Thread: The Subconscious/Brainwashing in Church

Wendylove, even those born into a faith still have to be converted

It is really easy to convert a child into religion. Teenage sucide bombers come to my mind.

Do you think I've gone my whole life without so much as questioning my religion? Do you think I blindly follow whatever my parents and church leaders say? To base my entire life on something that I think may be a lie would be absolutely idiotic.

People normally except what they told when they are children. You're heavily biased by religion and what you're told is correct when you are a child. So I guess you are blindly following what you are told.

Originally Posted by wendylove

It is really easy to convert a child into religion. Teenage sucide bombers come to my mind.

People normally except what they told when they are children. You're heavily biased by religion and what you're told is correct when you are a child. So I guess you are blindly following what you are told.

Very true. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy come to mind. I mean, how can you blame a child? The (minimal) evidence is always there, and authority firgures verify the story. I fail to see how religion is any different.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

tell me about it. Sometimes there is too much to think about, but for me, there is nothing to do BUT think, especially when high (Norcross GA is a VERY boring place, everybody does drugs). It gives me anxiety attacks.

Mind tricks are a bitch, and you're right, getting high normally doesnt do jack. It's a perpetual cycle that constantly solves itself with more drugs. Dude, i smoked so much dope i could only get high for 1/2 hour becuase of tolerance. Afterward i would just sit around (weed always made me avoid social interaction, other than smoke-buddies). Then it was the same BS the next day.

That is EXACTLY how it works with me. Every bit of it. And I spend that time sitting around being very lazy with a weak buzz wondering why in the Hell I keep smoking the stuff, but even in those same moments, it seems like Armageddon if I am about to run out. It makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is EXACTLY how it works with me. Every bit of it. And I spend that time sitting around being very lazy with a weak buzz wondering why in the Hell I keep smoking the stuff, but even in those same moments, it seems like Armageddon if I am about to run out. It makes no sense.

Im telling you, dude, weed is DEFINATELY addictive. No doubt about it. And you know what's weird, i think weed is different for every person. I have friends that somke just as much as i did, and dont have these problems. They are perfectly content with the lifestyle. It might be a coincidence that these people are not deep thinkers like me, but i doubt it. I think deep down i know how big of a waste of time smoking is.

Ive been through the phase you are in. You're burning out, and it takes a LONG ASS time. For me, about 3 years of that. Eventually you will get out of the rut, and start to hate it more and like it less, instead of that 50/50 bs. Thats when you will seriously start thinking about quitting. But who knows, you may be different and start liking it again. I have a friend who that happened to.

Very true. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy come to mind. I mean, how can you blame a child? The (minimal) evidence is always there, and authority firgures verify the story. I fail to see how religion is any different.

How many people who grew up being told Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist still believe it? I know I don't, however I still believe in the church I was raised in, as do billions of others.

]Quote:
Originally Posted by wendylove
It is really easy to convert a child into religion. Teenage sucide bombers come to my mind.

People normally except what they told when they are children. You're heavily biased by religion and what you're told is correct when you are a child. So I guess you are blindly following what you are told.

In 2006 the total membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stood at 12,868,606. The total increase of children of record was 94,006. The total number of converts baptized was 272,845. It may be easier to convert a child, but according to the facts it appears that free thinking adults are joining at a more rapid pace than children are being raised in the church.

And maybe I wasn't clear enough with my last post. I have questioned, I have examined, I have pondered and searched for the true church, if there was one, and I have based my decision on the evidence gathered. How can you consider that blindly following?

Originally Posted by 27

How many people who grew up being told Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy exist still believe it? I know I don't, however I still believe in the church I was raised in, as do billions of others.

How is that a valid argument? People stop believing in Santa Claus because, in fact, the parents set the presents out and the parents put the $1 bill under the pillow for the tooth. They know its not true, and the TELL you about it at a certain age. Nobody can disprove god, because there is no proof of god. The two scenarios are completely different, plus, no authority figure tells you god doesnt exist with 100% certainty, in the way your parents told you Santa DEFINATELY doesnt exist. That is why you can still have faith.

Best Brainwashing Video Ever -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

27 - Your argument is weak. It's not completely broken, but it's extremely weak. I'm not interested in insulting you or your religion, and I understand that some people in this thread have been a bit insensitive, but I'd strongly recommend you stop trying to argue your position. You are furthering the stereotype that mormons are all dogmatic crusaders who refuse to listen to logic.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Very true. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy come to mind. I mean, how can you blame a child? The (minimal) evidence is always there, and authority firgures verify the story. I fail to see how religion is any different.

I agree. That's not to say that believing in Santa Claus doesn't bring about some good, but personally, I'd rather know the truth. Even if it's less pleasant.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Im telling you, dude, weed is DEFINATELY addictive. No doubt about it. And you know what's weird, i think weed is different for every person. I have friends that somke just as much as i did, and dont have these problems. They are perfectly content with the lifestyle. It might be a coincidence that these people are not deep thinkers like me, but i doubt it. I think deep down i know how big of a waste of time smoking is.

Ive been through the phase you are in. You're burning out, and it takes a LONG ASS time. For me, about 3 years of that. Eventually you will get out of the rut, and start to hate it more and like it less, instead of that 50/50 bs. Thats when you will seriously start thinking about quitting. But who knows, you may be different and start liking it again. I have a friend who that happened to.

Man, I have been going around and around in that revolving door for 13 years now. I will quit for months at a time, but then the illusion that pot is some huge deal hits me like a tidal wave, and I go right back into the rut. But lucid dreaming has been helping me get a much better grip because it is a whole new outlet to explore, and it is one that pot doesn't mix with at all for me because pot stops me from having lucidity that lasts more than three seconds. The better I get at lucid dreaming, the less pot I will be smoking.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Man, I have been going around and around in that revolving door for 13 years now. I will quit for months at a time, but then the illusion that pot is some huge deal hits me like a tidal wave, and I go right back into the rut. But lucid dreaming has been helping me get a much better grip because it is a whole new outlet to explore, and it is one that pot doesn't mix with at all for me because pot stops me from having lucidity that lasts more than three seconds. The better I get at lucid dreaming, the less pot I will be smoking.

same with lucid dreaming for me. If i am smoking regularly, i cant remember any dreams. Nothing is more frustrating, especially when you know how freggin awesome LDs are. Ever since i quit (like 3months sober) i have been having a huge surge of them. It is definately an incentive.

You must be different than i am. 13 YEARS? Damn. Im starting to think there may be no hope for you. Maybe you'll go crazy.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

You must be different than i am. 13 YEARS? Damn. Im starting to think there may be no hope for you. Maybe you'll go crazy.

You were being such an excellent rehab counsellor until you said that. Or was that some kind of reverse psychology? You forgot about the lucid dreaming factor right after talking about it. And you'll be 35 some day too, so be careful with your own record.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You were being such an excellent rehab counsellor until you said that. Or was that some kind of reverse psychology? You forgot about the lucid dreaming factor right after talking about it. And you'll be 35 some day too, so be careful with your own record.

aw, i was just joking. I just couldnt fathom 13 years of that. As i said, the 3 years i had with it almost drove me "crazy". Dont think i actually mean "crazy" like "insane". The reason i got out of it was because i really REALLY wanted out. You might just be different. The reason it took me as long as it did was because i felt like life would be just that much more dull without the entertainment. And really, it did, but my life is becoming more "clear". You know that stupid shit you find yourself believing when you are high? It went away for me, and i started believing things that were actually true. I still cant believe you are 35 and are still going through this, and you are probably better off. Most of the people your age that i know have mellowed out and settled down. They dont think deep. They have their spouse, kids, and work. I hope i never end up like that.

This is the problem with drugs. They screw with your head big time. It doesnt ever seem to solve itself. I dont know what it is, but altered states of consciousness lure people. Plus, the people who want you to stay off drugs never tell you the truth about them. The war on drugs here is a joke.

I am a big opposer to legalizing drugs in America. I dont think American culture could handle it. It would give rise to a generation of drug addicts. Plus, finding awesome, secluded spots to smoke is part of the fun!

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

The reason i got out of it was because i really REALLY wanted out. You might just be different. The reason it took me as long as it did was because i felt like life would be just that much more dull without the entertainment. And really, it did, but my life is becoming more "clear". You know that stupid shit you find yourself believing when you are high? It went away for me, and i started believing things that were actually true.

That sounds excellent, but watch out. The craving can come at you like lightning out of the sky. It is usually the three month mark where it hits me, but it is usually the four month marker where I crash. I hear that if you can make it a year, things get a great deal easier. I haven't seen a year without pot since I was a teenager, but I am pretty damn determined to see one. It sounds like you're on pretty solid ground, but just be careful. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

I still cant believe you are 35 and are still going through this, and you are probably better off. Most of the people your age that i know have mellowed out and settled down. They dont think deep. They have their spouse, kids, and work. I hope i never end up like that.

I'm totally with you on that. What you said just made me think of something. I might be subconsciously holding onto drugs, particularly weed, so that I NEVER end up like the people you are talking about. That is exactly what happens to people when they get to their thirties. I resist being like that with everything I have. I think there is something in the genes that makes people turn lame when they get to family raising age so that they will have a lot of drive to stay home and play house. I am glad people want to raise families and be committed to them, but it sucks that so many of them turn out to be such sticks in the mud. I don't blame the family situations themselves. A lot of people have families and are still full of life, while way too many people from my past have grown up to be single and childless and are lame as Hell any way. They have no spark of will to make something fun out of anything. Getting them out of the house defies the laws of physics, and they don't even get into anything fun in the house either. They are always like, "Uh, nah, I'm just going to sit here and, duuuuhhhhhh, I'm just going to sit here." It's like a plague that spreads among people in their thirties. I vowed a long time ago to never be anything like that. I will always put the same effort into having fun I did when I was in college. Always! Maybe part of me thinks that holding onto drugs will hold onto that youthful spirit. From a logical standpoint, I don't think I need drugs for it. But that might explain what part of my drug problem is. But ironically, now that I think about it, I actually have more youthful spirit when I have been off drugs for a while, though the association between drugs and youthful spirit remains in my head somehow. I need to get rid of it. It's not necessary.

right at the beginning of my senior year at high school, my parents caught me. They threatened me with the "unannounced drug tests", so i didnt take the risk. I stayed clean all school year and through the summer. Well, almost. I smoked on 4/20 (the first time i was so stoned i had trouble driving). Then, you know, college, and what could i do? But still, i stopped phening after a month or 2. But, i did relapse, so i guess fully quitting is hard. I dont think i will have trouble this time, seeing as the Army is going to drug test me.

With regards to the whole "settling down" thing. I have heard that having kids brings about a biological change. This may be the reason (life isnt about you anymore), but then there are those who dont have kids, but still mellow out. To be honest, I have NO idea, but, as always i have a theory. I think those that settle down were never deep thinkers to begin with. Believe it or not, most teenagers dont think about this stuff. Really, this is a highly abnormal topic. Most of my friends are interested in MTV and puking at parties, not wether the possibility that time is figment of imagination or if god really is the devil. They dont WANT to think about this stuff. It causes them too much distress. Eventually these thoughts burn out and they mellow out. They become set in their beliefs. For me, i LOVE LOVE LOVE thinking about that stuff. It consumes a lot of my day. It may be abnormal, but i see becoming set in one's ideas as counter progressive. I love nothing more than to be prove myself wrong.

You know dude, i have always wondered what divides the shallow people from the deep people. What event? Perhaps ONE SINGLE THOUGHT early in life that creates a snowball effect? Even though i dont want to settle down, i envy those who can and be happy with it. Its just that i cant

How is that a valid argument? People stop believing in Santa Claus because, in fact, the parents set the presents out and the parents put the $1 bill under the pillow for the tooth. They know its not true, and the TELL you about it at a certain age. Nobody can disprove god, because there is no proof of god. The two scenarios are completely different, plus, no authority figure tells you god doesnt exist with 100% certainty, in the way your parents told you Santa DEFINATELY doesnt exist. That is why you can still have faith.

Half dreaming, I was trying to make the point that your argument was not valid. You said that you couldn't see the difference between Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and religion. Thats the difference. Most people stop believing in those made up things, but continue to believe in religion. Ok so the two scenarios are completely different. Then why did you say you saw no difference? There is a difference now? Does this strike anyone else as hypocritical?

27 - Your argument is weak. It's not completely broken, but it's extremely weak. I'm not interested in insulting you or your religion, and I understand that some people in this thread have been a bit insensitive, but I'd strongly recommend you stop trying to argue your position. You are furthering the stereotype that mormons are all dogmatic crusaders who refuse to listen to logic.

Naikou, sorry but your post stuck me as more than "a bit insensitive". Just because you say that you don't want to insult my religion does not give you the right to call us all "dogmatic crusaders who refuse to listen to logic." I have as much right to be on here as anyone else. So unless you have an intelligent point to make I recomend you refrain from making personal attacks.

Do you know the meaning of the word "stereotype"?

stereotype n. -

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

In other words, I said that mormons are not dogmatic crusaders who refuse to listen to logic. That is an oversimplified conception, an opinion.

So unless you have an intelligent point to make I recomend you refrain from making personal attacks.

You are the one making personal attacks. And hence, you are the one being hypocritical. Ergo, furthering the stereotype, as I said previously.

Originally Posted by 27

Half dreaming, I was trying to make the point that your argument was not valid. You said that you couldn't see the difference between Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and religion. Thats the difference. Most people stop believing in those made up things, but continue to believe in religion. Ok so the two scenarios are completely different. Then why did you say you saw no difference? There is a difference now? Does this strike anyone else as hypocritical?

You answered your own question, if it was a question anyway. Children don't believe in santa claus because billions don't and people believe religion because billions do. If all religious people started believing in the tooth fairy, it would become the new religion. There is absolutely no difference between those easter bunnies and jesus or whatever.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

You answered your own question, if it was a question anyway. Children don't believe in santa claus because billions don't and people believe religion because billions do. If all religious people started believing in the tooth fairy, it would become the new religion. There is absolutely no difference between those easter bunnies and jesus or whatever.

violence. violence it what lets a religion grow, even if it is directed toward the religion itself, in the case of Christianity. Having a book and a "promise of damnation" doesnt hurt. I still hold that Christianity spread as fast as it did becuase of the BS the Catholic Church made up.

They used to sell tickets into heaven, for gods sake.

Naikou, you said that I was furthering the stereotype that mormons are all dogmatic crusaders who refuse to listen to logic. How is that not a personal attack on me? Mormons have lots of stereotypes placed on them. I was not aware that that was one of them. Please point out any personal attacks I might have made and I will apologize for them (calling your point unintellegent is not a personal attack). I said what I said because your post consisted of;

1) You're wrong. (no reason given)
2) Stop posting.
3) Dogmatic crusaders

Bonsay, my point is that you can't just brainwash someone, even a child, into believeing something that's not true. A child growing up, being told about Santa Clause by all authority figures and media, will eventually reject the idea. Unlike most people and religion. If people only believe what many other people belive, how would smaller religions survive? Why would we have so many different religions? How would any religion have begun? The idea that people only turn to religion because many others have is ridiculus.

Half/Dreaming, how does violence toward a religion help it grow (not criticizing just cuiorius)? And what did the Catholic Church make up?

Howdy folks hope everyone is having a fun time. Anyways I was raised a Catholic realized it was a bunch of bullcrap. Became an Atheist for most of my life. Then I started hearing about God again became Agnostic. I eventually found a church full of Christians who taught the bible, read the bible, and practiced the bible as it was meant to be and found a place full of love and acceptance so now I'm a Christian and heading into ministry. With saying that I just want to say if you are ever trying to get a good look a Christianity don't ever ever EVER look at Catholicism. That is what happens when you take Christianity and try to turn it into a religion. You get a bunch of rituals. A place where people can go to feel good about themselves without actually learning anything, then they have to be hypocritical and narrow minded when it comes to other beliefs because they don't know how to actually defend it and rely on the "poopy-head" defense. A quick word to any Christian/Catholic that is reading this and is offended. Im just putting in ways where it doesn't sound nice, but is easily understood by Atheist/Agnostic readers. So as formally being their I'll tell you that all that ritual is brainwashing. I also want to state that in the bible it talks about doing all the stuff Catholicism does and teaches so much. Any further questions and I'd be happy to answer them.

27, look. I apologize. I really do. I don't mean that sarcastically. I didn't mean for you to take any of my comments as a personal attack. I simply disagree with you, and was saying, as a non-mormon, how your statements appeared to me.

Originally Posted by 27

does not give you the right to call us all "dogmatic crusaders who refuse to listen to logic.

Originally Posted by 27

Naikou, you said that I was furthering the stereotype

You see, even through the contradiction in your own posts, my meaning could be taken several ways. My intent was to call your responses dogmatic and illogical, not you, nor mormons in general. I have no idea whether or not you are that way, but that's the drift I got from your posts. If you don't want to listen to me, that's fine. As a representative of your religion, however, I would think that you would want to know how you sounded, and that you could possibly be deterring people from your religion, and furthering stereotypes of your religion.

If you didn't want to know that, or disagreed, you could have simply not responded, instead of getting defensive.

Originally Posted by 27

Bonsay, my point is that you can't just brainwash someone, even a child, into believeing something that's not true.

Do you seriously believe that? The holocaust makes me think differently. And don't say things like, "religion and the holocaust" are not comparable. The point is, people can be brainwashed. Large groups of people can be brainwashed into believing things that are not true.

It's even easier with religion, because the lies are not so blatant. Brainwashing people to believe that "You won't go to heaven if you don't join our religion" is immensely easier than brainwashing people to believe that "The Arryian race is superior and all Jews must die."

In other words, numbers mean little to nothing. Just because millions of Germans were brainwashed into believing that Hitler was a great guy, does not mean Hitler was a great guy.

Originally Posted by 27

Bonsay, my point is that you can't just brainwash someone, even a child, into believeing something that's not true. A child growing up, being told about Santa Clause by all authority figures and media, will eventually reject the idea. Unlike most people and religion.

And how exactly will the child know what is true or not? Will god tell him? Well, I don't think so. Whatever you teach him as true, he will keep it that way, untill he somehow decides otherwise.
I still believe that the Earth is round, because I was tought so, because books, TV, the internets tell me so. I have never traveled around the Earth or have any other way at the moment to prove it to myself. I believe that the Earth is round, not because it is true (it probably is, maby not), but because I trust the people around me (the majority of the human race) who gave me the info.
A child growing up will reject Santa Claus because of his environment and probably because it doesn't add up with the world he lives in.

It's much easier to believe in something that doesn't bring you presents every year, because you can't prove it. That way you can "delude" yourself into believing in it.

Originally Posted by 27

If people only believe what many other people belive, how would smaller religions survive? Why would we have so many different religions? How would any religion have begun? The idea that people only turn to religion because many others have is ridiculus.

Smaller religions survive because people tought eacother about them and kept them safe. Sadly, many didn't sruvive because "some other religions" were forced upon them.

We have so many religons because people had to come up with ways to cope with the world they didn't understand. Ofcourse they evolved differently because they were made by different people, who have different imagination and have lived differently all around the world. I mean look at the norse or the egyptian mythologies. You take a crocodile add an egyptian and get a god. Divine inspiration, I'm sure.

Religions have begun because of the reason I posted above.

The idea that people turn to religion because of others makes sense to me. If you throw a baby into the wild, you won't get a religious person 20 years lather. Probably if his people slowly evolved (for thousands of years), they would come up with a new religion.
I think it's a natural thing because of our ability to "think too much". You add some imagination and think about the world... you get religion.

look, the ENTIRE argument about indoctrinating childrent is flawed. One of you said "you cant just brainwash a child to believe something that isnt true". Well, only one religion can be the right one. Muslim children believe in Allah and Mohammad. Christian children believe in Yahweh and Jesus. So, you can brainwash a child into believing something that isnt true.

Naikou, It's cool, I shouldn't take things like that personally. I'll keep that in mind from now on. As for the brainwashing thing, I'm preety sure Hitler did more to brainwash people than have them repeat, "We hate Jews, Jews suck", which is the equivilent to what Half/ Dreaming said the catholic church does to brainwash it's members.

Bonsay, I'm sorry I brought up the Santa Clause thing. I was just trying to show that it was a flawed argument on behalf of Half/Dreaming. I thought the whole point of this thread was to discuss wether the catholic church brainwashes it's members. I don't think repeating a phrase will cause someone to believe something by itself. I also don't think lying to a child counts as "brainwashing". I've posted the reasons why I believe in my religion and it's not because I've been brainwashed. Many people join churchs dispite the wishes of their freinds, family, and community. They didn't join because it was popular.

Half/Dreaming, maybe I was wrong to say that. But do you really think you can brainwash someone just by repeating something as you said in your first post?

I half agree and half disagree. The only people who will get brainwashed are stupid people, because they won't bother reading the Bible and learning by themselves so they believe anything anyone says to them. But if you take time to think for yourself and then agree with the Bible you aren't brainwashed at all no matter who long you've been going to the church, it won't change what you believe until you come to terms with it. Apul you took the words right out of my mouth, the exact same thing happened to me, I was raised in the catholic church then just left and basically became an agnostic, then my family started going to a Bible preaching/reading church and I was so happy to see that there was a church like that. I was a Christian before going to that church though, I just wasn't going to any church for a while.