Thread: I challenge you...

The whole point of religion is to believe a religion is right. If there was proof that one religion was right, everyone would be of that religion. You are being annoying by asking for someone to prove to you that god exists when you already know there is no physical proff.

Originally Posted by xcrissxcrossx

The whole point of religion is to believe a religion is right. If there was proof that one religion was right, everyone would be of that religion. You are being annoying by asking for someone to prove to you that god exists when you already know there is no physical proff.

QFT

It's called faith because you don't have real solid proof, you have faith that what you believe is right. That is what annoyed me about that nightline debate wherehe was going to prove God 100% with science, because if he could it wouldn't be a religion at all, the whole point is that you have faith because you don't know.

Originally Posted by Beef Jerky

... to convince me that God or a god exists.

Hi. Just found these forums recently and I am reading up a lot on Lucid Dreaming, but I thought I would stop in the Religion forums for a bit too

Anyways, really really fast background on me. I am a Catholic living in Texas. I recently started/transfered to a Catholic University and I am studying Theology and Catechetics. I also have a lot of history with atheists, since my best friend is one.

Anyways, let me start by saying that there is no scientific proof for God, just as there is no scientific proof against Him. There are, however, several things that we can look at in the natural world that point to a God. Some people may have talked about them, but I will briefly present them and then anyone can ask for more detail. There are about five, but I will present the few that I think are strongest and easiest to see. A lot of these are very heavily metaphysical, and require a great deal of time to explain in depth, but I will try.




1. The argument from Design
Where we see design we expect a designer. We see design in the universe. Therefore, we say that there is a universal designer, we call this designer God.

This argument is essentially that we can see elements of the universe that fit so perfectly that there is no other possible explanation other than design. Many atheists try to claim things like "It all happened by chance". Chance is not a force! If I flip a coin, the coin lands on heads or tails 100% based on factors such as how hard I flip it, the surface it lands on, the wind, etc. Chance cannot make anything happen. There is a lot of detail I can go into here, but you can start by looking out a window. Or heck, even look at a hippopotamus, that tells us that God even has a sense of humor!




2. The argument from First Cause
Some things are caused. Everything that is caused is caused by something else. An infinite chain of causes is impossible. There must be an uncaused cause, we call this cause God.

Imagine you are in a store waiting in a long line, and someone falls on you. You look, they fell because someone fell on them. They fell because someone fell on them. This continues until the line goes out of your view. You assume that someone outside of your view was the first to fall, and this person could not have had someone fall on them, someone had to be first.

Also, some atheist say "Well who/what caused God if everything has a cause!" Well, not everything has a cause. The overarching principle is the principle of Sufficient Reason that states everything must have a reason. You only need a cause if there is a change, you CAUSE something to fall from being stationary. We say that God has never changed (which can be proven metaphysically) and there for does not have a cause, only a sufficient reason. He is the uncaused cause.




3. The argument from Contingency
We are contingent beings. It is impossible for everything to be a contingent being. There must be a non-contingent being. We call this being God.

Ok, warning, if you arent ready for metaphysics move on. I will try and explain as simply as possible and I can go into more detail later if anyone wants to talk about this one.

Basically we know that we exist, but we are in a category of existence called "Contingent Existence". This means that we COULD not exist. Any being that ever has the option of non-existence is contingent. This means that every human being is contingent because 100 years ago, no one reading this forum was alive. Therefore it is possible for all of us to not exist.

With that idea in mind, we know that we DO exist now, and that we were given existence from someone. So imagine this:

You come to be and ask me for a book that has all the answers in the universe in it. I tell you that I had the book, but it wasnt mine, I had it from a friend and gave it back to them. You goto them and they tell you the same thing, they dont have it, a friend does. This goes on and on. If the book actually exists, it must actually and concretely belong to someone. It is not just a concept, it is a real book somewhere.

The book, in that analogy, is existence itself. In order for it to be passed on, it must have come from someone that concretely has it. Because we are contingent, and are given our existence, we may be able to pass it on, but it had to come from someone that it was not given to. It had to have an author, someone that is not just handing it on.

This is probably pretty hard to grasp, it takes a little while of studying metaphysics to understand, but I think its extremely strong once you come to understand it.



4. Argument from Desire
Every real desire has some concrete object that can fulfill that desire. There is a desire in every person that no creature or object that we know of can satisfy. There must be such an object or person, we call this person God.

This is not one of the classical arguments, but I think it is a good one still. One reason that I love is because before I heard this argument, my agnostic sister who is studying psychology told me that there is a part of the brain associated with religious experience. At the time I thought nothing of it, but lets think about this. We desire food, there is food. We desire companionship, there are people. We desire shelter, there is shelter. We desire a greater reason for living, there is God. This isnt some abstract idea. There is a part of the brain that is associated with it! If you are atheist, then explain to me how there is one and only one part of the brain that causes a desire that can not be fulfilled!







Anyways, I know this is a big wall of text with out too much explanation for any one point. But I want to get across that the human mind is capable of seeing reasons for a higher being.

Christianity is not a blind leap into something that feels good. It is not a leap in the dark. It is a leap in the light that we take because we believe it to be true.

If anyone is looking for a serious discussion about anything, either these issues, the Catholic Church, Christianity, anything, then either post here, PM me, or start a new thread.

I could ask you the same question but reversed.

Prove to me that God doesn't excist.

It's just one of those questions that can't be answered.

Originally Posted by mynameismichael

Hi. Just found these forums recently and I am reading up a lot on Lucid Dreaming, but I thought I would stop in the Religion forums for a bit too

Anyways, really really fast background on me. I am a Catholic living in Texas. I recently started/transfered to a Catholic University and I am studying Theology and Catechetics. I also have a lot of history with atheists, since my best friend is one.

Anyways, let me start by saying that there is no scientific proof for God, just as there is no scientific proof against Him. There are, however, several things that we can look at in the natural world that point to a God. Some people may have talked about them, but I will briefly present them and then anyone can ask for more detail. There are about five, but I will present the few that I think are strongest and easiest to see. A lot of these are very heavily metaphysical, and require a great deal of time to explain in depth, but I will try.




1. The argument from Design
Where we see design we expect a designer. We see design in the universe. Therefore, we say that there is a universal designer, we call this designer God.

This argument is essentially that we can see elements of the universe that fit so perfectly that there is no other possible explanation other than design. Many atheists try to claim things like "It all happened by chance". Chance is not a force! If I flip a coin, the coin lands on heads or tails 100% based on factors such as how hard I flip it, the surface it lands on, the wind, etc. Chance cannot make anything happen. There is a lot of detail I can go into here, but you can start by looking out a window. Or heck, even look at a hippopotamus, that tells us that God even has a sense of humor!




2. The argument from First Cause
Some things are caused. Everything that is caused is caused by something else. An infinite chain of causes is impossible. There must be an uncaused cause, we call this cause God.

Imagine you are in a store waiting in a long line, and someone falls on you. You look, they fell because someone fell on them. They fell because someone fell on them. This continues until the line goes out of your view. You assume that someone outside of your view was the first to fall, and this person could not have had someone fall on them, someone had to be first.

Also, some atheist say "Well who/what caused God if everything has a cause!" Well, not everything has a cause. The overarching principle is the principle of Sufficient Reason that states everything must have a reason. You only need a cause if there is a change, you CAUSE something to fall from being stationary. We say that God has never changed (which can be proven metaphysically) and there for does not have a cause, only a sufficient reason. He is the uncaused cause.




3. The argument from Contingency
We are contingent beings. It is impossible for everything to be a contingent being. There must be a non-contingent being. We call this being God.

Ok, warning, if you arent ready for metaphysics move on. I will try and explain as simply as possible and I can go into more detail later if anyone wants to talk about this one.

Basically we know that we exist, but we are in a category of existence called "Contingent Existence". This means that we COULD not exist. Any being that ever has the option of non-existence is contingent. This means that every human being is contingent because 100 years ago, no one reading this forum was alive. Therefore it is possible for all of us to not exist.

With that idea in mind, we know that we DO exist now, and that we were given existence from someone. So imagine this:

You come to be and ask me for a book that has all the answers in the universe in it. I tell you that I had the book, but it wasnt mine, I had it from a friend and gave it back to them. You goto them and they tell you the same thing, they dont have it, a friend does. This goes on and on. If the book actually exists, it must actually and concretely belong to someone. It is not just a concept, it is a real book somewhere.

The book, in that analogy, is existence itself. In order for it to be passed on, it must have come from someone that concretely has it. Because we are contingent, and are given our existence, we may be able to pass it on, but it had to come from someone that it was not given to. It had to have an author, someone that is not just handing it on.

This is probably pretty hard to grasp, it takes a little while of studying metaphysics to understand, but I think its extremely strong once you come to understand it.



4. Argument from Desire
Every real desire has some concrete object that can fulfill that desire. There is a desire in every person that no creature or object that we know of can satisfy. There must be such an object or person, we call this person God.

This is not one of the classical arguments, but I think it is a good one still. One reason that I love is because before I heard this argument, my agnostic sister who is studying psychology told me that there is a part of the brain associated with religious experience. At the time I thought nothing of it, but lets think about this. We desire food, there is food. We desire companionship, there are people. We desire shelter, there is shelter. We desire a greater reason for living, there is God. This isnt some abstract idea. There is a part of the brain that is associated with it! If you are atheist, then explain to me how there is one and only one part of the brain that causes a desire that can not be fulfilled!







Anyways, I know this is a big wall of text with out too much explanation for any one point. But I want to get across that the human mind is capable of seeing reasons for a higher being.

Christianity is not a blind leap into something that feels good. It is not a leap in the dark. It is a leap in the light that we take because we believe it to be true.

If anyone is looking for a serious discussion about anything, either these issues, the Catholic Church, Christianity, anything, then either post here, PM me, or start a new thread.

That's like a "man made" thing you're talking about, it doesn't really prove anything at all, just terms people would understand. Animals, people falling like donimo's, etc. Sure, i can say a video game has a creator, but it proves nothing and never will except it was made by alot of different people, so it's human terms. I don't think it's actually possible to "think outside the box", and if it was then not a whole lot of people would even understand.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

That's like a "man made" thing you're talking about, it doesn't really prove anything at all, just terms people would understand. Animals, people falling like donimo's, etc. Sure, i can say a video game has a creator, but it proves nothing and never will except it was made by alot of different people, so it's human terms. I don't think it's actually possible to "think outside the box", and if it was then not a whole lot of people would even understand.

I'd love to respond but Im not entirely sure I know what you are talking about :/

If your video games comment means that you think that we can know there is a higher being but not that it is a God... Well then I will state the claim that we can know lots about God from the natural world and our own intellectual understanding. I can expand on this if you want.

I'm saying stuff like you said is man made terms, and stuff like video games has a creator but it doesn't mean we got created at all, just means we can create.

1. The argument from Design

If god can exist without a designer then so could the universe.

2. The argument from First Cause

If there must eventually be an uncaused cause, then maybe the universe is uncaused. If god can be infinite and uncaused so can the universe.

3. The argument from Contingency

Look into the beginnings of life (from a scientific standpoint) and evolution to find an alternative on that argument.

4. Argument from Desire

We desire a greater reason for living, there is God.

Humans are naturally inquisitive creatures. Im pretty sure everyone would like to know where he/she came from and why they're here. Should we make up a reason just to satisfy our desires as religion has done? Or should we use true logic and search for the answer? If we are open minded we can find the truth eventually.

Originally Posted by mynameismichael

This argument is essentially that we can see elements of the universe that fit so perfectly that there is no other possible explanation other than design. Many atheists try to claim things like "It all happened by chance". Chance is not a force! If I flip a coin, the coin lands on heads or tails 100% based on factors such as how hard I flip it, the surface it lands on, the wind, etc. Chance cannot make anything happen. There is a lot of detail I can go into here, but you can start by looking out a window. Or heck, even look at a hippopotamus, that tells us that God even has a sense of humor!

We desire a greater reason for living, there is God. This isnt some abstract idea. There is a part of the brain that is associated with it! If you are atheist, then explain to me how there is one and only one part of the brain that causes a desire that can not be fulfilled!

I agree with the above posters. You are looking at everything from a human standpoint and not objectively. I disagree with your chance denial. Quantum physics is proven, so you can't say chance doesn't exist, or that it doesn't play a part in this universe.

I can't believe that there is a part of the brain made for god. Please show something I can read and judge for myself. If I throw a baby into the wild, he won't become a christian or a part of any other religion. He'll just be the animal we truly are, without the thousands of years of research.

I posted replies to the two above posts, but the realized that I am responding to one sentence responses to my post that took more than 30 seconds to make.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!

I encourage searching for the truth, questioning everything, discovery, etc.
I will gladly debate/discuss/explain ANYTHING that I believe to ANYONE, under simple conditions. In fact, I can only think of one right now!:

1- You must actually be seeking the truth. You can not say "I dont belive, dont bother", on the other hand I will not say "I believe, dont bother.

This means you must put more thought into your arguments then a simple "I dont think so"


Feel free to take one issue at a time, listen to what I claim, think about it, and then respond. Coming into a thread, scanning and posting within 5 minutes of coming here is an insult to the entire field of philosophy!!!


If you would like to expand on a claim, present it in a well thought out fashion, and then search for the truth with me, then please, I encourage it!

If you are here from the viewpoint of "lolrelgion" and dont want to put an ounce of thought into the debate, then please dont come to this subforum!

I posted replies to the two above posts, but the realized that I am responding to one sentence responses to my post that took more than 30 seconds to make.

Sorry my replies didnt fit your response criteria :p. The point of my post was not to prove religion wrong (in which case i would've written an essay for each of your arguments trying to prove it).

You stated:

There are, however, several things that we can look at in the natural world that point to a God

Im simply showing that your points arn't necessarily pointing to a god, they could just as easily be showing something completely different. I dont see why mr. Jerky should in anyway become convinced through your arguments.

I should also add there's not an ounce of "lolrelgion" in me.

I am perfectly willing to discuss the posibility of pantheism (that the world is the absolute being), or any other theory.

But the core issue is that we can see that there is something higher than us.

This is something that we can see in the natural world without any aid.

One way to check this is to look towards isolated indegenous populaltions. They have at least some belief in a higher being.


One of my greatest insights into a higher being is not from a religious theologian, but from ancient philsophers like Plato and Aristotle. They laid out all of the foundation of metaphysics, which I believe clearly points to a God, and can even tell us many things about him.

Things I think that a purely intellectual voyage in metaphysics can teach us:
There is a God.
He is a real, concrete, substantial, personal being.
He is all of the pure perfects, unlimited by all contingent constraints. ("God is love")
He is all of the perfections hinted at in the mixed perfections (God is not quick, quickness is a contingent attribute, but God can transcend quickness)
There are not many Gods (The Trinity is a belief in one God)

All of this is found out 100% with our rational minds, without any divine revealation. It is not old or out of date philosophy. Modern Science does not contradict any bit of it.

Metaphysics is perhaps my favorite class because it pre-supposes nothing, and proves so much. So please, lets talk about it

Originally Posted by mynameismichael

I posted replies to the two above posts, but the realized that I am responding to one sentence responses to my post that took more than 30 seconds to make.

Rooj countered all of your arguments (and said almost exactly what I would have said). The fact that he did not dissect your post sentence by sentence is not a reasonable basis for your refusal to retort. You got rude and acted like nothing was said to counter your arguments when in fact all of them were countered. I would love to know what your retort is, if you have any.

Mainly, if the existence of a design proves a conscious designer, why would the existence of God not prove that he was designed? If you can make an exception with God on that, why can't you make an exception with the universe/mulitiverse or metaphysical system it might be part of?


Bill O'Reilly almost made me fall out of my chair with bafflement the other night when he said that the fact that we can't explain why the universe is here proves that something conscious designed it. If anybody agrees with that "argument" (or leap to a conclusion) please explain why.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Bill O'Reilly almost made me fall out of my chair with bafflement the other night when he said that the fact that we can't explain why the universe is here proves that something conscious designed it. If anybody agrees with that "argument" (or leap to a conclusion) please explain why.

Yeah thats what annoys me so much. I mean beofre we knew about what caused diseases. We used to say people were posessed by demons, when they got better God had cured them, unless of course a priest had already gone and tried trepanation on the unfortunate person.

Now we know it is infact bacteria, viruses, fungi and other microbial lifeforms that cause diseases. It seems to me that religion was helpful in the past to explain what people just couldnt fathom, it helped them and comforted them in some circumstances.

I still believe religion is the infancy of humanity, even a Chrisitian will admit that the idea of Zeus or Raah is just silly and fictional , haha a God living in the sun, cats being magical etc. So what makes you think that in a couple of thousand years either a new religion or no religion at all will look back on Chrisitanity and go " Hahaha what were they thinking, a magical perfect place when they die, some huge being that looked like they did sitting on a huge throne watching them, ridicolous!!"

Originally Posted by joey11223

I still believe religion is the infancy of humanity, even a Chrisitian will admit that the idea of Zeus or Raah is just silly and fictional , haha a God living in the sun, cats being magical etc. So what makes you think that in a couple of thousand years either a new religion or no religion at all will look back on Chrisitanity and go " Hahaha what were they thinking, a magical perfect place when they die, some huge being that looked like they did sitting on a huge throne watching them, ridicolous!!"

You are only taking a limited perspective/interpretation of religion. Sure, most people back then probably thought that Zeus was an actual being just like some Christians today believe God is some invisible dude in the sky and there is there are actual places that are heaven and hell where you go when you die. This is all nonsense of course, but there have always been those who don't take religious symbols at face value and truly find spiritual meaning in them. When you start taking symbols back to their source instead of blindly following, you begin to see that it doesn't matter what the religion is or when it was from. You can find truth in all religions, and in fact will find that they are all connected in essence.

yes but i'm saying the literal things you are told about religion now adays is silly. The bible is Gods word, so there is obviously heaven and hell if you are a Christian.

But yes any religion has spiritual believe, its just people use it for power and their own selfish aims. Personally though i still think all spiritually is in your head, but if it makes you a peaceful person and happy then great.

The only thing i could believe is other dimensional beings, which yes i guess you could call spirits, though i wouldn't. But i doubt those dimensions could across over, like 2d cant become 3d for a second then go back, they are set. Though i suppose we could see the effects of their existance, energy discharges and stuff. Also i suppose your dreams could be argued as another dimension by some, and so spirit guides would be actual beings to those who have them, interesting but i'd rather not try and fathom all that and just live my life.

I'm a Christian and I don't believe God is a huge guy sitting in a throne in the sky. That's as silly as Zeus. God is a spirit, he doesn't have a body (except for Jesus who is God, who could've sit on a throne in the sky but chose to just live as an ordinary poor human.) And I think heaven and hell are places because God created us to be in a place (the Universe) and the Universe is a place. So he'll probably make heaven and hell places too. (And he said "I am preparing a place for you", talking about heaven.) We also get new bodies (at least in heaven we do) and what's the use of a new body if heaven isn't a place? I know we'll have new bodies because God created us to be in bodies and not just spirits like angels.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Bill O'Reilly almost made me fall out of my chair with bafflement the other night when he said that the fact that we can't explain why the universe is here proves that something conscious designed it. If anybody agrees with that "argument" (or leap to a conclusion) please explain why.

Does it surprise you that I was not surprised by Bill O'Reilly taking such a ridiculous point of view : )

Please tell me you don't like that man. Even if totally agree with what he says, he still has no right to act like such an abusive, intimidating, intolerant nitwit that just gets on top of people with the use of intimidation in a discussion, then shits all over the people (and over himself) with some badly argumentated shit. Then turns of the other person's mike if they aren't intimidated.

-

Sorry, off-topic.

-

Anyhow, of course the guy that started this topic Knew that all the religious people are, were and will be futile at proving some god exist. Heck, they can't even prove it is reasonable to believe in their god.

So nothing new here.

Well. Hmmmmmm. I'm thinking. Oh YEAH! What about visions?

There may be a god, but I cannot see such a god as omnipotent. Because omnipotence in itself is illogical, 'god cant transcend himself because nobody can top him, but he can transcend anything'.

I believe in logic... I cannot prove logic with anything other than emperical evidence.

Also, I believe in unifacationisim i.e. 'the devil did not plant dinosaur bones to confuse people'. The laws that govern the universe now are the same as they ever have been. They cannot change, at least not to our perception...

As far as the origon of all of this... it seems logical the only entity capable of infinate power is nothingness, absolute nothingness with absolute potential. Because you cant have nothing if there is not something to provide a complement to it, nothing in absolute has no meaning or boundry. And because nothing has to be there, nobody has to make it, logically fixing the maker of the maker contradiction.

... and for the feverant supporter of quantum physics... its false, every scientist knows that, or else no one would be searching for the grand unifying theory (currently exploring string theory)

To summarize, true nothing has absolute potential and cannot exist or any period of time as pure nothingness because its logically impossible. This gives it the power to assume any form it wills, in our case the universe.

I suppose god could be this universal nothinness... Christianity is logically flawed and made by men who may have thought they were divinely inspired but were not, the bible has been mistranslated (there is PROOF of this, just look at the different versions, the origin of which was edited by the catholic church... ever noticed the holes in the story of Genisus... cant spell anything) so even if they were, the meaning has been corrupted by the hand of flawed men. If you find faith, the only logically sane course to take is separate from the scriptures.

I firmly believe that all 'religion' is false, and if there is a god, he is FAR beyond the understanding of man. If we don't live in a false reality there is no life after death either. Thats another argument....

I'm a sane person if you talk to me about music or something less... out there...

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Mainly, if the existence of a design proves a conscious designer, why would the existence of God not prove that he was designed? If you can make an exception with God on that, why can't you make an exception with the universe/mulitiverse or metaphysical system it might be part of?


Bill O'Reilly almost made me fall out of my chair with bafflement the other night when he said that the fact that we can't explain why the universe is here proves that something conscious designed it. If anybody agrees with that "argument" (or leap to a conclusion) please explain why.

I quoted you but the post is not all addressed to you so don’t feel pointed out or anything

Well, it is arguable that the/this universe was designed or not. The main point is that there is always something else beyond. At one point, one has to consider the possibility that something conscious could evolve out of the chaos, capable of creating an entire universe the size of a marble (his/it's perspective) where things could evolve inside and become sentient too and perform the same trick...

Consider that while I wrote this, many galaxies were created, formed stars, formed planets where intelligent life evolved and faded away... Time is a very hard thing to grasp. But intertwined or recursive universes, I mean the possibilities are there…

What if the only interaction with the artificial universe was limited to flipping a few bits in there… Could you make a self evolving program?

Looking at DNA to prove god. Well, that is an interesting concept. Though, I find the mechanism that assembles and interprets the DNA code like a computer does with the program that allows you to read this message much more fascinating and a better place to start looking for intelligent design. I have not found a document that explains how it works... RNA, a subset of DNA defines the machine but... At one point we fail to know what is really going on.


You'd be surprised from the very little science knows, and how much of it is not accurate information..

I mean, when I was in school, they taught us electrons circled the atom center like the moon around the sun... They were wrong then. They are most likely wrong now.

Most scientist and religious views are stupid if you ask me. The funny thing is that, many scientific findings have some sort of metaphoric reference in many ancient texts/legends/religious beliefs, showing that it is likely that we either discovered the principle and forgot about it or someone/thing told us about it in a way we could understand it then. For all we know, maybe God is ancient reference to atom or qbits or DNA, and the meaning got morphed over time…

Anyway, how could we prove something we have no access to. It’s like asking computer game characters to prove they are in a computer simulation. With no point of reference, no trace of a computer in the simulation, who could explain it, in his own words no less…

One would have to teach them of the signs to look for as proof, but what would that be. Only someone from outside, plugging into the simulation would know.

It’s like in a dream, when the stars are less in the sky. It’s normal to the dream characters. Not for you though. So you know you are dreaming. To them, it’s all normal…

Someone associated religion and childhood of humanity… Science is only the teenage years. And we all know how psychotic teenagers can be…

I, for one, am done with my childhood beliefs and my teenage beliefs. I find flaws and truth in both of them… I was lucky to have met good [edit]I typoed god... how appropriate[/edit] people who showed me how stupid it was to believe in any principle without proper perspective.

Anyway rambling on, at the end, you are always left with one question.

Spoiler for And the question is:

I see... But what created that!?

Spoiler for And the awser is:

42

Originally Posted by vee

Well. Hmmmmmm. I'm thinking. Oh YEAH! What about visions?

Visions mean nothing. You can't proove them (yet) and they are no different from dreams or hallucinations.

That's because you have to have one sweetheart. If you had one, you would have no doubt of the difference between visions and dreams or hallucinations. A vision smacks you hard between the forehead. (While your awake or asleep or halfway asleep) Halfway asleep is generally what I call a trance. You never have to recall a vision. It is always with you. Its true they can never be proved. They can only be proved to the seeker. I challange you. Go seek one. (ha ha)
Vee

Originally Posted by vee

That's because you have to have one sweetheart. If you had one, you would have no doubt of the difference between visions and dreams or hallucinations. A vision smacks you hard between the forehead. (While your awake or asleep or halfway asleep) Halfway asleep is generally what I call a trance. You never have to recall a vision. It is always with you. Its true they can never be proved. They can only be proved to the seeker. I challange you. Go seek one. (ha ha)
Vee

The only 'visions' I've had where audio, the devil, 'a devil', came to me and told me I was going to die. I told it that I didn't give a shit and figured this out a long time ago. He then told me he could make my life painful, and I told him he was a hallucination. While he exclaimed I felt my body shake for a moment along with a brief inability to breath and my mind went blank. Then it was like my mind was truly at peace, none of the random bullshit that so common in my thoughts. It was 'very' real, especially the convulsions, which felt like something was trying to enter me from all directions at once. I was FAR from asleep. I still remember writing it down after the event, wonder where I put it.

Since around that time I stopped having nightmares... it seems so long ago now. But I know its in my head, I just give it all the credit it deserves, ideas are the most powerful moving force in the universe... you know... besides physical reality. Ideas are most powerful inside you own mind... I believe that is why faith can give such strength to people. Whether or not God exists, the idea of him is a powerful shaper of this world, for good and ill.