Why Assume The Source Of The Universe Is Conscious?

[Universal Mind]

We have discussed that issue a few times here, and the only actual answer I have seen anybody give is that his mother brought him lemonade when he was mowing a yard and prayed for lemonade and that his life got better when he became a Christian. I don't see how that proves that the source of the universe is conscious, even if the source of lemonade and life-improvement is conscious. We were just discussing the question in a thread about a different overall topic, and I think the conversation has pretty much gone dead, so I decided to start a thread on the issue. That conversation always goes dead before anybody gives me a solid explanation. I am very interested in understanding the theist perspective on this. The conversation almost always goes like this (I am going to borrow a few people's points I really like.)... theist: The universe is so complex, so mysterious, and so impressive that there is no way it happened by itself. That means God, the intelligent designer of the universe, exists. atheist/agnostic: Why do you think that proves God exists? God is supposed to be an even bigger deal than the universe, and you don't think God was designed by an intelligent designer. theist: God has always existed. His existence does not require an intelligent designer. atheist/agnostic: By that reasoning, the universe might have just always existed. theist: The universe had a beginning, so it required a creator. atheist/agnostic: If the universe had a beginning, then it could be the case that it is the manifestation of a timeless metaphysical principle or set of principles or part of a universe that had no beginning. Why must it be that the source has to be a conscious being with human emotions? theist (two possibilities): 1. I have faith. My prayers have been answered a few times. 2. (disconnected; no response) I can never get the conversation to go past that point, and I am very interested in seeing what happens when it does. #1, the only actual response, assumes that the fulfillment of prayers proves something conscious fulfilled them and that the conscious fulfiller is automatically the source of the universe. I want to know the argument behind that. I would also like to know what other responses could be given instead. So, theists, please tell me... How can you argue your side beyond that point? I am very fascinated by this topic, and I want to understand your argument. I just don't know what it is.

[Jeremysr]

atheist/agnostic: If the universe had a beginning, then it could be the case that it is the manifestation of a timeless metaphysical principle or set of principles or part of a universe that had no beginning. Why must it be that the source has to be a conscious being with human emotions?[/b] Human emotions? I don't think my God necessarily has emotions like we do like happiness. (Jesus does though I'm sure, because he's human.) I know this because happiness is caused by chemicals in the brain, and God doesn't have a brain. ( ) My main reason for believing the source of the universe is concious is because of the Bible: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us ..." For me the Bible is proof enough that God is concious like us. And the prophecies of the Bible, some even unfolding today (like the New World Order), make the Bible obviously the Word of God. (Was gonna post more but I got to go)

[juroara]

I stayed out of that conversation becuase there is nothing an theist can say to an atheist to make them believe in any form of cosmic consciousness - you just have to believe in it for whatever reason. mine are spiritual reasons that I hope science will one day dig into to :yumdumdoodledum: but until then, unless you are spiritual - believe in spiritual emotions - believe in spirit - then talking about this type of consciousness will just never be understood

[♥Mark]

Interesting angle, UM, getting the formalities out of the way like that, but I think the thread might as well just end at your post. you just have to believe in it ______________.[/b] I think this is the blank UM is trying to get you to fill in. Take any test you can find anywhere and I guarantee you that writing "for whatever reason" in the blanks will get you a failing grade.

[Chaos]

My main reason for believing the source of the universe is concious is because of the Bible: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us ..." For me the Bible is proof enough that God is concious like us. And the prophecies of the Bible, some even unfolding today (like the New World Order), make the Bible obviously the Word of God.[/b] The Bible was obviously made by a bunch of people w/ too much time on their hands and possibly a little opium. I'll admit, there is a lot of information in there that was probably true, but the majority of it had to be fiction. If I remember correctly, there is a scripture in the bible someplace that says that the bible never contradicts itself, yet it quite frequently does just that. There was actually a thread posted not too long ago about that. http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/inde...howtopic=45820 Also, the majority of the stories that are in the bible sound like stories you would hear in a Greek Mythology class. They are just as unbelievable and impossible. Really, is a guy whose strength comes from his hair really any more believe able than a woman who can turn people into stone just by looking at them? Then you have to look at Revelations. That chapter reads like a Stephen King novel. Though entertaining, I highly doubt that in the future humanity has to worry about being attacked by plagues of odd locust/scorpion/lion/horse things. That just sounds to me like a scare tactic to force people into believing in God. Oh and I almost forgot! During the time of the locust things, people will be incapable of dieing! Supposedly they will stay alive even if they try to kill themselves. Now, I would really like to see this.

[juroara]

Interesting angle, UM, getting the formalities out of the way like that, but I think the thread might as well just end at your post. I think this is the blank UM is trying to get you to fill in. Take any test you can find anywhere and I guarantee you that writing "for whatever reason" in the blanks will get you a failing grade.[/b] I dont want you to misunderstand what I'm saying. I meant that people have their own very personal reasons for believing in something. A lot of NDErs for example experience as cosmic consciousness - that is their reason for believing in a creator. The reasons are diverse - its different from people to people.

[Universal Mind]

So the, "This could not have all just happened by itself," argument is a dead end argument? That is the argument I have gotten most from theists. It is the "intelligent design" argument that is being pushed on the schools. I illustrated where it always ends up. Is there really nothing more the theist side can do with that argument? I actually do want to maintain a certain amount of respect for those who have "faith" and it makes them happy. I just don't want them pushing "intelligent design" on the schools as though it is some kind of intellectual structure of great logic and not just "faith".

[bluefinger]

So the, "This could not have all just happened by itself," argument is a dead end argument? That is the argument I have gotten most from theists. It is the "intelligent design" argument that is being pushed on the schools. I illustrated where it always ends up. Is there really nothing more the theist side can do with that argument? I actually do want to maintain a certain amount of respect for those who have "faith" and it makes them happy. I just don't want them pushing "intelligent design" on the schools as though it is some kind of intellectual structure of great logic and not just "faith".[/b] Theists will always think in the terms which fit their faith and reasoning. For the majority, this means you won't get too much out of them with this topic because it is something they just believe in and haven't reasoned themselves to believe it. You can meet some intelligent theists who will give you a good enough argument, but they are few and far between. Even one of my old Religious Studies teacher had his 'reasoning' ripped to shreds by me and this other guy in my class. If anything, you are just digging into a deep end which aetheists/agnostics are willing to go, but which most theists don't consider due to their faith and beliefs. I'm not trying to say theists are stupid (though you do get stupid ones... both theist and aetheist), I'm just saying they are less likely to question the world around them, since they perceive it to be the work of God.

[MrGrEmLiN]

The source of the Universe creates the Universe, therefore it's creating and to create something you have to be conscious of your creation. Also, consciousness grew from that source so it's probably conscious.

[Jeremysr]

The Bible was obviously made by a bunch of people w/ too much time on their hands and possibly a little opium. I'll admit, there is a lot of information in there that was probably true, but the majority of it had to be fiction. If I remember correctly, there is a scripture in the bible someplace that says that the bible never contradicts itself, yet it quite frequently does just that. There was actually a thread posted not too long ago about that. http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/inde...howtopic=45820 Also, the majority of the stories that are in the bible sound like stories you would hear in a Greek Mythology class. They are just as unbelievable and impossible. Really, is a guy whose strength comes from his hair really any more believe able than a woman who can turn people into stone just by looking at them? Then you have to look at Revelations. That chapter reads like a Stephen King novel. Though entertaining, I highly doubt that in the future humanity has to worry about being attacked by plagues of odd locust/scorpion/lion/horse things. That just sounds to me like a scare tactic to force people into believing in God. Oh and I almost forgot! During the time of the locust things, people will be incapable of dieing! Supposedly they will stay alive even if they try to kill themselves. Now, I would really like to see this. [/b] Why do you just believe what you hear? Why don't you read the Bible yourself and decide? Also read further down in the topic you linked to and you'll see that I explained all of the contradictions (that weren't really contradictions.) You're just believing what you want to believe and ignoring the rest.

[Universal Mind]

The source of the Universe creates the Universe, therefore it's creating and to create something you have to be conscious of your creation. Also, consciousness grew from that source so it's probably conscious.[/b] Thank you for giving an answer. That actually qualifies as a philosophical argument that gets to the heart of the specific issue. I talked about this in the other thread. Nonconscious things create other nonconscious things all the time. Water erodes the ground and creates rivers and canyons. Atoms share electrons and create molecules. Lava comes out of the ground and creates volcanoes. Fire creates ashes. Plants reproduce to create other plants. Creation does not have to involve conscious decision. Also, nonconscious things also grew from the source. Does that mean the source is nonconscious?

[bluefinger]

Why do you just believe what you hear? Why don't you read the Bible yourself and decide?[/b] Reading his post... he's obviously read the Bible in the first place. I've only read bits, but I've read enough to make up my mind. You're just believing what you want to believe and ignoring the rest.[/b] Same can be said for you, funnily enough...

[MrGrEmLiN]

I talked about this in the other thread. Nonconscious things create other nonconscious things all the time. Water erodes the ground and creates rivers and canyons. Atoms share electrons and create molecules. Lava comes out of the ground and creates volcanoes. Fire creates ashes. Plants reproduce to create other plants. Creation does not have to involve conscious decision. Also, nonconscious things also grew from the source. Does that mean the source is nonconscious?[/b] Well, if we look closer, plants and water and the ground all are under the laws of physics, so there is some consciousness in the behaviour of everything in nature. So if there is a creator, the existence of things that aren't self-conscious doesn't necessarilly imply that those things are consciousless.

[EddieSpaghetti]

I'm not sure which camp I belong to: theists or atheists. I certainly don't believe in the God of the Old Testament. And while I believe Jesus did in fact live and die I don't believe he was God manifest on Earth. I find myself arguing against Christians on this point, and against Scientists on their point that life is just an accidental phenomenon - that there could just as easily have been a universe with no life in it. There would seem to be good reasons to believe in a spiritual aspect of the universe, based on near-death experiences (especially those of children), psychic ability, out-of-body experiences, child prodigies. Something makes it possible to recall a pastlife, see things happen on the other side of the world, communicate thoughts and feelings non-verbally, obtain information about the owner of an article simply by touching it, influence a random number generator, heal the sick without medical expertise... the list goes on. Now, of course you can dismiss such things but that doesn't make them go away. Better to try to deal with them and learn how they happen. They are the little clues that something is going on that we don't yet understand. So, I don't care if you call it "spiritual", "supernatural", "metaphysical" or a "realm of consciousness" - there is an aspect of the universe dealing with consciousness that is not accounted for in the Standard Model of Physics since that model deals only with matter. And if you limit yourself to that model, the "clues" I mentioned above would not be there. They would not be happening at all. Yet they do. The clues indicate that your consciousness will survive the physical death of your body and join loved ones you know who passed away before you. The clues also indicate that some people are somehow able to see/hear/communicate with those in the afterlife. I've even read tales (and they may be nothing more than tales) about the difficulties of those who pass on in dealing with the fact that the afterlife is nothing like what they've been lead to believe by organized religion. All this just to say that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to discuss and study a spiritual nature of the universe, souls, the afterlife, without ever mentioning God. Consciousness may have been responsible in some way for the Big Bang. It may have been the moment God was born. He/She/It may be responsible for the evolution of matter and life in an attempt to understand itself. At some point Science and Religion have to merge in order that we can know what it's all about.

[blade5x]

-The universe is too perfect... almost like "it knew" we were coming.

[juroara]

I'm just saying they are less likely to question the world around them, since they perceive it to be the work of God.[/b] thats a matter of opinion and a very close minded view of theists in general. the same can be said for atheists who never question why thousands of people experience something that science has yet to explain, and that thousands of people believe BECUASE something - not just becuase it makes them 'happy'. leave that to the bible thumping fundies - they hardly make up the majority of theists. there are plenty of theist scientists. Even if I believe everything is the work of God, that still doesnt stop me from wondering how it all works, how it happens

[bluefinger]

thats a matter of opinion and a very close minded view of theists in general. the same can be said for atheists who never question why thousands of people experience something that science has yet to explain, and that thousands of people believe BECUASE something - not just becuase it makes them 'happy'. leave that to the bible thumping fundies - they hardly make up the majority of theists. there are plenty of theist scientists. Even if I believe everything is the work of God, that still doesnt stop me from wondering how it all works, how it happens[/b] Thus I tried to choose my wording carefully. Being 'less likely' doesn't automatically apply that they won't. I know there are theist scientists, and even just normal theists who look into Science as the way God goes about his work, but more often than not, I meet people who don't question the world as much because of their own beliefs. And with the experiences, the power of belief is quite powerful (placebo effect, etc), and its something Science doesn't understand fully yet. Hell, even the results of experiments can be influenced on whether someone expects to either see a certain result or not. With the whole thing of believing, its subjective. Whether someone experienced something they couldn't explain in an accident/meeting/etc, then depending on the person, they will either view it either as luck or as God being there for them. Science still has yet to explain what consciousness is, along with many things, but that shouldn't allow people to discredit Science. If anything, it just means Science isn't perfect, just like Religion itself. I hope that clears up what I meant...

[Neruo]

Human emotions? I don't think my God necessarily has emotions like we do like happiness. (Jesus does though I'm sure, because he's human.) I know this because happiness is caused by chemicals in the brain, and God doesn't have a brain. ( )[/b] Are you stupid? Never read the bible? If I recall correcty, in genesis it is said 'god was happy' or 'not happy' or something, with how the world turned out. Or content, whatever. Also "I am the LORD, a Jealous LORD." Or something like that, springs to mind. Also, god acts like a mentally insane person, if looked at psychologically. My main reason for believing the source of the universe is concious is because of the Bible: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us ..." For me the Bible is proof enough that God is concious like us. And the prophecies of the Bible, some even unfolding today (like the New World Order), make the Bible obviously the Word of God. (Was gonna post more but I got to go)[/b] lol. The bible isn't a proper argument, especially if you don't really believe it. You do either not believe it, or not follow it. It says clearly that you should stone gays and atheist. -

[MrGrEmLiN]

If I recall correcty, in genesis it is said 'god was happy' or 'not happy' or something, with how the world turned out. Or content, whatever. Also "I am the LORD, a Jealous LORD." Or something like that, springs to mind. Also, god acts like a mentally insane person, if looked at psychologically.[/b] Of course God doesn't experience human emotions. For some reasons they are HUMAN emotions. I don't know how anyone still follows the Bible! A jealous God? Hello! God is divine, he's above jealousy, sadness, happiness, and all of that. The only thing that could be associated with God would be the love for His creation. God acts as mentally insane? Could you explain that theory?

[juroara]

neruo, theism doesnt have to fit in a little box. theism does not have to follow the bible. a lot of people recognize a creator of some sort outside of christianity.

[Jeremysr]

Are you stupid? Never read the bible? If I recall correcty, in genesis it is said 'god was happy' or 'not happy' or something, with how the world turned out. Or content, whatever. Also "I am the LORD, a Jealous LORD." Or something like that, springs to mind. Also, god acts like a mentally insane person, if looked at psychologically. lol.[/b] It just says "He saw that it was good." It doesn't say He was happy. It does say He is a jealous God. But the sort of jealousy it means isn't an emotion. I think it means that he doesn't want you to worship any other gods. The bible isn't a proper argument, especially if you don't really believe it. You do either not believe it, or not follow it. It says clearly that you should stone gays and atheist. -[/b] That kind of thing were laws for Moses I think. Not me.

[Universal Mind]

It does say He is a jealous God. But the sort of jealousy it means isn't an emotion. I think it means that he doesn't want you to worship any other gods.[/b] Jealousy is an emotion. So are love and anger. The Bible talks about at least all three of those emotions of God. Doesn't the Bible also talk about how God was "pleased"? I also think I remember something about God being sad. What is at the root of that? Did God just HAPPEN to have existed forever with those emotions, and there is no reason for it? Do you think something like that could have just happened by itself?

[spoon]

I'm not sure anything can be both concious and the first cause: --- The first cause of the universe exists outside the universe Time is a property of our universe The first cause exists outside of time Conciousness is what lets you make a decision A decision is a change in mental state A change is a temporal event (change requires time) A decision requires time If the first cause of the universe was concious, it required time to make a decision If there is no time before the universe, no decision could have been made The first cause couldn't be concious. --- Is it valid?

[Chaos]

God acts as mentally insane? Could you explain that theory?[/b] >He uses scare tactics to try to get people to join his religion >He tells people to kill in his name (Crusades, Salem Witch Trials) >He floods the earth for absolutely no reason >He expects people to want to sacrifice themselves for him if called upon to do so (does this remind anyone else of a certain cyanide poisoning that went on at a certain church?) >He allows people to be tortured, not b/c they disobeyed him, but to prove a point >Toward the beginning he encouraged the sacrifice of animals >He had his own son killed off (you can't say he didn't, b/c that's what Jesus was sent here for)

[Northastings]

The universe didn't have a beginning.