship with them. That's how he first created the world. When sin happened, it became more difficult to believe. That's when God was seperated from us and Satan started to deceive us into not believing in God and doing evil things.

(reply to bonsay)

thats fine

im not criticizing you in any way though when i say that the hardest part is to believe rather than prove. (when i read your post, i got out of it that you only wanted to argue what you knew was true if that is incorrect, please let me know.) Existence is uncomprehendable; thus why we can't imagine eternal life or what happens when we die, or what was there before the universe etc. Nothing can be around forever or has been around forever unless it is supernatural or GODly. Such a God (as the one and only I place my heart in) would be able to exist before time, unlike things in our world. Whereever there is an effect, there is a cause. The big bang and those before it were all caused by something. The first trace of the universe was caused by God (from my beliefs).

Another thing, God created the Earth in 6 days, 7 if you include the day he rested. These days, however, could be interpreted as evolution that he watched over. This is one way I see it.

Thanks for reading and replying, however. I wish to keep everything in this thread formal with no attacks or fights from a misunderstanding

(to Jeremysr)

to my knowledge...pretty much, yeah.

Well, let's just say that I'm split into a rational and agnostic part. I don't want to argue about anything. To me anything is possible, all I know for sure is that I am. That's my general truth. The rational part is the one arguing in other threads, eaven though I seek nothing but a "logical" explanation. I never wan't do disproove anything.
Believe what you want, the only thing I still don't understand is that if god is allpowerfull, why do these things happen? It might be that I don't understand the word allpowefull - to me it means to have the power of doing, being anything. If you can be anything, aren't you infinite in a way? I don't expect anyone to answer why, because we aren't on "his level", but it's the only thing blocking my rational part from seeing logic in this biblical god.

(to Jeremysr)

to my knowledge...pretty much, yeah.
[/b]

Oh I thought you didn't know that. Because your first post contradicts it (I think?)

(to bonsay)

I know what you are saying, there are a lot of things we don't know about God. He says not to question him, and that is fine because we have billions of questions. However, there is a reason for everything he did.

He created Adam and Eve, the first humans, and talked to them daily. He loved them, for they were his first creation that was built in his image, but thought on their own. He placed a tree with the fruit of wisdom and told them not to eat from them, but as he expected, one did. This brought about sin, where he left the Earth staying mysterious again (though he did appear/talk).

Now it is a matter of avoiding sin to show you love and respect God enough that you want your soul to be with him after death. When you die, you are but a soul that yearns to be with your creator. In heaven, you are always with him, while in Hell, you are never around him. That pain can be described as fire burning and burning you. It is being exiled from the creation of life himself, whom you disobeyed and you know it.

God knows everything; he knows what you are thinking, what you are going to do, and what the future is of everything. The only reason he is so content with everything going on in the world is because he knows how it will all turn out. He loves us, and wouldn't let us die out without a place in Heaven (or Hell in certain cases). This basically states that as long as no other extreme actions are taken (such as sending his son down to Earth), then there is no reason our world won't save itself (or humanity won't be saved by him). If there was a problem, either he would be upset, he would fix it, or he would allow it (though his own people dieing out seems unlikely to allow).

This is how I see it, but we are all entitled to our opinions.

(to Jeremysr)

If I contradicted it, let me know and ill fix it. Once I start talking, i go on and on and accept new information into my head as I write.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

(to Jeremysr)

If I contradicted it, let me know and ill fix it. Once I start talking, i go on and on and accept new information into my head as I write.
[/b]

In the 4th paragraph you seem to say that when God created the earth he left just enough evidence to make it look like he might not exist, but he actually showed himself and talked to us before sin. What you said might be true though, after we sinned for the first time.

If he knew everything, why did he still condemn thousands (I know, more) to hell, knowing they wouldn't believe in him etc.
I can't argue about the other things you said, because it's bound to belief.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If he knew everything, why did he still conemn thousands to hell, knowing they wouldn't believe in him etc.
[/b]

I can surprisingly answer that. You see, in the older days, you weren't as worried about yourself as you were your descendants and your name. Certain people were promised that their children and children's children etc would prosper and live and the ancestor would be praised. Others were promised that if they disobeyed God in a certain task, then every one of their descendants would be "damned" to hell.

Everyone is given a chance to believe in God. Up to your conformation (or conformation age if you are not in our religion), if you die before you decide whether you believe in God or not, you go to heaven. Afterwards, it all depends on whether you believe or not.

If you are not born Christian, then I suppose it can be blamed on your ancestors somewhere in their lives, since chances are high you will not change (and i wouldn't blame you, since mostly everything you believe in was influenced while you were growing up).

So why did God do this since he knew certain people wouldn't make the correct decisions? My way of believing is that he is giving example to future generations about what and what not to do. This all began with the sprouting of sin so long ago, where people had the ability to make the wrong decision and affect their place in heaven. Having a perfect society would result in them almost thinking they were like God, who never made sins. It has to have flaws, but how many flaws it has relies on the choices of those in the society.

Hope I explained things well enough I'm not trying to change what you believe because a lot of people can't force themselves to do that, but I hope you are getting a better understanding of our religion.

(To jeremysr)

what you said about him creating that after sin might have been the case, but remember that he knew sin would eventually exist, so it is possible he began creating that even before he made humans. Whatever the case, it really isn't important of WHEN he did it, but BECAUSE he did it (though I'm sure you realize that.)

Before you read the following please know that I am not bashing you or any other for your beliefs

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Many cases have come up everywhere about God not being real (or A God in all cases). People say that everything can happen and has happened without a God or the need OF a God. However, this brings up another point. Now I don't know a lot (or much at all) about other religions other than my own, but we are asked/told to believe there is a God, to know Jesus died for our sins, and to follow him and pray for him. This challenges many people to the point where they don't want to believe, and a scientific meaning is a great way out of it.

You see, in my eyes, when God created the Earth, he didn't make it EASY to believe. People had (and have to) work around all the distractions and knowledge of the world to realize that God is there, even though they could have an easy way out by saying everything from today started from a big bang and a pre-cell. So many things make it possible to ignore God and not believe in him, so (being a Christian) I feel that those who go to heaven are the ones who are able to stand above the nonbelievers even with all the temptations of the world and the devil.[/b]

I agree with you, to a point. I don't agree with you on the fact that you say the big bang theory and pre-cell are an easy way out. I'm sure that a scientist didn't just wake up one day and say, "You know what... I think that we just poofed from thin air.". I am sure that he/she took plenty of time to go over everything and study everything out before they presented it before a council of other scientists. There has been many studies that have been done to prove that the big bang and pre-cell theories are probable, just as Christian scientists have done the same with the Creation theory. Either theory is not the"easy way out".
Your definition of heaven may be different from that of a Buddhist, Taoist, or any other religion/way of life. I don't think that it is very fair to say that Christians will stand above those who sucumb to the temptations of the world.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

So many people are leaving the church because they either stop believing or don't believe they can do it (out of laziness: cant go to church, etc). This disturbs me because, since I believe Jesus died on the cross for us and rose from the dead for our sins ONLY 2000 YEARS AGO, people are already leaving the miracles behind. It is said from what I have read that he will come again, and I expect him to when things get as bad as they were, to where Christianity is almost no more.[/b]

My aunt is a very religious woman. For nearly 20 years she was not able to go to church because my uncle had a brain anurism and was bed ridden. That did not push her away from her faith. She faithfully read her Bible and watched sermons on her television. This in fact made her a stronger Christian. The Bible does say that in the last days believers will be few and every hear will have heard the Word of God. The fact of the matter is, is that people's definition of a miracle will differ so you cannot say that people are walking away from miracles. A classic and great example of this is seen on Pulp Fiction (lol) where Pitt and Vincent were arguing about their opion on a miracle.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Basically, I'm trying to say that when God made Earth, he left enough evidence that could tempt people to not believe if they didn't want to. The devil could also be the cause, though I'm not educated enough to fully make that decision.
[/b]

Once again Hades is the god of the underworld in Greek mythology and Satan is the ruler of hell in Christianity... opinions differ depending on religion.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

As for other religions, people say that those things didn't really happen or whatnot, yet they still believe in their religion. Atheists and others forget that the key word is BELIEVE, not prove. We are brought into the world KNOWING our religion is real, not guessing. Good Christians won't question God and their religion and say "You know, why is Christianity real? Why not Buddhism or Hinduism?". I'm sure those born into other religions feel the same way, and you can't change them because that is how they were raised and taught.[/b]

We are also brought into the world curious and wanting to find answers for ourselves. Someone who has went to church and prayed and prayed and saw no answer to their prayers, start looking for other ways to solve their problems. Too many people rely soley on their god to answer their prayers and make no effort to help themselves. Eventually some people figure out that they cannot simply wait and actually make efforts themselves, Some continue to do so with the aid of their prayers and others leave their faith behind.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Every religion (to my knowledge) has a reason to believe over the others. I think a nice, strong point to Christianity is that it has the most members over the world: more than any other. Jesus must have effected such a wide amount of people; there could have been descendants to those who saw him die and rise again, who KNOW it is real. Remember when the Pope died? How many people it affected? Christianity is a great thing; to me it keeps the Earth united amongst their differences between nations. I'm not against any other religion because that would be unfair, but I am against anyone who wishes to pull people from their religion as that is about as low as it can go.[/b]

You are 100% correct in saying that every religion has a reason to believe over the others. That is why there are so many conversions going on from one religion to the next. However it's not just Christianity that holds the world together, I think that is is that fact that many more people nowadays are A LOT more open minded rather than the way it used to be. People can accept the fact that not everyone can be converted to their own religion. I have a lot of Christian friends as well as Pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, and Taoists as well. We all accept the fact that to each their own and don't go around bashing each other on our beliefs or punching each other in the face because one or the other doesn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. I really hope that you also take into mind that Christianity also pulls people from other religions to join their faith. If not, explain to me what missionaries are doing in foriegn countries risking their lives to convert people to their faith.
Like I said, I am not bashing ANY religions, just making a couple different points. I was raised a Christian and now don't claim any religion. I guess you can say that I am undecided.

Thanks for your post, it really made me think! I know you aren't bashing me, and I appreciate you saying that. I'm glad this is keeping to a formal level of discussion.

Originally Posted by Talon

Before you read the following please know that I am not bashing you or any other for your beliefs

I agree with you, to a point. I don't agree with you on the fact that you say the big bang theory and pre-cell are an easy way out. I'm sure that a scientist didn't just wake up one day and say, "You know what... I think that we just poofed from thin air.". I am sure that he/she took plenty of time to go over everything and study everything out before they presented it before a council of other scientists. There has been many studies that have been done to prove that the big bang and pre-cell theories are probable, just as Christian scientists have done the same with the Creation theory. Either theory is not the"easy way out".
Your definition of heaven may be different from that of a Buddhist, Taoist, or any other religion/way of life. I don't think that it is very fair to say that Christians will stand above those who sucumb to the temptations of the world.
[/b]

If I worded anything wrong, forgive me. I meant to say that God left enough evidence that people could eventually find a way to how the world could have been created. He left enough evidence to see who, in the presence of this material, would still believe that the world was made by God. I still think Biology and many things are very interesting and I love how scientists have found this information, but I still believe that this is only evidence and an easy way out. THE REASON I SAY its an easy way out is because its logical and its right in our faces.

About Christians standing above the others: Earlier I said how the ancestors of people sort of decided their fate in our beliefs (I'm not trying to demand that what I am saying is true, but this is the beliefs of the Christians and myself). Some of those people still have the option to go to Christianity as it is presented to them, (some do not) but still ignore it. IF THEY HAD the opportunity to believe and learn about God and they chose to not believe for SELFISH REASONS, then yes, Christians stand above. However, in the case that they don't even know about God or don't have enough knowledge or understanding to, I must say I'm not sure what happens to them. I don't feel it is FAIR if they go to Hell, but we still have no idea the EXACT criteria of Hell and Heaven.

Originally Posted by Talon

My aunt is a very religious woman. For nearly 20 years she was not able to go to church because my uncle had a brain anurism and was bed ridden. That did not push her away from her faith. She faithfully read her Bible and watched sermons on her television. This in fact made her a stronger Christian. The Bible does say that in the last days believers will be few and every hear will have heard the Word of God. The fact of the matter is, is that people's definition of a miracle will differ so you cannot say that people are walking away from miracles. A classic and great example of this is seen on Pulp Fiction (lol) where Pitt and Vincent were arguing about their opion on a miracle.
[/b]

About your aunt; that is very good. It warms my heart to know there are people out there like her. My Pap is so sick he can not go to church either, but my Grandma does. After mass, she preaches to him and brings him communion (its a community church, so sometimes the Priest even comes down to do so). There are many reasons people can't go to church, but if they CAN and they blow it off for selfish or lazy reasons, then that is the example I was aiming for.

Originally Posted by Talon

Once again Hades is the god of the underworld in Greek mythology and Satan is the ruler of hell in Christianity... opinions differ depending on religion.
[/b]

Yup. However, as I talk, I am saying this from a Christian point of view.

Originally Posted by Talon

We are also brought into the world curious and wanting to find answers for ourselves. Someone who has went to church and prayed and prayed and saw no answer to their prayers, start looking for other ways to solve their problems. Too many people rely soley on their god to answer their prayers and make no effort to help themselves. Eventually some people figure out that they cannot simply wait and actually make efforts themselves, Some continue to do so with the aid of their prayers and others leave their faith behind.
[/b]

Curiosity is fine. It is one of the great things of being alive. I, for one, love to study things that are unnecessary to be a religious person, such as the deep involvement of physics and the creation of the first cells...stuff like that. God left a lot for us to discover, and that is the glory of it all. However, one who explores yet still believes it all derived from God is the model that others should look up to (if Christian...I'm not trying to get at other religions). Another thing is that God acts in mysterious ways. Trying to identify what and when that is, then recognizing it, saves many people. He will most likely never act obviously in pure view. You have to LOOK around his world and search and KNOW his is always with you.

Originally Posted by Talon

You are 100% correct in saying that every religion has a reason to believe over the others. That is why there are so many conversions going on from one religion to the next. However it's not just Christianity that holds the world together, I think that is is that fact that many more people nowadays are A LOT more open minded rather than the way it used to be. People can accept the fact that not everyone can be converted to their own religion. I have a lot of Christian friends as well as Pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, and Taoists as well. We all accept the fact that to each their own and don't go around bashing each other on our beliefs or punching each other in the face because one or the other doesn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. I really hope that you also take into mind that Christianity also pulls people from other religions to join their faith. If not, explain to me what missionaries are doing in foriegn countries risking their lives to convert people to their faith.
Like I said, I am not bashing ANY religions, just making a couple different points. I was raised a Christian and now don't claim any religion. I guess you can say that I am undecided.
[/b]

Other religions keep the world together too. A great thing is that religions can come together and form a united earth, something I'm sure God would love to see. However, I don't know much about other religions. When the Pope died two years ago or so, it was emotional and was a sensation to almost everyone I talked to, even those who weren't Christian. That is why/where I pulled my example from when I said that Christianity ties together the world.

Missionaries (from what I learned about 10 minutes ago by chance) go to countries who are out there and unaware of the religions of the world. This includes those in Africa, who don't even know there is a religion or a God. I have to run for a touch, but please find me other examples (that i know are out there) of missionaries going to countries who have strong beliefs already present.

Thanks for the thinking and the post!

-Dynamo

A couple things I wanted to reply/add to...

Originally posted by Dynamo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dynamo)</div>

If I worded anything wrong, forgive me. I meant to say that God left enough evidence that people could eventually find a way to how the world could have been created. He left enough evidence to see who, in the presence of this material, would still believe that the world was made by God. I still think Biology and many things are very interesting and I love how scientists have found this information, but I still believe that this is only evidence and an easy way out. THE REASON I SAY its an easy way out is because its logical and its right in our faces.[/b]

Also, God doesn&#39;t just sit there and wait for you to find him. He wants to find you (otherwise he wouldn&#39;t have sent Jesus.) So if you search for him and want to find him, he will definately find you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Talon
Once again Hades is the god of the underworld in Greek mythology and Satan is the ruler of hell in Christianity... opinions differ depending on religion.

Nope, Satan doesn&#39;t rule Hell. He will suffer in it just like everyone else will. It&#39;s his punishment, for murdering Man spiritually.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

A couple things I wanted to reply/add to...
Also, God doesn&#39;t just sit there and wait for you to find him. He wants to find you (otherwise he wouldn&#39;t have sent Jesus.) So if you search for him and want to find him, he will definately find you.
[/b]

That is quite true, forgot to mention that. Thanks

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

Nope, Satan doesn&#39;t rule Hell. He will suffer in it just like everyone else will. It&#39;s his punishment, for murdering Man spiritually.
[/b]

That one i forgot about. Satan is considered the ruler, however, because he is the tempter of all people on Earth. He wants them to suffer with him, for he is still one who yearns to have his soul freed.

(if i screwed that up, let me know as usual)

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Thanks for your post, it really made me think&#33; I know you aren&#39;t bashing me, and I appreciate you saying that. I&#39;m glad this is keeping to a formal level of discussion.
If I worded anything wrong, forgive me. I meant to say that God left enough evidence that people could eventually find a way to how the world could have been created. He left enough evidence to see who, in the presence of this material, would still believe that the world was made by God. I still think Biology and many things are very interesting and I love how scientists have found this information, but I still believe that this is only evidence and an easy way out. THE REASON I SAY its an easy way out is because its logical and its right in our faces.[/b]

Your most welcome&#33;
There is no need to apoligize lol, it was just a misunderstanding. And you are correct. Using Christianity as an example, there are plenty of factors that support Creationism.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

About Christians standing above the others: Earlier I said how the ancestors of people sort of decided their fate in our beliefs (I&#39;m not trying to demand that what I am saying is true, but this is the beliefs of the Christians and myself). Some of those people still have the option to go to Christianity as it is presented to them, (some do not) but still ignore it. IF THEY HAD the opportunity to believe and learn about God and they chose to not believe for SELFISH REASONS, then yes, Christians stand above. However, in the case that they don&#39;t even know about God or don&#39;t have enough knowledge or understanding to, I must say I&#39;m not sure what happens to them. I don&#39;t feel it is FAIR if they go to Hell, but we still have no idea the EXACT criteria of Hell and Heaven.[/b]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the Bible it does say (unsure of the scripture) that those that have no knowledge of evil can do no evil. Until they know their sins, they cannot be held accountable.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

About your aunt; that is very good. It warms my heart to know there are people out there like her. My Pap is so sick he can not go to church either, but my Grandma does. After mass, she preaches to him and brings him communion (its a community church, so sometimes the Priest even comes down to do so). There are many reasons people can&#39;t go to church, but if they CAN and they blow it off for selfish or lazy reasons, then that is the example I was aiming for.[/b]

Point now understood&#33; Sorry to hear about your Pap. We used to hold services at my aunts house.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Curiosity is fine. It is one of the great things of being alive. I, for one, love to study things that are unnecessary to be a religious person, such as the deep involvement of physics and the creation of the first cells...stuff like that. God left a lot for us to discover, and that is the glory of it all. However, one who explores yet still believes it all derived from God is the model that others should look up to (if Christian...I&#39;m not trying to get at other religions). Another thing is that God acts in mysterious ways. Trying to identify what and when that is, then recognizing it, saves many people. He will most likely never act obviously in pure view. You have to LOOK around his world and search and KNOW his is always with you. [/b]

I could not have put it better myself. It&#39;s the same with Wiccans and the way they believe magick may work. It may not be 100% visable, but it works undercover.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Other religions keep the world together too. A great thing is that religions can come together and form a united earth, something I&#39;m sure God would love to see. However, I don&#39;t know much about other religions. When the Pope died two years ago or so, it was emotional and was a sensation to almost everyone I talked to, even those who weren&#39;t Christian. That is why/where I pulled my example from when I said that Christianity ties together the world.[/b]

The Pope was a great man. He did a lot of great things in his life for the Christian community. That is one reason why he was so upheld.

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Missionaries (from what I learned about 10 minutes ago by chance) go to countries who are out there and unaware of the religions of the world. This includes those in Africa, who don&#39;t even know there is a religion or a God. I have to run for a touch, but please find me other examples (that i know are out there) of missionaries going to countries who have strong beliefs already present.[/b]

That is not always true. When I was in church some of the missionaries we supported were in the Philipenes (sorry about the spelling) where a vast majority of the population is Buddhist. That&#39;s the point I was trying to make

It is good to see an open minded Christian. There are very few of them and I am glad that we can have tis discussion as adults rather than children.

Talon

Originally Posted by Dynamo

Nope, Satan doesn&#39;t rule Hell. He will suffer in it just like everyone else will. It&#39;s his punishment, for murdering Man spiritually.
[/b]

Satan does rule hell, however, he will have eternal punishment in the "lake of fire"

Originally Posted by Talon

Your most welcome&#33;
There is no need to apoligize lol, it was just a misunderstanding. And you are correct. Using Christianity as an example, there are plenty of factors that support Creationism.
[/b]

Yup&#33; I guess it could go both ways depending on how you wish to believe it. You could say my way, or you could say the other way (where there is no God, but things evolved).

Originally Posted by Talon

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the Bible it does say (unsure of the scripture) that those that have no knowledge of evil can do no evil. Until they know their sins, they cannot be held accountable.
[/b]

Makes sense, if I find out, I&#39;ll let you know. The only reason I don&#39;t fully agree yet is due to the whole "damned" descendants thing.

Originally Posted by Talon

Point now understood&#33; Sorry to hear about your Pap. We used to hold services at my aunts house.
[/b]

Thanks about my Pap

Originally Posted by Talon

I could not have put it better myself. It&#39;s the same with Wiccans and the way they believe magick may work. It may not be 100% visable, but it works undercover.
[/b]

Don&#39;t know much about the Wiccans, but since all religions seem to be similar in some way, I&#39;m sure it would work in an analogy of some sort.

Originally Posted by Talon

The Pope was a great man. He did a lot of great things in his life for the Christian community. That is one reason why he was so upheld.
[/b]

agreed

Originally Posted by Talon

That is not always true. When I was in church some of the missionaries we supported were in the Philipenes (sorry about the spelling) where a vast majority of the population is Buddhist. That&#39;s the point I was trying to make
[/b]

hmm, ill look into that. i dont have much knowledge of missionaries.

Originally Posted by Talon

It is good to see an open minded Christian. There are very few of them and I am glad that we can have tis discussion as adults rather than children.
[/b]

once again, agreed..&#33;

My post might have seemed kind of empty, but thats just an acknowledgement that I read it and agree with (the vast majority of) it.

~Dynamo

I hate to burst your bubble on something, but, a lot of christians have stopped going to church becuase they realized through studying what Jesus has taught that church is hypocritical to the core.

first off, church is the body of Christ. not a little building sitting on a hilll or men repeating verses in the bible you should already know. its not a place you go to. and there is nothing in the gospel saying you need to go to church every sunday for once an hour. THAT is for the LAZY people. becuase lazy people need to be told what to do.

Christ had set up a spiritual path - not a religious path.

Originally Posted by juroara

I hate to burst your bubble on something, but, a lot of christians have stopped going to church becuase they realized through studying what Jesus has taught that church is hypocritical to the core.

first off, church is the body of Christ. not a little building sitting on a hilll or men repeating verses in the bible you should already know. its not a place you go to. and there is nothing in the gospel saying you need to go to church every sunday for once an hour. THAT is for the LAZY people. becuase lazy people need to be told what to do.

Christ had set up a spiritual path - not a religious path.
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I mostly agree with you but I think it&#39;s still a good thing to go to "church" every week. It&#39;s good for worshiping God together and learning about him and being with other christians. I think a lot of people kind of forget about God and going to church every week sort of gets them "back on track". A christian who doesn&#39;t go to church is sort of like a football player who isn&#39;t on a team.

But I agree with everything you said.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

I mostly agree with you but I think it&#39;s still a good thing to go to "church" every week. It&#39;s good for worshiping God together and learning about him and being with other christians. I think a lot of people kind of forget about God and going to church every week sort of gets them "back on track". A christian who doesn&#39;t go to church is sort of like a football player who isn&#39;t on a team.

But I agree with everything you said.
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no, you didnt understand. becuase a building or organization is not the body of christ. a christian who does not go to church has not seperated themself from the &#39;team&#39; but is being apart of the real &#39;team&#39; and seeks other members who have left church to be apart of the true living church.

church hasnt taught me anything about God - what something new are you learning every sunday??- Everything I have learned about God was learned outside of church. As for getting back on track, like I said, church is good for lazy christians who need to get back on track every sunday.

but when you walk the spiritual path you dont need a certain day of the week to do this. A true christian worships, prays or meditates every day. They dont have to wait till sunday to do this. And as for receiving the body and blood and christ, are you going to tell me you poop out christ weekly? If you have absolute faith in the holy communion, then one time is enough.

the path of the christian is not to be a happy church-going member, eat sunday bar bqs, or play on a church football team, but to develop a personal and intimate relationship with God - and for a lot of christians - conventional church will actually get in the way of this. Conventional church serves its function as a stepping stone, but its pointless if you dont eventually leave to walk to the spiritual path.

Originally Posted by juroara

I hate to burst your bubble on something, but, a lot of christians have stopped going to church becuase they realized through studying what Jesus has taught that church is hypocritical to the core.[/b]

How so? How was Jesus&#39; teachings hypocritical? Please provide an example.
If you are talking about some Christians being hypocritical, I understand. Otherwise I am confused?

Originally Posted by juroara

first off, church is the body of Christ. not a little building sitting on a hilll or men repeating verses in the bible you should already know. its not a place you go to. and there is nothing in the gospel saying you need to go to church every sunday for once an hour. THAT is for the LAZY people. becuase lazy people need to be told what to do.[/b]

Church provides a way for people to gather with the same exact beliefs and teach on them. And there is scripture saying that "fellowship among the followers of Christ" is needed. It provides Many benefits for them. I am sure you like to hang out with people that have the same interests as you correct?

Originally Posted by Talon

How so? How was Jesus&#39; teachings hypocritical? Please provide an example.
If you are talking about some Christians being hypocritical, I understand. Otherwise I am confused?
Church provides a way for people to gather with the same exact beliefs and teach on them. And there is scripture saying that "fellowship among the followers of Christ" is needed. It provides Many benefits for them. I am sure you like to hang out with people that have the same interests as you correct?
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I said the church was hypocritical - for a church to be hypocritical it means it does not follow Jesus teachings. Not the other way around.

Now, I was raised catholic - so Im sorry I cant speak for all churches, obviously they are all different. But I have a question to ask you - do you believe organized churches are the same thing as
fellowship?

Is, going to a mass to listen to a man regurgitate the bible - fellowship?

Is, never being allowed to raise your hand to ask a question on what is being said - fellowship?

Is, never being allowed to give your own intrepretation of scripture - fellowship?

Is, raising, sitting, knealing, praying or singing when TOLD to raise, sit, kneal, pray or sing - fellowship?

Are rules, such as, such and such person does not have the right to read from the holy bible at certain times during the mass - fellowship?

Are rules such as, such and such person does not have the right to holy communion - fellowship?

sigh - church is raising hypocrites. Prayer and worship must be done from the heart. Do you honestly believe that every single person at church is praying or worshipping from the heart, or becuase they are supposed to? Or because, a priest told them to? You realize Jesus himself said something to the extent if its not from the heart, you might as well be lying? Do you have any clue how many years a catholic does something becuase they are supposed to, before they even question "am I doing this becuase I want to?". Do you realize how many catholics go to church becuase they are afraid to look like a bad christian if they dont? Which do you think is better? Leaving, or living a lie?

I realized I needed to pray and worship from the heart, not on command, not out of dogma, not out of tradition, or culture, or to make myself look good in front of other christians. So I left. And ive got news for you, so have others. You should recognize this as a good thing. Leaving a building, called church, is not a bad thing. They are still apart of the true church - and they can be apart of it even more.

Organized church is hypocritical, just by BEING an organized religion. Why? Jesus simply did not set up an organized religion. Jesus did not give us rules. Jesus did not even set up a religion, or orthodox. He gave us a way. We were to live by the way, not by rules.

Even singing on command becuase youre supposed to sing is hypocritical *and no one sang in my church, so they brought in an electric guitar and modern drums to make the songs even cheasier and crappier* - those songs lifted no ones spirits. Everyone felt too embarrassed to sing them. No one got anything out of them. It was just SAD. Or even you can ask, does the term fellowship give you an image of friends, or strangers?

Heres an example of REAL fellowship. My family gets together for the holidays. We turn off the tv. We gather instruments, and we sing. Not becuase someone told us to. Not becuase a little book says sing this song on this day - we choose which songs to sing. We choose when to sing it, we choose how to sing it.

Heres another example of REAL fellowship. I sit down with other christians of other faiths, we open the bible and we discuss. We dont listen to one person telling us what to think, what to believe. We QUESTION. We seek our own answers.

And as for church, a building, being a place of worship - so is a damn forest. And id rather worship in a place carved by God than mans hands.

Originally Posted by Talon

Ah.....then I agree with saying that many MEMBERS of the church are like that, but the religion/church itself is not.
[/b]

I disagree. I think the catholic church is a thousand times more hypocritical than any of its members. It is flawed at its core.

Originally Posted by juroara

I said the church was hypocritical - for a church to be hypocritical it means it does not follow Jesus teachings. Not the other way around.

Now, I was raised catholic - so Im sorry I cant speak for all churches, obviously they are all different. But I have a question to ask you - do you believe organized churches are the same thing as
fellowship?

Is, going to a mass to listen to a man regurgitate the bible - fellowship?

Is, never being allowed to raise your hand to ask a question on what is being said - fellowship?

Is, never being allowed to give your own intrepretation of scripture - fellowship?

Is, raising, sitting, knealing, praying or singing when TOLD to raise, sit, kneal, pray or sing - fellowship?

Are rules, such as, such and such person does not have the right to read from the holy bible at certain times during the mass - fellowship?

Are rules such as, such and such person does not have the right to holy communion - fellowship?

sigh - church is raising hypocrites. Prayer and worship must be done from the heart. Do you honestly believe that every single person at church is praying or worshipping from the heart, or becuase they are supposed to? Or because, a priest told them to? You realize Jesus himself said something to the extent if its not from the heart, you might as well be lying? Do you have any clue how many years a catholic does something becuase they are supposed to, before they even question "am I doing this becuase I want to?". Do you realize how many catholics go to church becuase they are afraid to look like a bad christian if they dont? Which do you think is better? Leaving, or living a lie?

I realized I needed to pray and worship from the heart, not on command, not out of dogma, not out of tradition, or culture, or to make myself look good in front of other christians. So I left. And ive got news for you, so have others. You should recognize this as a good thing. Leaving a building, called church, is not a bad thing. They are still apart of the true church - and they can be apart of it even more.

Organized church is hypocritical, just by BEING an organized religion. Why? Jesus simply did not set up an organized religion. Jesus did not give us rules. Jesus did not even set up a religion, or orthodox. He gave us a way. We were to live by the way, not by rules.

Even singing on command becuase youre supposed to sing is hypocritical *and no one sang in my church, so they brought in an electric guitar and modern drums to make the songs even cheasier and crappier* - those songs lifted no ones spirits. Everyone felt too embarrassed to sing them. No one got anything out of them. It was just SAD. Or even you can ask, does the term fellowship give you an image of friends, or strangers?

Heres an example of REAL fellowship. My family gets together for the holidays. We turn off the tv. We gather instruments, and we sing. Not becuase someone told us to. Not becuase a little book says sing this song on this day - we choose which songs to sing. We choose when to sing it, we choose how to sing it.

Heres another example of REAL fellowship. I sit down with other christians of other faiths, we open the bible and we discuss. We dont listen to one person telling us what to think, what to believe. We QUESTION. We seek our own answers.

And as for church, a building, being a place of worship - so is a damn forest. And id rather worship in a place carved by God than mans hands.
I disagree. I think the catholic church is a thousand times more hypocritical than any of its members. It is flawed at its core.
[/b]

I understand your points.... I wasn&#39;t raised Catholic... frankly, I don&#39;t know anything about Catholicsism. You have made excellent points my friend but frankly that can&#39;t be said about all churches. My church was able to ask questions and believed that it did come from the heart and church was a way of fellowship for us. Unfortunatley i guess it can&#39;t be said about all of them.
When I was going to church, after a lolt of us would go to dinner. We would hold bible studies and things of that nature and even just go over to be friendly rather than studdy all the time. The catolic church may be that way, but that does not mean all of them are. Seems like you would have a great time in a baptist or other type of church&#33; I completely agree.

Originally Posted by juroara

Leaving, or living a lie?
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Don&#39;t give two options when there are more to choose from. How about staying and praying from your heart? I go every Sunday not because I have to, but because i WANT to, whether you would like to believe that or not. My church interprets the bible rather than reads from it. The priest even sticks around after words if anyone would like to ask questions. Churches are open at other times other than mass to pray, but when in a large group, it is proper to have order rather than chaos. The priest knows the best ways of group worship to the Lord and is able to instruct the masses. Standing, kneeling, and sitting is all done in unison to show we are united as a group when we come together in the church. Other hours, we pray as we please, when we please.

So to answer your many questions about fellowship: no, not really, in my opinion. Because in the churches I&#39;ve visited, I don&#39;t see much of that at all. I think you are just finding the bad parts about the church instead of discovering why they are there in the first place, why we built them, and why we do what we do. I don&#39;t honestly believe EVERY single person is praying from their heart in church, but my family and friends who go DO.

Church is considered the body, the home, of God and Christ, so it really isn&#39;t just a "building". Man may have built it, but he built it and used it for spiritual reasons.

"I disagree. I think the catholic church is a thousand times more hypocritical than any of its members. It is flawed at its core."

In your way of looking at it, maybe. In the way you are supposed to look at it, definitely not.

Your points were interesting and they seemed true, but thats because of the perspective they were taken from. Go to a better church, look at the people around you who AREN&#39;T the mindless slaves, but the worshipers of the heart. Realize the goodness of the things creating in God&#39;s name rather than the bad. Then maybe you&#39;ll change your mind.

-Dynamo

I have to kindly disagree with a lot of that. The church is metaphorically the body of Christ, because it is one of the most holy places you can go to. You have every other day and hour of the week to seek other people out to go to Church and be pulled into Christianity.

If you pay attention and think about what the Priest tells you, you will learn a lot about God in church...unless your Priest sucks. Its great if you are reading the Bible or doing other things to promote your religion, because that is almost what you are EXPECTED to do in the first place. Church is about the farthest thing from laziness, UNLESS you are doing nothing else and don&#39;t even want to go. Church pulls people back who AREN&#39;T doing anything else, and REGENERATES people who ARE doing something else.

Sunday is the Sabbath, the rest day, the day of God. It is even specified that you are supposed to take this day off and worship or pray to him, which is why most people go to church on Sunday. Others, like my Dad during lent, go every day (I don&#39;t have the time in the morning because it overlaps school, but I WOULD). You don&#39;t think about eating and pooping him out every week / day. It is a reminder and a regenerator of what he actually did for us.

While there a lot of people who are like the first sentence in your paragraph, there are also a many who go to church but also have very deep relationships with God. Church CAN get in the way in small instances, but its MUCH more of a good thing than a bad. While you should leave the path to gather information and worship on your own, you should stray back to your original track now and then to realize why you did all of this in the first place.

Dynamo

Originally Posted by Dynamo

I have to kindly disagree with a lot of that. The church is metaphorically the body of Christ, because it is one of the most holy places you can go to. You have every other day and hour of the week to seek other people out to go to Church and be pulled into Christianity.

If you pay attention and think about what the Priest tells you, you will learn a lot about God in church...unless your Priest sucks. Its great if you are reading the Bible or doing other things to promote your religion, because that is almost what you are EXPECTED to do in the first place. Church is about the farthest thing from laziness, UNLESS you are doing nothing else and don&#39;t even want to go. Church pulls people back who AREN&#39;T doing anything else, and REGENERATES people who ARE doing something else.

Sunday is the Sabbath, the rest day, the day of God. It is even specified that you are supposed to take this day off and worship or pray to him, which is why most people go to church on Sunday. Others, like my Dad during lent, go every day (I don&#39;t have the time in the morning because it overlaps school, but I WOULD). You don&#39;t think about eating and pooping him out every week / day. It is a reminder and a regenerator of what he actually did for us.

While there a lot of people who are like the first sentence in your paragraph, there are also a many who go to church but also have very deep relationships with God. Church CAN get in the way in small instances, but its MUCH more of a good thing than a bad. While you should leave the path to gather information and worship on your own, you should stray back to your original track now and then to realize why you did all of this in the first place.

Dynamo
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my priest never even said God was loving. Im sorry, there is nothing for me at church, and there is nothing many more thousands of christians at church. the path is not the same for everyone. I never want to go back.